Sickening Story

[on-on]

These threads make me so mad, but at least a few of the posters already know what's what. Thailand has a huge problem with rape, trying to compare it to the west is just ignorance. If you really dont know how bad it is here then get educated. On top of it happening alot it is rarely prosecuted if it is even reported. HUGE problem.

Thailand's current issues with this kind of thing always seem to me to resemble America's problems several decades ago (and undoubtedly many other Western nations') for the same reasons that a lot of the good things about Thailand resemble yesteryear in other countries. Unfortunately, when society is governed by close-knit community and family structures and stricter social norms instead of legal structures and enforcement mechanisms you get a lot of bad along with a lot of good. Most people in America have mothers or relatives who can tell you about how they or someone they know was molested by relatives or raped by someone in the family/community without "reporting it" or about they or friends disappearing to the countryside (i.e. having a child out of wedlock) and coming back the next year with emotional issues. I wish I could figure out how you take out the bad parts of a more socially conservative society without removing the good parts, but I haven't seen a successful example yet.

I'm not suggesting the status quo is acceptable (it's horrible to hear about things like unreported molestation and rape), just that it's not as if Thailand is a particularly strange place and we all come from magical places. Thailand has a unique culture, true, but in many ways it simply seems to be on a different part of its development curve and has a more traditional social structure still that many Western countries opted out of decades ago as they dealt with civil rights, women's liberation, multiculturalism and all kinds of other issues that haven't been dealt with in Thailand to such a degree yet.

Edited February 13, 2009 by on-on

[Lix]

My ex-wife was raped by one of her classmates. This was how she lost her virginity.

She explained the she and her girl friend went to one of her male classmates house after school.

The male classmates told the girls they were to either let him screw them both or he would call his brother and he would bring his friends around and they would make a party of it.

My ex said ok, and she let him rape her but the friend said no and she paid the price, the older brother came with his friends and she was gang raped.

My ex staggered home and when her dad saw the blood on her legs etc he went ballistic, informed the police and the male classmate ended up spending some time in in a prison of some sorts. I am not too sure of all the details as my ex didn't want to get into them or didn't really understand as she was too young.

So, there was as far as I know a little justice metered out on that part, unfortunately the other girl didn't have any family members that cared enough and her gang rape went unoticed.

The ex spoke about it as though it was fairly normal occurance and not much of a big deal.

A few years later into our married life she let me know a little more about why the Dad was so p1ssed off and brought charges against the guy, it seemed the Mum had already sold my ex wife's virginity to some old Japanese sicko pervert <deleted> in Sriracha and since the ex was raped the Mum couldn't collect the money.

Unfortunately for Thailand that Mum had three daughters who all ended up on the game at the age of 16, helped out by their Mum....

Now tell me how any society in the world where a parent could ever treat their daughter(s) like this can teach the young men to respect women enough not to see them as walking TNA?

The most unfortunate part about this story is that all three daughters ended up marrying foreigners and have added probably a combined tally of around 100 million baht into the family so far, not bad for an Udon family who sold fish in the local wet market before they had a couple of girls.

All three girls have had failed marriages, have drug problems and all sorts of issues but the family have nearly 10 houses and apartments, several cars and so therefore the respect of anyone who knows them...

Makes me feel sick.

Virginity : This idolization of a flap of skin is one of the better examples of how women, ( AKA, " Girls " in Thai Visa speak) are sexualized beyond humanity, thus rape becomes commonplace and acceptable

Thailand isn't the only country where " Girls" are valued for sexuality above all. Back in US, it is impossible for " girls" between the age of 12 - 55 to walk on the street without a constant barrage of verbal sexual assault.

Meanwhile in Thailand Students forced to wear skirts , university students must wear heels , etc , it'a all systemic chauvanism and the entire immigration system has CENSORED Thai women, by way of marriage to foreign men - of which quite a large percentage of TV members posters are guilty .

Just the habit of referring to fully grown women as " Girls " ( if they are sexually desirable ) feeds into the systematic sexual objectifying of women.

Could you please confirm if this is fact. Do Thai school girls have to wear skirts? And above the knee at that? Is there not an option of trousers? And do Uni students have to wear heels? Surely this cannot be compulsory?

Could you also expand on what you mean by the immigration system having sensored Thai women by way of marriage to foreign men, (genuinely interested)

Thanks

[Sabum]

Wait... I know for a fact that girls break the dress code rules all the time to raise their skirt higher than is allowed, high heels? This sounds like someones mistaken impression.

