British Man Murdered In Kathu;

[sunsamourai]

Time to look into personal body guards etc. Or pack heat. And also keep a wary eye out in your big empty shadowy house.

Don't tell me about it : 2 tukays and 1 spider bigger than my hand in less than a week...

Geeeeeeeeeees !

[dreamchaser]

Phuket is fast becoming an extremely violent place

[george]

Update:

English businessman clubbed to death

KATHU, PHUKET: -- Police investigating the murder of an Englishman yesterday suspect the killing may have been motivated by a real estate dispute.

At 10:30 am yesterday, Tung Tong Police were notified by security guards of a murder at the Royal Place project on Phra Phuketkaew Rd, at the Tesco-Lotus junction.

The victim was later identified as Ian Kenneth Stuart, 61.

Police, including Phuket Provincial Police Commander Apirak Hongtong, rushed to the three-story offices of the St James Property Co Ltd real estate firm where Mr Stuart lived alone on the third floor.

Inside police found the victim''s body lying on his bed. He had been beaten on the head with a blunt object, which police have not recovered.

Inside the bedroom a chest of drawers appears to have been searched. A trail of blood drops led downstairs, where the intruders removed 3 panes from a glass window to gain entry.

Forensic investigators collected samples of dried blood taken from the walls and dusted for fingerprints from the glass and five bottles of rice whiskey found outside the building.

Police questioned 26-year-old office manager Suttira Noonchoo, who discovered Mr Stuart’s body when she reported for work as usual on Monday morning.

She said she felt something was amiss when she went to remove her laptop computer from a drawer and found it missing. She then found Mr Stuart dead in his bedroom upstairs.

Another company laptop had gone missing about two weeks earlier, she said

Describing the victim as quiet and non-confrontational, she said she had no idea what the motive might have been.

Maj Gen Apirak said the attacker must have climbed up the corner unit and walked across a ledge to the second story window in the rear of the block.

The attackers probably meant to kill Mr Stuart and locate something inside. If robbery were the motive, they would not have left behind valuables including his Rolex watch and gold ring. Miss Suttira’s work computer downstairs might have contained valuable information wanted by the intruder, he said.

Police are also investigating revenge as a possible motive, as the victim was recently involved in a fight with local security guards, he said.

The murder was the second of a foreigner involved in the real estate business in less than a week, following the still-unsolved shooting murder of a Canadian last Thursday.

-- Phuket Gazette 2009-02-24

[notime]

I have to admit to being shocked by guyinthailand's stats.

I have lived here, Bangkok, on and off for 7 years and have never encountered the level of crime that these stats would indicate.

I come from Ireland where crime seems to be rampant and gun crime is on the rise.

Nationmaster seems to be using wikipedia as its source for some stats and a UN report covering 1998-2000 for others.

Absolutely correct about Nationmaster. Here is a link to Wikipedia's murder rates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rates

I find these rates very likely. Notice how the rates for many countries changed considerably between 2000 and recent (2008 ?). Switzerland went up from 0.96 murders per 100,000 to 2.94 while Poland went down from 5.61 to 1.64. The interesting fact is that in case of Thailand there are no statistics pass the figure of 8.47 available from the year 2000.

I also wonder what would the rate be per 100,000 Farang. I don't feel safe here at all and during my 3 year stay in Samui encountered 3 incidents of violence agains me .. one by Thais and two by Farang .. something that didn't happen at all in my previous 25 years in Australia. I may ad that none of the above incidents had anything to do with bar brawls or nightlife.

By the way, the rate for Ireland was and still is low at around 0.91 so not true about that country having rampant crime.

[JetsetBkk]

My friend does work in Phuket and he says its the most corrupt place in Thailand by far.Rotten from the top to the bottom.He lives in Pattaya and he said that its far less violent than Phuket.

Has your friend been to Samui?

[Seneque]

Thailand is a violent country Thais kill Thais all the time Farang just don't see it ............

Most Farang don't understand Thailand .......

TKT !... I thought it was TLT (Thais love Thais) ...?!

... and most Thais don't know (and therefore don't understand) farangs

[alstaxi]

ah gee i keep reading all this stuff thats been happing, but have never seen any voilent acks as yet. just moved here 2 weeks ago.

