Brit Faces Two Years In Thai Jail For Being 'rude'.

[neverdie]

Sabum is trying to say he know he can be as silly as this Brit at times.....I hope for his sake the officials at the airport never question his passport or we will have another long thread which dribbles along about people being rude.

Take care Sabum, remember this british chap is a good example of why you should remain calm & not lose your temper when it comes to officials, especially thai ones.

[sriracha john]

Given these exact set of circumstances I firmly believe anyone with any sense of self worth would get angry.

Losing a lot of money and causing all kinds of personal and financial problems all over a mistake by the "officials" is just part of it.

Would make me shout out loud too. Trying to keep that level of frustration inside would be like choking.

of course people coming here for a measly couple of weeks will not realise they need to walk on egg shells around puffed up and bloated egos that can wield dangerous power over you if you embarass them.

Of course people would be a million times more cautious in another country like IRAQ or North Korea, but no not the States and not the UK.

They certainly don't assume Thailand falls into the category of unforgiving and dangerous places you need to be extra careful in, that kind of information is just available to us that live here, even then it seems too hard to grasp by some.

The above reconfirms the below..

Despite the commonality of it nowadays, not everyone is really suitable to become an international traveler, particularly if they fail to consider all the possible ramifications for their actions that may occur while traveling internationally.

One needs to be cautious no matter what country they are entering or exiting and control themselves accordingly.

[Sabum]

Right but lets not go crazy and totally forget the sillyness of his "crimes" and "losing control". He shouted one sentence "I'm not a fuc_king idiot" and then immediately went looking for a real police officer to clear things up. Hardly the horrible behaviour so many of you have been and keep trying to pin on Simon. And I will ONCE AGAIN remind you that he did that minor outburst only after so much aggravation it truly appears he actually showed great restraint.

[bungy007]

Given these exact set of circumstances I firmly believe anyone with any sense of self worth would get angry.

Losing a lot of money and causing all kinds of personal and financial problems all over a mistake by the "officials" is just part of it.

Would make me shout out loud too. Trying to keep that level of frustration inside would be like choking.

of course people coming here for a measly couple of weeks will not realise they need to walk on egg shells around puffed up and bloated egos that can wield dangerous power over you if you embarass them.

Of course people would be a million times more cautious in another country like IRAQ or North Korea, but no not the States and not the UK.

They certainly don't assume Thailand falls into the category of unforgiving and dangerous places you need to be extra careful in, that kind of information is just available to us that live here, even then it seems too hard to grasp by some.

The above reconfirms the below..

Despite the commonality of it nowadays, not everyone is really suitable to become an international traveler, particularly if they fail to consider all the possible ramifications for their actions that may occur while traveling internationally.

One needs to be cautious no matter what country they are entering or exiting and control themselves accordingly.

Indeed, though I have full sympathy for Simon and the outrageous treatment he has received both at the hands of Thai immigration and the purported incompetance of the British Embassy which borders on criminal actions (declaring his passport to be false and refusing to check this statement despite the predicament simon was in), the above two posters are correct. Respect the uniform!

You may ask why? Many reasons come to mind but the most important in my opinion is the power that they can wield over your life. Do not forget, there is a reason why they have joined the biggest gang in the land. They don't want to put in a days work, they are not the sharpest knives in the draw, they are just itching to use the power they have been invested with, they may well feel insecure by our size, superior education, command of their language, percieved size of our wallets etc AND a chance to make some easy money!

Do not risk it out here - you will be on your own so don't look to your embassy to bail you out! I still can't believe how this has got out of hand - a Thai loosing face is not an adversary you need in your life. A member of a gang of Thais loosing face...well they have their ways so that they don't loose face.

[Thai at Heart]

Never mess with customs or immigration anywhere in the world.

By definition you are a long way from home!

[bungy007]

Unbelievable thread, from what I can see no-one offered any help or support to the unfortunate guy? Why is that?