[bonobo]

I am afraid that is the nature of the beast, and thousands of years of culture have helped define it. No amount of teaching is going to stomp out this sort of mysogeny.

However, there does seem to be a wane and flow of this type of thinking over time and through various cultures, so this does lead one to believe that education and even being PC (not to start a PC debate here) might be able to limit the amount of this type of thinking, or at least actions which reflect this type of thinking.

Aussiejosh makes some good points as to the English language. I do think the foudnation of this problem may very well be in the language. Language itself helps formulate thinking.

We may not be able to stop out anti-social behaviours, but perhaps we can lesson the frequency of anti-social actions.

I think education/teaching can change attitudes. The younger generation especially are more receptive and can benefit. Education via soap operas, schooling, movies. Actually I think some of the Thai movies have been showing the devastating effects rape can have already (albeit in strange ways, such as through horror movies..ie: ghostly revenge of a rape victim who killed herself - Shutter) Even if it takes time, generations even, baby steps are better than no steps at all. Also not just for rape, but assault, incest, domestic abuse, etc. Basic human rights awareness and understanding for men, women and children.

I realise its easy for me to sit on my bum and type this. Im not actively doing anything to provide those steps. Truly dont know where to start, but if someone can point me in the right direction, i would be happy do what I can to get involved and help.

As I wrote, education can help.  I don't think it can stamp out.

Don't get me wrong.  I am all for anything which makes any positive move forward.  Even one laess rapre is something great.

[bonobo]

There will always be rapists and child molesters. A sad fact. However; one key difference between Thailand and the western democracies is the way that the general public and the media react to such crimes. Fox news would be dogging officials who did not respond in a timely fashion. The bleeding hearts would put their "understand the sex offender" ideology aside, and rally to the side of the offender. Folks would be emailing politicians. Etc. Why? Because the west has developed a body of law that is the guiding light by which social progress can trudge it's road. From the time of the Mayflower, raping a child has been considered a capital crime. Sadly, this only applied to whites, but it illustrates the fact that western democracies are constantly developing. We screw up on a regular basis, yet we are always trying, through the democratic processes of elections, demonstrations, and a free press, to rectify our errors.

So , in order to calm the criers of 'racism', Westerners are no better, or no worse than the Thais. We have just developed, and continue to develop, under different sociological systems.

As to the treatment of child molesters, they are incurable. Do some research, and try and prove me wrong. One defense they use is high testosterone levels. Their lawyers claim that the defendants had no control, because the urge was too strong. When I was 25 I had triple the normal testosterone level, yet I had no urges or thoughts about rape.

They claim to be victims of prior abuse, yet they feel nothing as their victims scream. They are scum. Plain and simple. They should be given maximum sentences, and be forced to live with the violent sociopaths. Then we can see how tough they really are.

I hope and prey that, in order to kill the pain, the little girl will not turn to drugs, or develop a mental illness.

It is an unfortunate fact that rapists, and child molesters even more so, tend to have very high recidivism rates.  There is some truth to arguements that they can't help themselves.  SOme rapists, especially people involved in a gang rape, get caught up in the moment and can be rehabilitated.  But serial rapists and child molesters tend to be stuck in some sort of mental pattern.

So what do we do about these people?  Kill them like some posters advocate.  For the record, I am against the death penalty.  I think that brings society down to the level of the criminals.  Life in prison?  To protect society, that would work.  But it seems harsh for someone with a mental condition. and it is quite expensive.  I can live with it, but there has to be another way.

That is why I tend to side with chemical "castration."  Taking drugs which lower aggression and alter the personality.  Most liberals decry this as worse than the death penalty, a "cruel and unusual punsihment."  To me, it pretty much gaurantees that there won't be any more of these crimes by the perpetrator, it costs far less, and it lets the perpetrators lead some sort of life, albeit a changed one.

[HorseDoctor]

My ex-wife was raped by one of her classmates. This was how she lost her virginity.

She explained the she and her girl friend went to one of her male classmates house after school.

The male classmates told the girls they were to either let him screw them both or he would call his brother and he would bring his friends around and they would make a party of it.

My ex said ok, and she let him rape her but the friend said no and she paid the price, the older brother came with his friends and she was gang raped.

My ex staggered home and when her dad saw the blood on her legs etc he went ballistic, informed the police and the male classmate ended up spending some time in in a prison of some sorts. I am not too sure of all the details as my ex didn't want to get into them or didn't really understand as she was too young.