Lived here 11 years and never witnessed anything. Sure is safer than where I moved from!

As long as you dont see it, it doesnt happen!!!! When it happens to you it will be OK you didnt see it!!!!!!!

Of course it happens, but for the average resident, the chances of being a victim of violence is minimal

Minimal....as long as you don't find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time, with the way things are going, there are going to be many more wrong places and wrong times, to avoid. Things are going to get much worse before they get better, everywhere.

Just returned from up country, lots of people returning to their villages due to losing their job, now another mouth to feed , instead of sending cash home.Only getting worse .

[toret]

Well you have seen nothing YET. With the onset of large scale unemployment its going to get worse. Don't forget for Thais no money = starvation.

Farang property brokers turning up dead has nothing to do with unemployment, and everything to do with the Democrats being back in power in Bangkok. The local warlords are once again untouchable.

No money, yet a Rolex, cash, and gold left at the scene? More like somebody's mia noi needs a new Mercedes after a tough shopping trip to Hong Kong and a few days in the casinos at Macau. What better way to fund that than with a few quick property turns.

Dollars to donuts, this is another one where the investigation goes nowhere, as the local constabulary will be monetarily encouraged to pursue another "domestic dispute" possibility. If the investigator doesn't cooperate, the folks in parliament and their yellow-shirted supporters in Phuket can make sure the unlucky policeman is transferred to an 'inactive' post escorting teachers in Yala.

What do you really mean? Was his mia noi a local warlord who support the democrats? I think you should notify the police if you know something about this.

BTW, this seems more like something business oriented. Phone and laptop missing, but no other valuables gone?

[on-on]

I also wonder what would the rate be per 100,000 Farang. I don't feel safe here at all and during my 3 year stay in Samui encountered 3 incidents of violence agains me .. one by Thais and two by Farang .. something that didn't happen at all in my previous 25 years in Australia. I may ad that none of the above incidents had anything to do with bar brawls or nightlife.

The problem with our discussion of course is that it's difficult psychologically to separate anecdotal evidence from empirical for all humans and that we lack the relevant statistics (so far anyway) in this thread to make a judgment about the safety of foreigners from violent crime. I'd further like a breakdown of violent crimes against foreigners by motive and circumstance, because I really do bet if you took out incidents involving relationships that are heavily mismatched in terms of wealth and/or age, then took out incidents involving relationships that involved the sex trade at any point and then subtracted violent crimes where the victim worked in a domestically asset-rich field like wealth management or real estate you'd probably be left with a relatively smaller number of random acts of violence involving alcohol, traffic accidents and bad luck and most of them would take place in areas where a lot of shady activity goes on anyway (both Thai and farang) that produces a much higher level of environmental "bad luck" waiting to happen to someone (Pattaya, Samui, Phuket, Bangkok). I have absolutely no way of proving any of this, but after living and working here for several years and spending time all over with a variety of foreigners and Thais this seems like what's going on to me.

I'm not commenting on this guy's case specifically, but even assuming the poor guy was a totally innocent victim - and it's entirely possible that he was, I honest-to-God make no judgment about that - the circumstances do tend to mesh with what we often see in violent crimes against foreigners who are victims of either complete and total bad luck or retribution for some deal they were involved in. Whether one interprets that as a warning about Thailand in general or a warning about staying out of certain professions and certain kinds of relationships is up to the individual as well of course.

Edited February 25, 2009 by on-on

[squarefred]

lets make it clear. most expats hang out in the kind of seedy/vice ridden areas to which the poorest and most morally corrupt people are drawn. its no surprise that every now and then the criminal nature of the kind of people they deal with comes through.

thats not to say that it isnt sad. any murder is. my deepest sympathies.

thailand is generally a safe country................if you stay away from hookers and criminals.

[squarefred]

I also wonder what would the rate be per 100,000 Farang. I don't feel safe here at all and during my 3 year stay in Samui encountered 3 incidents of violence agains me .. one by Thais and two by Farang .. something that didn't happen at all in my previous 25 years in Australia. I may ad that none of the above incidents had anything to do with bar brawls or nightlife.

