What Is Wrong With This Tyre?

[JetsetBkk]

if there is a "bear" Autoboy anywhere near you, or any similar place, take your vehicle there and ask for balance and tracking - apart from that the soapy water thing sounds fairly plausible.

is it only one gear between certain revs or all gears?...

Easily felt in 2nd, 3rd & 4th but only at low revs (1500 - 2000) and light acceleration. Accelerating hard (which usually means the revs are kept high) makes it hard to detect the vibration.

[JetsetBkk]

As far as the original photo goes, I would be concerned about the 'weather cracks' down in the groove(s)...I see several.

If the other tires/tyres are the same, I would seriously consider replacing them. But that is me...

They are definitely old and I will probably replace them before the next rainy season.

[Lancashirelad]

If the tyres have worn evenly as you say they have, and it doesn't pull to one side on the steering, then the tracking is definately ok.

As little as 2mm is quite simply dangerous on a pickup in the wet...... it won't stop! Strongly suggest get new tyres on & all balanced FIRST, then see how your vibration is.

Wheel imbalance can always be felt (& seen) at the steering wheel & you can normally "drive through it." i.e. Go faster & it will stop.

I doubt its in the transmission as you state it goes away when you declutch.........the transmission is still turning, driven by the road wheels. However, BSJ has a point in that the centre prop joint is now loaded from the opposite end.

I'd say its either that, or a vibration on the engine itself........ though that wouldn't normally be felt thru' the steering wheel.

Really does make sense to do tyres first as you need them anyway, then take it from there.

[stingray]

sometime is hard to make the exact diagnostic, when no see the problem. Second pictures look like your tire have no stairs. Stairs mean, when the tire get raft at the shoulders. I should make a drawing, instead to try to explain. You feel it when you touch it. But your tire looke not like what i mean. Maybe we can get more closer. Do you drive at a constant speed when you put the Neutral gear in, just let rolling the car? Is the vibration gone? or comes the vibration when you accellerate or deacellerate (without using the brakes)? Does the shaking comes from the front or the rear end?

When in neutral, the pick-up slows down and the vibration isn't there. It's only there when I accelerate through 1500 to 2000 RPM or decelerate through 2000 through 1500 RPM by using the engine as a brake by not touching the accelerator while in gear. I should emphasize that this vibration is very slight, but I know it didn't used to be there a few months ago.

Vibration from front or rear? Can't really tell - it just a high frequency vibration felt at the steering wheel.

Vibration ad acceleration and decelleration! In this case i guess it's defenitifely the Driveshaft (out of blance). This is also a common problem with suzuki Caribeans. So the car is RWD, some of RWD cars have a 2 pieced driveshaft. Check the joint of the driveshaft on the half way, if there is one, if not check the joints on each end at the driveshaft. they have small needle bearings inside. If they are damaged, you get exactly that kind of vibration you have. It is defenitifely NOT a wheel blance problem.

[Lickey]

Move the front wheels to the back,while the front wheels are off, check the brake discs for rust on the no-contact surfaces,if there is a lot, clean of with a good screwdriver or chisel by holding it on the caliper and turning the disc by hand to bite off the flacky rust, eye protection is needed,

Try a test drive, if its the same, its not the tyres or discs, a cost free start to the problem.

[tb86]

your feeling the vibs through the steering wheel? maybe check your pitman arm, steering box and mounts toyota steering boxe mounts have a habit of cracking at the frame but usually you would get a sloppy feeling in the steering wheel or a off center steering wheel when that has happend, and you havent mentioned any probs with that. As for drag link and tie rod, look for play in them as well as check the grease packs look for cracks in the bushings. I wouldnt worry too much I doubt that its going to be a expensive fix,more of a constant nuiscance that may take a little while to pinpoint but have all these things checked will take a good mechaninc about a hour to run through all of these things, good luck.

[JetsetBkk]

Vibration ad acceleration and deceleration! In this case i guess it's definitely the Driveshaft (out of balance). This is also a common problem with suzuki Caribeans. So the car is RWD, some of RWD cars have a 2 pieced driveshaft. Check the joint of the driveshaft on the half way, if there is one, if not check the joints on each end at the driveshaft. they have small needle bearings inside. If they are damaged, you get exactly that kind of vibration you have. It is definitely NOT a wheel balance problem.

My pick-up is RWD and has a two piece driveshaft - here are some pictures of it:

Gearbox to driveshaft:

Driveshaft centre bearing:

Driveshaft centre bearing:

Driveshaft to differential:

Toyota driveshaft rubber:

from here: http://www.germes-online.com/catalog/78/10...and_mounts.html

Also called the centre support bearing or carrier bearing:

from here: http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/maintenance/front_end/lube/

Still not sure if that's the problem because the vibration is present in most gears at 1500 to 2000 RPM. So if it was the driveshaft making the vibration, it should be felt at particular speeds, not engine revs, since the driveshaft's RPM is directly proportional to the speed of the pick-up.