So, there was as far as I know a little justice metered out on that part, unfortunately the other girl didn't have any family members that cared enough and her gang rape went unoticed.

The ex spoke about it as though it was fairly normal occurance and not much of a big deal.

A few years later into our married life she let me know a little more about why the Dad was so p1ssed off and brought charges against the guy, it seemed the Mum had already sold my ex wife's virginity to some old Japanese sicko pervert <deleted> in Sriracha and since the ex was raped the Mum couldn't collect the money.

Unfortunately for Thailand that Mum had three daughters who all ended up on the game at the age of 16, helped out by their Mum....

Now tell me how any society in the world where a parent could ever treat their daughter(s) like this can teach the young men to respect women enough not to see them as walking TNA?

The most unfortunate part about this story is that all three daughters ended up marrying foreigners and have added probably a combined tally of around 100 million baht into the family so far, not bad for an Udon family who sold fish in the local wet market before they had a couple of girls.

All three girls have had failed marriages, have drug problems and all sorts of issues but the family have nearly 10 houses and apartments, several cars and so therefore the respect of anyone who knows them...

Makes me feel sick.

Virginity : This idolization of a flap of skin is one of the better examples of how women, ( AKA, " Girls " in Thai Visa speak) are sexualized beyond humanity, thus rape becomes commonplace and acceptable

Thailand isn't the only country where " Girls" are valued for sexuality above all. Back in US, it is impossible for " girls" between the age of 12 - 55 to walk on the street without a constant barrage of verbal sexual assault.

Meanwhile in Thailand Students forced to wear skirts , university students must wear heels , etc , it'a all systemic chauvanism and the entire immigration system has CENSORED Thai women, by way of marriage to foreign men - of which quite a large percentage of TV members posters are guilty .

Just the habit of referring to fully grown women as " Girls " ( if they are sexually desirable ) feeds into the systematic sexual objectifying of women.

Could you please confirm if this is fact. Do Thai school girls have to wear skirts? And above the knee at that? Is there not an option of trousers? And do Uni students have to wear heels? Surely this cannot be compulsory?

Could you also expand on what you mean by the immigration system having sensored Thai women by way of marriage to foreign men, (genuinely interested)

Thanks

Thai UNIVERSITY females must wear heels and skirts, any length ( ans some choose to wear very short skirts as they are trained that their value is in how attractive they are deemed by men, for sex.

It's all about differentiating females from males in a sexual way. Sexualizing them - like how breast have become sexualized when in fact this part of a woman's body has little to do with sexuality Or the virginity obsession , that being the first penis into the object is insome way ...prized .

And I firmly believe the immigration laws are purposely made difficult along with the FBA ( foreign Business Act ) rules so as to marry off Thai women to foreign men. It is a big business..

And look how rampant CENSORED is, yet it's " Illegal" but every other cop has his finger in the pie ...Systemic CENSORED makes this country go round. And when woman are a commodity, it's harder to humanize them

[mc2]

different unis have different dress codes. some unis are very strict about length of dress , dress above the knee is a big no no .

other unis the code is relaxed , some students are looking like hookers , anyhow its their choice if they want to dress like this

Edited February 14, 2009 by mc2

[kat]

My ex-wife was raped by one of her classmates. This was how she lost her virginity.

She explained the she and her girl friend went to one of her male classmates house after school.

The male classmates told the girls they were to either let him screw them both or he would call his brother and he would bring his friends around and they would make a party of it.

My ex said ok, and she let him rape her but the friend said no and she paid the price, the older brother came with his friends and she was gang raped.

My ex staggered home and when her dad saw the blood on her legs etc he went ballistic, informed the police and the male classmate ended up spending some time in in a prison of some sorts. I am not too sure of all the details as my ex didn't want to get into them or didn't really understand as she was too young.

So, there was as far as I know a little justice metered out on that part, unfortunately the other girl didn't have any family members that cared enough and her gang rape went unoticed.

The ex spoke about it as though it was fairly normal occurance and not much of a big deal.

A few years later into our married life she let me know a little more about why the Dad was so p1ssed off and brought charges against the guy, it seemed the Mum had already sold my ex wife's virginity to some old Japanese sicko pervert <deleted> in Sriracha and since the ex was raped the Mum couldn't collect the money.

Unfortunately for Thailand that Mum had three daughters who all ended up on the game at the age of 16, helped out by their Mum....