The problem with our discussion of course is that it's difficult psychologically to separate anecdotal evidence from empirical for all humans and that we lack the relevant statistics (so far anyway) in this thread to make a judgment about the safety of foreigners from violent crime. I'd further like a breakdown of violent crimes against foreigners by motive and circumstance, because I really do bet if you took out incidents involving relationships that are heavily mismatched in terms of wealth and/or age, then took out incidents involving relationships that involved the sex trade at any point and then subtracted violent crimes where the victim worked in a domestically asset-rich field like wealth management or real estate you'd probably be left with a relatively smaller number of random acts of violence involving alcohol, traffic accidents and bad luck and most of them would take place in areas where a lot of shady activity goes on anyway (both Thai and farang) that produces a much higher level of environmental "bad luck" waiting to happen to someone (Pattaya, Samui, Phuket, Bangkok). I have absolutely no way of proving any of this, but after living and working here for several years and spending time all over with a variety of foreigners and Thais this seems like what's going on to me.

I'm not commenting on this guy's case specifically, but even assuming the poor guy was a totally innocent victim - and it's entirely possible that he was, I honest-to-God make no judgment about that - the circumstances do tend to mesh with what we often see in violent crimes against foreigners who are victims of either complete and total bad luck or retribution for some deal they were involved in. Whether one interprets that as a warning about Thailand in general or a warning about staying out of certain professions and certain kinds of relationships is up to the individual as well of course.

bang on. you're saying what i did in a rather more polite way - if you hang out in seedy areas your chances of succumbing to environmental "bad luck", as you put it, increase 1000 fold.

[Sturbuc]

Time to let my girl do her firearm license.

Good idea, so it might be a family affair...

Edited February 25, 2009 by Sturbuc

[stuandchris]

Thai people are generally easy going people, however there is a lot of violence between Thai's. Phuket is not Thailand, the difference between the have and have nots is huge. Next year will be crunch time, if you are used to 20,000 a month and are loaded and go down to earning sod all with a hungry family, what are you going to do when the local farangs have houses worth 5 times what the average Thai, even in Phuket would earn in a lifetime?

What would you do in your own country?

Crime, especially in Phuket will skyrocket in a years time.

Don't forget life in Asia is cheap.

I hope I am wrong but I fear the worst for this island in the short term, the gravy train is coming to an end for a couple of years at least and I really don't think The locals realise this yet.

[thefalang]

Safer than any big city in the States. Moral is: Don't get into anything bigger than you.

First of all, can you substantiate your claim that "Thailand is safer than any big city in the States?". You should inform yourself a bit before you make unsubstantiated claims.

For 1996, Thailand reported 28 road fatalities per 100,000 people, almost 200% of the 15.8 fatalities reported in the US for the same year. Thailand's 16,782 road fatalities reported for 1996 translates to 9.5 deaths per 10,000 motor vehicles, whereas the US experienced only 2 fatalities per 10,000 motor vehicles.

In case you're not aware, there have been a rash of muggings over the past 5-6 years in Phuket whereas a number of tourists have been maimed and/or killed. In fact, there have been a rash of attacks on foreigners throughout Thailand. Unfortunately, the statistics are not available for comparative study but I'm quite certain that these crimes represent a statistically high occurrence relative to "most western countries".

Based on the 8^th UN survey 2002, Thailand rated 3^rd in the world for murders with firearms, surpassed only by Columbia and South Africa. On a per capita basis, Thailand's murder rate was approximately 6 times that of the US. Thailand's murder rate (all causes) was double that of the US. These statistics contradict the notion that Thailand is a gentle society.

Statistics regarding rape in Thailand are flawed due to non-reporting (both by the victims and the police) and I suspect that the occurrence rape in Thailand is extraordinarily high. I personally know several non-Thai women that were laughed at by the local police when they attempted to report an attempted rape. Many Thai women will not report rape due to a lack of distrust & confidence in the police and fear of being stigmatized, much more so than in western countries.

The situation in Thailand has become increasingly worse. I know many people who have been shot, stabbed, beaten and robbed (I haven't even mentioned being cheated out of vast sums of money). Thailand is a voilent, dangerous place.

[thefalang]

Safer than any big city in the States. Moral is: Don't get into anything bigger than you.