Here's a guy that's got a real problem through no fault of his own, It seems that most of the posters on here either live here or have been here and as such should well know how the Thai officials operate, good or bad is neither here nor there, It's how things are done. I know that I would have gone right off if I was subjected to that <deleted> at the airport. Simon showed a lot of restraint

What really stinks is how the British Embassy handled it, I don't fully understand their role anyway, what are they, a visa outlet? They should have done more and I hope the fence sitting <deleted> that left Simon in the ban ling over the weekend gets some of the same.

Anyway what I've read on here sickens me.

Simon, If you need any help at all, PM me.

Agreed! "There by the grace of God go I" is a phrase that springs to mind. Many of us have been pushed to the limits and though we may not have uttered the words as Simon did we most probably have let them know how we percieve their incompetance,arrogance, myopic approach to red-tape etc -it could be by body language or huffs and puffs etc. I'm sure that they get the message but I think we stayed on the right side of the line.

Simon crossed it for all of the right reasons. Nevertheless he crossed it. From that point onwards he gave them a reason - it doens't have to hold any water as this is their country, they can and do swear that black is white and the emporer's new clothes must have been written about Thailand.

all we can do is support the bloke, give him a place to crash, financial support if needed, and a few nights on the town. Get him ragged, bagged, shagged and sent on his way rejoicing - dress up a couple of 'pretties' in a Thai immigration uniform and a Thai prison uniform and pay their bar fines for the week. Maybe the bar owners could step up and throw all of this on the house for him.

[bungy007]

what's the current situation - is Simon still in the slammer?

Whatever scuzzy publicity Thailand is getting from this - it deserves.

I was in the night bazaar in Chiang Rai last night, Saturday prime time, and only a few farang strolling around - where ordinarily there are hundreds. Vendors looked bored and sad.

mostly cos of the world economic problems

but negative publicity surrounding farangs in thailand sure doesnt help

my point also: The nasty scenario with Simon is just a blip in a bigger cumulative blot on Thailand's reputation. Bad things happen everywhere, it's just with Thailand, bad things seem to be happening more often lately, and weirder also (head dangling on a string from a bridge, etc).

Some things aren't going to change much for the better, such as a plethora of drunk driving deaths at Songkran and at New Years - yet there are some other things which can be readily changed, such as stopping 2-tiered pricing based on physical appearance, and Thai Imm policies that make simple things difficult. Actually all Thai bureaucracy (across the board) makes hassles out of processes that could readily be hassle free. I'm currently facing a long drawn out bunch of bureaucracy to get a 2nd hand motorbike in my name. The paperwork (required for the bike) is the same difficult-to-get paperwork I presented last month to get two different vehicle licenses. It's a thousand unnecessary hassles like that which make Thailand increasingly unpleasant place to try to reside.

Thai authorities know ten thousand ways to make things more difficult, costly, and time consuming, but they show scant willingness or ability - to try to make things less hassle-laden - for farang or for their own ilk. In the case of Simon, Thai bureaucracy went a few steps further (in their anger and retribution) and made his life hellish.

Sadly, its a sign of the times and a reflection of the nationalism that is one of only the few tenuous strings holding the realm together.

[Lozfranco]

"There by the grace of God go I"

all we can do is support the bloke, give him a place to crash, financial support if needed, and a few nights on the town. Get him ragged, bagged, shagged and sent on his way rejoicing - dress up a couple of 'pretties' in a Thai immigration uniform and a Thai prison uniform and pay their bar fines for the week. Maybe the bar owners could step up and throw all of this on the house for him.

The first meeting of the newly established I'M NOT A F***ING IDIOT CLUB will be held at (Simon to name any location in Bangkok). Free ale will be supplied to anyone who can prove they have been held in the monkey house for slagging off the immigration. Watch this space>

Edited March 17, 2009 by Lozfranco

[parryhandy]

This whole sorry affair is an absolute disgrace, especially the behaviour of the British embassy.

I know of a black gentleman from the US who ,also big (ex mp), had similar problems.They tried to charge him 50+days overstay when an official had stamped his passport with the wrong date stamp.His words to immigration were "I aint paying no God dam_n overstay fine".The situation was soon resolved when the guy proceeded to try and phone the US embassy on his mobile.The chief was called and they spotted the error and he was on his way.