Now tell me how any society in the world where a parent could ever treat their daughter(s) like this can teach the young men to respect women enough not to see them as walking TNA?

The most unfortunate part about this story is that all three daughters ended up marrying foreigners and have added probably a combined tally of around 100 million baht into the family so far, not bad for an Udon family who sold fish in the local wet market before they had a couple of girls.

All three girls have had failed marriages, have drug problems and all sorts of issues but the family have nearly 10 houses and apartments, several cars and so therefore the respect of anyone who knows them...

Makes me feel sick.

Virginity : This idolization of a flap of skin is one of the better examples of how women, ( AKA, " Girls " in Thai Visa speak) are sexualized beyond humanity, thus rape becomes commonplace and acceptable

Thailand isn't the only country where " Girls" are valued for sexuality above all. Back in US, it is impossible for " girls" between the age of 12 - 55 to walk on the street without a constant barrage of verbal sexual assault.

Meanwhile in Thailand Students forced to wear skirts , university students must wear heels , etc , it'a all systemic chauvanism and the entire immigration system has CENSORED Thai women, by way of marriage to foreign men - of which quite a large percentage of TV members posters are guilty .

Just the habit of referring to fully grown women as " Girls " ( if they are sexually desirable ) feeds into the systematic sexual objectifying of women.

Could you please confirm if this is fact. Do Thai school girls have to wear skirts? And above the knee at that? Is there not an option of trousers? And do Uni students have to wear heels? Surely this cannot be compulsory?

Could you also expand on what you mean by the immigration system having sensored Thai women by way of marriage to foreign men, (genuinely interested)

Thanks

Thai UNIVERSITY females must wear heels and skirts, any length ( ans some choose to wear very short skirts as they are trained that their value is in how attractive they are deemed by men, for sex.

It's all about differentiating females from males in a sexual way. Sexualizing them - like how breast have become sexualized when in fact this part of a woman's body has little to do with sexuality Or the virginity obsession , that being the first penis into the object is insome way ...prized .

And I firmly believe the immigration laws are purposely made difficult along with the FBA ( foreign Business Act ) rules so as to marry off Thai women to foreign men. It is a big business..

And look how rampant CENSORED is, yet it's " Illegal" but every other cop has his finger in the pie ...Systemic CENSORED makes this country go round. And when woman are a commodity, it's harder to humanize them

So well stated.

[neverdie]

different unis have different dress codes. some unis are very strict about length of dress , dress above the knee is a big no no .

other unis the code is relaxed , some students are looking like hookers , anyhow its their choice if they want to dress like this

You might think someone looks like a hooker....doesnt mean everyone thinks this way. Just because a woman wears a shorter style of skirt or whatever doesnt mean shes of poor moral value.....woman should be able to wear the clothes that either suit them or they feel good in without the fear that some WACKO or SICKO is going to do something nasty to them.

It is a truely scarey and sickening world we live in....its a pity we let scum roam the streets in such high quantity.

[jtp]

There will always be rapists and child molesters. A sad fact. However; one key difference between Thailand and the western democracies is the way that the general public and the media react to such crimes. Fox news would be dogging officials who did not respond in a timely fashion. The bleeding hearts would put their "understand the sex offender" ideology aside, and rally to the side of the offender. Folks would be emailing politicians. Etc. Why? Because the west has developed a body of law that is the guiding light by which social progress can trudge it's road. From the time of the Mayflower, raping a child has been considered a capital crime. Sadly, this only applied to whites, but it illustrates the fact that western democracies are constantly developing. We screw up on a regular basis, yet we are always trying, through the democratic processes of elections, demonstrations, and a free press, to rectify our errors.

So , in order to calm the criers of 'racism', Westerners are no better, or no worse than the Thais. We have just developed, and continue to develop, under different sociological systems.

As to the treatment of child molesters, they are incurable. Do some research, and try and prove me wrong. One defense they use is high testosterone levels. Their lawyers claim that the defendants had no control, because the urge was too strong. When I was 25 I had triple the normal testosterone level, yet I had no urges or thoughts about rape.

They claim to be victims of prior abuse, yet they feel nothing as their victims scream. They are scum. Plain and simple. They should be given maximum sentences, and be forced to live with the violent sociopaths. Then we can see how tough they really are.

I hope and prey that, in order to kill the pain, the little girl will not turn to drugs, or develop a mental illness.