First of all, can you substantiate your claim that “Thailand is safer than any big city in the States?". You should inform yourself a bit before you make unsubstantiated claims.

For 1996, Thailand reported 28 road fatalities per 100,000 people, almost 200% of the 15.8 fatalities reported in the US for the same year. Thailand’s 16,782 road fatalities reported for 1996 translates to 9.5 deaths per 10,000 motor vehicles, whereas the US experienced only 2 fatalities per 10,000 motor vehicles.

In case you’re not aware, there have been a rash of muggings over the past 5-6 years in Phuket whereas a number of tourists have been maimed and/or killed. In fact, there have been a rash of attacks on foreigners throughout Thailand. Unfortunately, the statistics are not available for comparative study but I’m quite certain that these crimes represent a statistically high occurrence relative to “most western countries”.

Based on the 8^th UN survey 2002, Thailand rated 3^rd in the world for murders with firearms, surpassed only by Columbia and South Africa. On a per capita basis, Thailand’s murder rate was approximately 6 times that of the US. Thailand’s murder rate (all causes) was double that of the US. These statistics contradict the notion that Thailand is a gentle society.

Statistics regarding rape in Thailand are flawed due to non-reporting (both by the victims and the police) and I suspect that the occurrence rape in Thailand is extraordinarily high. I personally know several non-Thai women that were laughed at by the local police when they attempted to report an attempted rape. Many Thai women will not report rape due to a lack of distrust & confidence in the police and fear of being stigmatized, much more so than in western countries.

The situation in Thailand has become increasingly worse. I know many people who have been shot, stabbed, beaten and robbed (I haven't even mentioned being cheated out of vast sums of money).

[misterman21]

ah gee i keep reading all this stuff thats been happing, but have never seen any voilent acks as yet. just moved here 2 weeks ago.

Lived here 11 years and never witnessed anything. Sure is safer than where I moved from!

As long as you dont see it, it doesnt happen!!!! When it happens to you it will be OK you didnt see it!!!!!!!

Of course it happens, but for the average resident, the chances of being a victim of violence is minimal

Total BS. Of all the poeple I know in Thailand - 90% have been a victim of crime or witness too a crime. Takrke 5 minutes to reat the Pattaya People - to see a small proprtion of crimes reported!

[BigSnake]

To Keep it simple, Money, wealth Greed lead to Murder. It happen so very often as in most every part of the World. It is a risk one take everywhere, could be just a simple robbery gone bad(crook to lazy to work, need money for drugs) or a big business deal gone South(sour), whatever the reason someone paid the price with their life. SAD RIP

[exexpat]

EVERYONE LISTEN, Thailand is a DEVELOPING COUNTRY. You can't expect the level of crime, law enforcement of a developed nation. Thailand has its share of crime, mafia, and stupidity. But Thailand is not so unusual among Asian nations, I definitely feel far safer here than in Manila, Jakarta or Karachi, Mexico City or Caracas. Thais inherently know that gogo bars, drinking parlours, massage places are mafia run and sketchy businesses. They know that outsiders look into their property to see what to steal. Farang as outsiders tend to get themselves into big trouble because they forget some crucial aspects. A thing or two can be learned from Japanese, who have been doing successful business here for a long time.

1. You are in a foreign country. Try to BLEND in as much as you can. Don't try to live like a king, or even a Western lifestyle, you will stick out like a sore thumb and potentially be a target. Pass up that 10 million baht apartment for a 1 million baht one. Wear local thai clothes, eat at local thai stalls. Try to speak a bit of Thai, be friendly but wary of people who are "overly flirtacious". This builds up a network of local people WHO KNOW YOU as a normal person.

2. Don't associate with anyone from a mafia business (i.e. bar, gogo, casino, massage, drinking place). If you must, do it discreetly and always be polite, and leave mafia associates where they are, don't BRING THEM HOME. Don't associate with anyone who isn't willing and offering to PAY FOR YOU on occasion. Ditch "USERS" as they are bad karma.

3. Take obvious precautions. Rich thais have jagged edges to deter climbing of their walls , barbed wire, or bars on their windows surrounding their places for a reason. They hire security guards and maids for a reason. They lock doors with strong locks for a reason. They spoil the rich and well connected for a reason. They don't bring strangers in their homes for a reason.