There is one possible way it could be the driveshaft, and that is if the vibration is caused by a specific amount of torque being applied, which is what happens when I accelerate gently through the gears.

[JetsetBkk]

If the tyres have worn evenly as you say they have, and it doesn't pull to one side on the steering, then the tracking is definately ok.

As little as 2mm is quite simply dangerous on a pickup in the wet...... it won't stop! Strongly suggest get new tyres on & all balanced FIRST, then see how your vibration is.

Wheel imbalance can always be felt (& seen) at the steering wheel & you can normally "drive through it." i.e. Go faster & it will stop.

I doubt its in the transmission as you state it goes away when you declutch.........the transmission is still turning, driven by the road wheels. However, BSJ has a point in that the centre prop joint is now loaded from the opposite end.

I'd say its either that, or a vibration on the engine itself........ though that wouldn't normally be felt thru' the steering wheel.

Really does make sense to do tyres first as you need them anyway, then take it from there.

All good points LL, but I'm loathe to spend the money on the tyres just yet as they've been balance-checked and ruled out by the "free-wheeling" test.

Edit:

Actually, I want to get the problem fixed and go back to Toyota and tell them what a useless bunch of :D they are without them being able to say "Well, you also changed the tyres, so that may have contributed to the problem."

Edited February 24, 2009 by JetsetBkk

[JetsetBkk]

Move the front wheels to the back,while the front wheels are off, check the brake discs for rust on the no-contact surfaces,if there is a lot, clean of with a good screwdriver or chisel by holding it on the caliper and turning the disc by hand to bite off the flacky rust, eye protection is needed,

Try a test drive, if its the same, its not the tyres or discs, a cost free start to the problem.

I may do that if Toyota find no problems with the driveshaft. But it is the hot season just now and swapping tyres around on the pick-up is not too attractive to me...

[JetsetBkk]

your feeling the vibs through the steering wheel? maybe check your pitman arm, steering box and mounts toyota steering boxe mounts have a habit of cracking at the frame but usually you would get a sloppy feeling in the steering wheel or a off center steering wheel when that has happend, and you havent mentioned any probs with that. As for drag link and tie rod, look for play in them as well as check the grease packs look for cracks in the bushings. I wouldnt worry too much I doubt that its going to be a expensive fix,more of a constant nuiscance that may take a little while to pinpoint but have all these things checked will take a good mechaninc about a hour to run through all of these things, good luck.

I did have my local machanic - not Toyota - have a good look at the steering joints. He had his boy turn the wheel one way and then the other while he was checking underneath, and couldn't see any problems.

There is one steering problem that I get that is apparently quite common with Toyotas - the "infamous steering stops" problem as it is called here: http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/maintenance/front_end/lube/

Toyota have already replaced one missing steering stop cap, and I'm pretty sure it's gone missing again as I sometimes get a nasty click when reversing on full steering lock. But I don't think it affects normal running.

I know of another local garage that has been recommend to me, so if Toyota come up with nothing, I'll go there with the pictures from this post and explain that I want everything checked.

I do wonder whether Toyota have ever greased the driveshaft joints - at the grease nipples, or "zerks" - when they service the thing.

[Lilyjade]

Check if it is Rimslip.

Use a piece of tape or some sticker and do

the rimslip test.

It is free and you can do it yourself.

You should by new tyres anyway, it is one of the most important

parts for your car if you want to stay safe and uninjured.

[kjhbigv]

I would say definitely nothing to do with tyres or wheels, due to the fact as you say when you declutch it disappears.

Definitely not CV joints at front as this is rear wheel drive. To test CV joints easy, just full steering either direction, if worn will be a clicking/knocking from them, you can also check the rubber boots around the joints for splits. If they are, replace them, replacing CV joints can be a pain.

From what you have said I would say it is definitely (as you think) a problem wth the driveshaft joints. If there is movement (as a previous poster mentioned) of 1cm, that is too much! You should not be able to move the driveshaft at any point, by hand, up and down. Also, you say the vibration disappears when you declutch, this is possibly down to the fact that no loads are being 'forced' down the shaft and is effectively freewheeling on it's own weight. Why only at a certain speed, just like anything, spin it fast enough and a small vibration will disappear.

In addition, the joints do seem to look a bit 'dry', remember if any dust or dirt gets in them, over time it will wear out the joint. So, if they have not been lubricated as per manufacturers specification, they will wear out quite quickly.

So, I predict that it is one of the joints on the driveshaft causing you the vibration (as you deduced), problem is which one? Difficult to ascertain with the vehicle stationary! I would suggest using genuine part(s) for this (not a pattern/copy part) as it is an important bearing and takes a lot of force through it everyday.

I reckon you are pretty much bang on re your diagnosis! Post back how you get on.