It is an unfortunate fact that rapists, and child molesters even more so, tend to have very high recidivism rates. There is some truth to arguements that they can't help themselves. SOme rapists, especially people involved in a gang rape, get caught up in the moment and can be rehabilitated. But serial rapists and child molesters tend to be stuck in some sort of mental pattern.

So what do we do about these people? Kill them like some posters advocate. For the record, I am against the death penalty. I think that brings society down to the level of the criminals. Life in prison? To protect society, that would work. But it seems harsh for someone with a mental condition. and it is quite expensive. I can live with it, but there has to be another way.

That is why I tend to side with chemical "castration." Taking drugs which lower aggression and alter the personality. Most liberals decry this as worse than the death penalty, a "cruel and unusual punsihment." To me, it pretty much gaurantees that there won't be any more of these crimes by the perpetrator, it costs far less, and it lets the perpetrators lead some sort of life, albeit a changed one.

I'm sorry to disagree with you,but i believe that the death penalty needs to be applied where there is no doubt of the guilt.I don't like violence,but i feel that a lethal injection is a decent method of removing these people and ensuring they never commit a crime of such a sadistic nature,ever again.More so for people with mental illness,where there is a track record of violence/homicidal tendancies.The greater community deserves to be able to live their life without fear of these attacks.

[Mai Krap]

So who is going to anything and when are they going to do it?

[MSingh]

So who is going to anything and when are they going to do it?

aye ??

[Sabum]

Thai UNIVERSITY females must wear heels and skirts, any length ( ans some choose to wear very short skirts as they are trained that their value is in how attractive they are deemed by men, for sex.

It's all about differentiating females from males in a sexual way. Sexualizing them - like how breast have become sexualized when in fact this part of a woman's body has little to do with sexuality Or the virginity obsession , that being the first penis into the object is insome way ...prized .

And I firmly believe the immigration laws are purposely made difficult along with the FBA ( foreign Business Act ) rules so as to marry off Thai women to foreign men. It is a big business..

And look how rampant CENSORED is, yet it's " Illegal" but every other cop has his finger in the pie ...Systemic CENSORED makes this country go round. And when woman are a commodity, it's harder to humanize them

You sound like a lame lay, sorry but men and women (yes moreso women) have been trying to look attractive to the opposite sex for thousands of years, starting with face paint and markings and bone jewellery back in cave man times I'm sure. This particular issue you brought up is totally universal and instinctual, it really has nothing to do with the problem in Thailand. Breasts are attractive to men because they dont have them, they are distinctly FEMININE which attracts a masculine type. You would probably be shocked to find out that women find masculine traits such as height and muscles (percieved strength to hunt and provide and protect) as attractive, seriously you sound a little out of touch with basic human sexuality.

Edited February 14, 2009 by Sabum

[neverdie]

Thai UNIVERSITY females must wear heels and skirts, any length ( ans some choose to wear very short skirts as they are trained that their value is in how attractive they are deemed by men, for sex.

It's all about differentiating females from males in a sexual way. Sexualizing them - like how breast have become sexualized when in fact this part of a woman's body has little to do with sexuality Or the virginity obsession , that being the first penis into the object is insome way ...prized .

And I firmly believe the immigration laws are purposely made difficult along with the FBA ( foreign Business Act ) rules so as to marry off Thai women to foreign men. It is a big business..

And look how rampant CENSORED is, yet it's " Illegal" but every other cop has his finger in the pie ...Systemic CENSORED makes this country go round. And when woman are a commodity, it's harder to humanize them

You sound like a lame lay, sorry but men and women (yes moreso women) have been trying to look attractive to the opposite sex for thousands of years, starting with face paint and markings and bone jewellery back in cave man times I'm sure. This particular issue you brought up is totally universal and instinctual, it really has nothing to do with the problem in Thailand. Breasts are attractive to men because they dont have them, they are distinctly FEMININE which attracts a masculine type. You would probably be shocked to find out that women find masculine traits such as height and muscles (percieved strength to hunt and provide and protect) as attractive, seriously you sound a little out of touch with basic human sexuality.

Maybe he spends too much time with the horses....I'm sure there is laws against that type of thing, even here in los ....maybe he could tell us about what makes a horse sexy?

[GuestHouse]

You would probably be shocked to find out that women find masculine traits such as height and muscles (percieved strength to hunt and provide and protect) as attractive, seriously you sound a little out of touch with basic human sexuality.

#

I think when it comes to the list of things Thai women find attractive height and muscles are pretty far down the list.