4. Thais will always have better connections than you. They have family ties, business ties, and all sorts of ties. Its useless to complain that they are ingrained. What did you expect when you came to this Asian country? That an outsider could walk in and take over? Get real, farang will always be seen as an outsider, and always have fewer connections. In Chinese "guanxin" or connections is one of the most crucial aspects of their culture. Thailand is no different, especially with Thai-Chinese being in positions of authority and power, yet I have never heard of anyone here go into how important that is.

5. Avoid politics and political gatherings. Foreigners are easy targets and scapegoats when things go bad.

6. If you must run a business, understand that this is not the first world. This is the wild east. Business is very dirty and nobody will play by your rules, and you are a foreign business. Learn the system and proceed cautiously. Japanese at one time had faced severe rioting here in the 70's with their businesses. They wised up by teaming up with local big shots, propogandizing how Thais and their country would benefit from business tie ups by bringing in hard currency into the country through exports. They strove to create partnerships where wealthy Thais can have a piece of the pie/puzzle and and lobbied hard to show how it benefits the people HERE, not just themselves, and stressed COOPERATION not competition, the latter which sounds threatening. Japanese recognized that Thais had to be treated as if they are "fragile" and could break at any moment. This includes the way staff is fired. The tide has turned and Japanese are a well respected group here now.

7. Not knowing how to speak the de facto language is a big strike against you. If you can't argue your point in court or to police, how are you going to stick up for yourself? Don't expect the police or court to warm to someone making incomprehisible points in a foreign language.

8. Avoid public humiliation of Thais. If you have to criticize or insult, take these people aside and tell them privately.

Public insult and show of anger is tantamount to war here.

Of course, random acts of violence can never be eliminated. Things will happen, but there are steps you can take to reduce exposure. But I have to say many people walk around at night here and don't get JUMPED walking down the street. Most crime here is committed by or paid by people who aren't total strangers. Pretty much every victim has INTERACTED with the purpetrator. Farang would be wise to avoid people who seem "too eager" for something.

Edited February 26, 2009 by exexpat

[johnwills]

To all my fellow Brits out there who so adamently claim that its more dangerous In Blighty than it is here.

Answer me this.

I went to a village party the other day in rural Surin 3 cops were having a booze tooled up and still it was nessecary to have a local lad walking around with a pump action and a pocket full of shells.

you don't get that at St josephs parrish fete do ya?

I ain't saying it is and I aint saying it isn't I just know that LOS has alot of bad guys rocking about and people should'nt be so dam_n ignorant.

Yes, seen the locals carrying shot guns at the local "Mulam's", i've been to two and have seen both explode into violence with the guards using the shotguns to control the crowd. I've seen 1 guy shot dead outside a bar and numerous fights with weapons (knives/cubs etc), although none of these events involved any westerners, just drunk young Thai males. I would still have to say, Thailand is far more dangerous that the UK and will likely get worse before it gets better as the economy slows down.

[jrbkk64]

Exexpat,

You are spot on. Have been working here for eight years, have dealt and done business with Thais from all levels, have layed-off and hired hundreds of Thais and have never been threathened or similar.

I give my managers a hard time and make them loose face occasionnally (in management meetings, never in public) and treat the lower levels like my family. We just had a global "Values" survey done and our business in Thailand scored the highest of all of over 200 business units and way above the benchmark.

Yes Thailand is not as safe as it seems but if one stays away from certain activities, it is still a great and safe place to live for a foreigner.

JR

[alanmorison]

CRIME is growing on Phuket in 2009 and the island's small police force is at full stretch, the Phuket Police Commander, Major General Apirak Hongtong, said today.

Major General Apirak told Phuketwan that last night's shooting death meant that there were now four outstanding Phuket murder investigations, with two of the killings involving expat residents.

Arrest warrants naming the suspects have been issued in the case of the murder of a Canadian property developer in Patong and the death by battery of a British man in his shophouse home-office near Tesco Lotus supermarket in Phuket City, Major General Apirak said.

http://phuketwan.com/tourism/fourth-murder...-full-strectch/