[Lickey]

Good pics Jet, the gearbox mtg looks good, the center mtg looks good too, the way to test this is lift the prop by hand, if it feels rubbery and no mettalic sound all is ok, but the rear UJ looks a little like there is rust coming out, you could try and test it your self, hold the prop and the axle input flange, twist againt eachother and check for movement, any move atall sugests a worn UJ, but again, if it is so rusted, it will not move, and i think there are no grease nipples on the prop, most are sealed nowadays,

[JetsetBkk]

Thanks again for the input from everyone. I've printed off the pictures of the driveshaft and will go to a garage on Monday to talk to them about it.

Good pics Jet, the gearbox mtg looks good, the center mtg looks good too, the way to test this is lift the prop by hand, if it feels rubbery and no metallic sound all is ok, but the rear UJ looks a little like there is rust coming out, you could try and test it your self, hold the prop and the axle input flange, twist against each other and check for movement, any move at all suggests a worn UJ, but again, if it is so rusted, it will not move, and i think there are no grease nipples on the prop, most are sealed nowadays,

Tomorrow I'll start crawling around underneath and do some more checks. I didn't have a lot of time when I was in the garage's pit, but this time I'll do a more thorough job.

I used to have a 3 litre Capri (UK) that had a problem with its two-piece prop-shaft - it used to get out of shape on hard acceleration and would hit the exhaust pipe, so the car would sound like a fire engine as it went "ding ding ding ding..." That problem was fixed by replacing it with a one-piece prop. (I don't recall the centre bearing of the prop having a bracket to hold it in place on the Capri, so swapping the prop for a one-piece was easy.)

More info tomorrow.

[JetsetBkk]

Here's a couple of very short videos that I've joined together to show the amount of play in the centre bearing joint. I'm afraid the camera hand is not very steady as every time I pushed or pulled on the driveshaft, the camera hand moved in the opposite direction.

[JetsetBkk]

Problem Found and Fixed

Today I went to the local (non-Toyota dealer) garage for my repair appointment. The mechanic got the pick-up onto the hydrolic ramp and showed me what the problem was - the rubber in the engine mounting points was so squashed, the metal part of the mounting point was less than 1 mm from the chassis member. So any movement of the engine (e.g. caused by gentle acceleration) would cause the metal parts to touch and for vibration to be transmitted.

So he replaced both mounting points and the other one at the back of the gearbox. I now have three shiny new black mounting points.

Engine mount:

Gearbox mount:

He also fitted new plastic caps on the "steering stops" to prevent the steering lock "click" that is common with Toyotas and that were missing on mine:

Costs: engine mounts 835 bt. each, gearbox mount: 750 bt., plastic steering stops: 45 bt. each, labour: 550 bt. Total 3,060 bt.

Other problems fixed by this work:

1. When starting the engine, the gearbox lever used to thrash from side to side once or twice as the engine fired up, so I used to hold it. Now it doesn't move. (The first time this happened today, I actually thought that the engine hadn't started! )

2. When pulling away from stationary, at the moment the clutch changes from "slipping" to "biting" there used to be a shudder that would rattle stuff in the glove box or centre console. That doesn't happen any more.

3. When changing from accelerating to decelerating - i.e. using the engine as a brake - there used to be a slight shudder as if there was play in the driveshaft bearings. That doesn't happen any more either.

Overall, the driving "feel" is like it was a few years ago. Best 3,060 baht I've spent in a long time.

[T_Dog]

JetSet.... Nice thread! I thought all along it would be the clutch throw-out bearings, but the engine mount cause makes a lot of sense. Going to have to check my engine mounts as the gear shift shakes on start up too. You are right..... 3000 baht to get all that done and have "new car feel" is worth it.

[Dave the Dude]

Pleased to hear alls well, Jetset

Dont forget the tyres though

Happy&Safe motoring

Dave

[JetsetBkk]

JetSet.... Nice thread! I thought all along it would be the clutch throw-out bearings, but the engine mount cause makes a lot of sense.

Yes, that was my big worry - the clutch or an expensive bearing at the back end of the gearbox. Thank God it was just the mountings.

If you look at the top picture of the three in my previous post, there is a huge block of rubber visible - about a 2cm gap between the metal of the mounting and the chassis. On the old mounting, that gap was about 1mm! So the rubber was totally squashed.

Going to have to check my engine mounts as the gear shift shakes on start up too. You are right..... 3000 baht to get all that done and have "new car feel" is worth it.

Good idea - my motor is just over 5 years old, but I reckon the symptoms probably started at about 4 years. The ride improvement was so noticeable today - smooth gear changes, smooth acceleration - it was a pleasure to drive it again.

[JetsetBkk]

Pleased to hear alls well, Jetset

Dont forget the tyres though

Happy&Safe motoring

Dave

Yes - will do! I had to do a U-turn today and the amount of squealing that came out from them was embarrassing! Loads of people turned to look and I was only doing about 3 KPH!

[Dave the Dude]

Yes - will do! I had to do a U-turn today and the amount of squealing that came out from them was embarrassing! Loads of people turned to look and I was only doing about 3 KPH!

Without going over old ground but still I'd like to add briefly....

Thai garages over-inflate tyres, please check yours too(new or old)

Dave