As for this BS about hunting, providing and protecting - open your eyes and look around you at exactly who it is that does the hunting, providing and protecting..... For the most part it is not men.

[Sabum]

I was talking about an international and historical sense of attractiveness through the ages.... not what is particular to Thailand right now in the 21st century, hehe.

[kat]

Thai UNIVERSITY females must wear heels and skirts, any length ( ans some choose to wear very short skirts as they are trained that their value is in how attractive they are deemed by men, for sex.

It's all about differentiating females from males in a sexual way. Sexualizing them - like how breast have become sexualized when in fact this part of a woman's body has little to do with sexuality Or the virginity obsession , that being the first penis into the object is insome way ...prized .

And I firmly believe the immigration laws are purposely made difficult along with the FBA ( foreign Business Act ) rules so as to marry off Thai women to foreign men. It is a big business..

And look how rampant CENSORED is, yet it's " Illegal" but every other cop has his finger in the pie ...Systemic CENSORED makes this country go round. And when woman are a commodity, it's harder to humanize them

You sound like a lame lay, sorry but men and women (yes moreso women) have been trying to look attractive to the opposite sex for thousands of years, starting with face paint and markings and bone jewellery back in cave man times I'm sure. This particular issue you brought up is totally universal and instinctual, it really has nothing to do with the problem in Thailand. Breasts are attractive to men because they dont have them, they are distinctly FEMININE which attracts a masculine type. You would probably be shocked to find out that women find masculine traits such as height and muscles (percieved strength to hunt and provide and protect) as attractive, seriously you sound a little out of touch with basic human sexuality.

Oh, for goodness sake, calm down and save your ire and ideology for things that obviously matter most to you, like an abundant supply of school and unversity girls in tight and revealing uniforms. The forces of supply and demand guarantee that this will not change anytime soon in Thailand. So please spare us the details of your manifesto on sexual attraction as we don't really give a shit and it wasn't the point.

Rather, the point that was made in the prior post - and the one with which I agreed - is that Thailand is a place that defines a woman's self-worth by how she looks and the complete approval of men. Although all women are affected by this in every society, Thailand takes it to an extreme. This is more than apparent in every facet of society, in the wholesale acceptance of women as merchandise as children, as university students, and as girlfriends and as wives. In the case of unversity students during a time of supposed intellectual development, it most certainly is a problem when a high proportion of them learn that their own exploitation is either normal, unlucky, or strategic either for higher grades, or by the pack mentality of fellow male students, or by the highest bidders in the land of a paradise of a sort: the land of extreme and complete commodification of women.

[Sabum]

Sure, figure this is all across most of Asia too, but getting all riled about girls wearing skirts and claiming its a national problem while ignoring the way highly intelligent, educated, empowered and strong women in the west STILL choose to dress in ways that are attractive to males is silly. You dont have to give a shit what I think... why so hostile?

Kat I had no ire (unlike you) and am not campaigning to keep little school girls in tight skirts lol, I just think the guy sounds a little uptight and boring and said so and said why, if his wife tried to look sexy or attractive for him he'd probably have a fit and leave her feeling... not very womanly or wanted. You seriously misjudged me, honestly you just displayed a major generalisation of me that I am surprised came from you.....

[bonobo]

Sure, figure this is all across most of Asia too, but getting all riled about girls wearing skirts and claiming its a national problem while ignoring the way highly intelligent, educated, empowered and strong women in the west STILL choose to dress in ways that are attractive to males is silly. You dont have to give a shit what I think... why so hostile?

Kat I had no ire (unlike you) and am not campaigning to keep little school girls in tight skirts lol, I just think the guy sounds a little uptight and boring and said so and said why, if his wife tried to look sexy or attractive for him he'd probably have a fit and leave her feeling... not very womanly or wanted. You seriously misjudged me, honestly you just displayed a major generalisation of me that I am surprised came from you.....

Just as an FYI, Horsedoctor is a woman.

[Sabum]

Well that just ruins everything....

[Jungian]

Wait... I know for a fact that girls break the dress code rules all the time to raise their skirt higher than is allowed, high heels? This sounds like someones mistaken impression.

Indeed, the skirts are to cover the knees and it is either military (non-sexy) pumps or tennis shoes. The short skirts and the stiletto stripper heals are strictly the students choosing. Personally when a girl comes into my class room dressed like that I can't take her seriously as a university student. The same goes for boys, they also have a dress code which they are happy to violate however; it does not sit well with my department and is reflected in the final grade.

[Sabum]

Wait... I know for a fact that girls break the dress code rules all the time to raise their skirt higher than is allowed, high heels? This sounds like someones mistaken impression.

Indeed, the skirts are to cover the knees and it is either military (non-sexy) pumps or tennis shoes. The short skirts and the stiletto stripper heals are strictly the students choosing. Personally when a girl comes into my class room dressed like that I can't take her seriously as a university student. The same goes for boys, they also have a dress code which they are happy to violate however; it does not sit well with my department and is reflected in the final grade.

Well guess there is at least one school that makes it MANDATORY for girls to wear minis and high heels, otherwise why would Horsedoctor say that? Surely she wouldn't have made it up.

[kat]

I just think the guy sounds a little uptight and boring and said so and said why, if his wife tried to look sexy or attractive for him he'd probably have a fit and leave her feeling... not very womanly or wanted.

But we are not talking about a guy and his wife or how a woman should look sexy or attractive, we are talking about the extreme exploitation and objectification of women and girls that leads to their commodification and wide-scale abuse. Your knee-jerk insults and further objectification of women's sexuality just simply adds to the dominant psychology and furthers the point of the title of this thread: sickening story.

Wait... I know for a fact that girls break the dress code rules all the time to raise their skirt higher than is allowed, high heels? This sounds like someones mistaken impression.

Personally when a girl comes into my class room dressed like that I can't take her seriously as a university student. The same goes for boys, they also have a dress code which they are happy to violate however;

Precisely. I think it is a sign of self-disrespect for females to walk into classrooms and professional jobs flaunting their bodies. It shows that they don't take themselves seriously as skilled, qualified people, nor does anyone else. And, when that is pursued on such a wide scale by university students, there is a very serious problem with the development of young women and young men.

[Sabum]

Kat, read my early posts in this thread, I'm the guy that has always been advocating how this is a serious problem in Thailand and arguing with the guys that think there's nothing different going on here than back home. I'm also the guy who thinks getting the weapon cut off is suitable punishment. I already told you I agree with you, guess you didn't take my meaning, I didn't say a woman SHOULD look sexy or attractive, I said people want to look good for their partner or to attract a mate.... this is just obvious, don't know why you are arguing with me like I said I eat babies. No I am not talking about the exploitation of women, I told you I agree with you, I am talking about the one simple thing I already stated, Horsedoctor was over the edge, and I pointed it out. She's got the right idea, just takes it too far when she seems to judge ALL attempts at people trying to look attractive. I am the kind of person that points out when someone is taking their point too far, everyone has their faults, that's one of mine.

WHAT knee jerk insults and further objectification of women did I do? Cite exact quotes please.

[HorseDoctor]

Thai UNIVERSITY females must wear heels and skirts, any length ( ans some choose to wear very short skirts as they are trained that their value is in how attractive they are deemed by men, for sex.

It's all about differentiating females from males in a sexual way. Sexualizing them - like how breast have become sexualized when in fact this part of a woman's body has little to do with sexuality Or the virginity obsession , that being the first penis into the object is insome way ...prized .

And I firmly believe the immigration laws are purposely made difficult along with the FBA ( foreign Business Act ) rules so as to marry off Thai women to foreign men. It is a big business..

And look how rampant CENSORED is, yet it's " Illegal" but every other cop has his finger in the pie ...Systemic CENSORED makes this country go round. And when woman are a commodity, it's harder to humanize them

You sound like a lame lay, sorry but men and women (yes moreso women) have been trying to look attractive to the opposite sex for thousands of years, starting with face paint and markings and bone jewellery back in cave man times I'm sure. This particular issue you brought up is totally universal and instinctual, it really has nothing to do with the problem in Thailand. Breasts are attractive to men because they dont have them, they are distinctly FEMININE which attracts a masculine type. You would probably be shocked to find out that women find masculine traits such as height and muscles (percieved strength to hunt and provide and protect) as attractive, seriously you sound a little out of touch with basic human sexuality.

See, even your sopho-moronic insult has to be sexually oriented, " Lame lay.."

I bring up women (sorry I mean " Girls" ) wearing tightly uncomfortable and revealing clothing because their entire intrinsic value is now wrapped up in how sexually desirable they are.

It ain't like that for men .

Realize that breasts weren't always sexualized , at one time women walked around with bare breasts in all tropical climates.

The Victorian age and British colonialism put an end to that .

Look at Indonesia , just banning the wearing of penis gourds by men in tribes, as obscene.

It's the religious obsession of sexuality , the distortion and oppression of it that causes rape.

[HorseDoctor]

Wait... I know for a fact that girls break the dress code rules all the time to raise their skirt higher than is allowed, high heels? This sounds like someones mistaken impression.

Indeed, the skirts are to cover the knees and it is either military (non-sexy) pumps or tennis shoes. The short skirts and the stiletto stripper heals are strictly the students choosing. Personally when a girl comes into my class room dressed like that I can't take her seriously as a university student. The same goes for boys, they also have a dress code which they are happy to violate however; it does not sit well with my department and is reflected in the final grade.

Well guess there is at least one school that makes it MANDATORY for girls to wear minis and high heels, otherwise why would Horsedoctor say that? Surely she wouldn't have made it up.

I see university students every day with heels of 2 to 3 inches and way way above the knee short skirts ( btw And why do even women in the military dictated to wear (non sexy by your view) heels?)

I' ve never said the short lengths or heel heights were mandatory but what is , is that women ( sorry, dam_n,) " girls" must wear skirts and heels to differentiate them in a sexual manner .

(Christ, they probably have to wear hot bands of elastic around their chests - Arghhh !!!)

You are getting into spurrious details as lame argument because you know you're part of the problem, which is the sexual commercialization of women, generally and in Thailand, specifically, which leads to endemic rape.

Edited February 15, 2009 by HorseDoctor

[mc2]

I'd have to agree, sexual commercialisation of women is far more prevelant in Thailand than in my home country for instance.

Not sure if I would call it 'sexual commercialisation' though, rather, for women their sense of value is related moreso to beauty, and attractiveness rather than out and out sex.

For men the emphisis is on wealth and 'power' / status.

[Sabum]

Horsedoctor, though it was obvious I was under the impression I was teasing a man that I thought I was a bit prudish, once I realised you were a woman all my jokes and arguments fell apart.... like I said. You did however say MUST meaning it was mandatory (unless it really is mandatory to wear heels and skirts together?? I still dont think its clear what you mean), just a poor choice of words on your part as it seemed like you were spreading falsehoods. No I am certainly not part of the problem with rape.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Sabum

[caulfield2]

This is just the current fashion of the students in many Asian countries today.

The irony is that the country with the university policy on uniforms that's most "relaxed" is probably China, as most students don't have to wear them. Here in Thailand, grad students don't, at least at my uni.

A lot of what the students do is influenced by the Korean culture (think Wonder Girls group) and, to a lesser extent, Japanese culture...and also the West.

I've been to many Catholic high schools (in the US) as a speaker and they do the same thing....shirt 2-3 sizes too small, tight/short skirts...they change/adapt the existing uniform to make it their own style, because nobody wants to look the same as everyone else. They might even tie their uniform shirt off in the front (something you wouldn't see here in Thailand) until they're called on and it have to change or their parents are called too many times. Think about it...go back to the very first Britney Spears video, the whole "sexy schoolgirl" look.

Many of the students wear fairly normal heels, little to no make-up or jewelry, longer/pleated/billowy skirts....it might be 25-33% that dress in a different way. But I think that you would find this to be true in any country in the world with a uniform policy.

You also have to think of it this way....they don't have so many places like Victoria's Secret here and every girl isn't going out to buy a sexy new swimsuit each summer season...so this is the way they express themselves, by their uniform style and/or when they go out at night, especially on the weekends.

Is it commodifying women when all the Americans, Europeans and South American women wear g-strings/Brazilian style itsy bitsby teeny weeny yellow polka dot bikinis? Sure, if you're a pretty girl, you will buy a swimsuit that flatters your body...and if you're chubby, you will hide your stomach and accentuate your chest or wear black. The girls in Thailand are also very thin (usually), so they have to make their height (high heels, taller girls wearing even shorter skirts) and their tight t-shirts as a way to attract a guy. You won't ever see a Thai girl coming close to showing her cleavage in class, which is very normal in Western universities...and American/Western women definitely dress just as much, if not moreso, like "commodities" when they go out. If you don't think, check out cities like NYC, LA, Chicago, London, Prague, Rome, Paris, Barcelona, Madrid, Florence, Milan, etc., on the weekends where the teens and twenty-somethings go to party.

[Sabum]

To try to limit even more misunderstanding... is military pumps a shoe term or do they actually make women wear heels in the military?