[Phatcharanan]

This whole sorry affair is an absolute disgrace, especially the behaviour of the British embassy.

If its true. Just who exactly is saying this is what happened?

I know of a black gentleman from the US who ,also big (ex mp), had similar problems.They tried to charge him 50+days overstay when an official had stamped his passport with the wrong date stamp.His words to immigration were "I aint paying no God dam_n overstay fine".The situation was soon resolved when the guy proceeded to try and phone the US embassy on his mobile.The chief was called and they spotted the error and he was on his way.

[neverdie]

Right but lets not go crazy and totally forget the sillyness of his "crimes" and "losing control". He shouted one sentence "I'm not a fuc_king idiot" and then immediately went looking for a real police officer to clear things up. Hardly the horrible behaviour so many of you have been and keep trying to pin on Simon. And I will ONCE AGAIN remind you that he did that minor outburst only after so much aggravation it truly appears he actually showed great restraint.

So Simon Says. Simon says alot of things, how do you know he's telling the truth?

[david96]

In Australia British passports are issued by the British High Commission, Canberra.

They are issued to persons who have permanent or temporary visas.

He must have lived in Australia for a considerable time prior to 2000 if the passport

is 9 years old.

Consulates do not issue passports.

He appears to have been charged with the equivalent of "assault on an immigration officer

in the course of his lawful duties".

[pilgrim2505]

I have a little story about being threatened with a bit of detention but it was in the UK not Thailand I think its prevalent so I will tell it.

February 14th 2008 I landed in London Heathrow it was the coldest February I can recall for some years the missus says it’s the coldest she has ever been in her life.

It had only been a few week since we had received our EEA Family permit for the Wife and our Daughter our Daughter at the time was just four months old and she was hanging off me in a sling along with a few other bags n bottles attached by straps here there and everywhere.

I hadn’t faced the dilemma before and was confused about which isle to use so I best guessed and finally ended up at a desk,

“Oh no you’ll need a Card from over there, (think it’s a boarding card) one will do I will put your wife and child on it together, after that go to that queue and they will sort you out”, No problem I thought and it was at this point my wife thought that we weren’t in the UK and were having a stop over in India, I had to explain that we had our fair share of nationalities in the UK.

Off we trotted to queue number two which was the wrong queue “go to that line over there but before you do pop in see the Doc show him your TB certificate” ordered my friendly helper at desk 2.

Saw the ladies at the Doctors then went to what I assumed would be our final point off call, “hi Inram” I think that was his name read on his jacket, I showed him my Dutch passport and the two Thai passports,

“oh you’re a Dutch man are you?”

“No No I’m English I just happen to be a dual national”

“Well you will have to go back over there and collect another card fill it in then rejoin the back of the queue!” proclaimed my friend Inram, it was a good 20 people long.

At that point I had had enough I had been to every Funky Queue in London Heathrow, I had a 4 month olds child hanging off me screaming the house down and not one person knew what to do with me. I took the cards & passports off him and suggested that he might get his house in order before bouncing me around the airport like a mong all night long, a few profanities were exchanged and security were called, I was told if I don’t chill out I will be held in custody till the morning till I calm down.

I was wrong and I probably should have handled the situation differently its annoying that the staff at LHR don’t really know what they are doing from time to time. 12 hour flight a few drinks and a screaming child don’t add to my patience I apologised to Inram but I didn’t mean it he wound me up something chronic, I don’t like to be patronised at the best of times.

All in all though I know not to behave like this in Thailand and no I’m not a racist!

[GungaDin]

He must have lived in Australia for a considerable time prior to 2000 if the passport

is 9 years old.

Not necessarily, he could have been a tourist and his passport lost, damaged or destroyed and replaced in Aus.

[brahmburgers]

To me most Thais would rather resolve a dispute quietly and politely than have raging argument, first one to raise their voice seems to lose.

Agreed, Thai people can also get angry if the confrontation escalates but initally they do not seem to.

In the temper dept, Thais have two settings: calm or postal. There's no middle ground.

I've seen it up close several times. For example, you might expect a person who is getting angry about something to gradually raise their voice and/or gradually get firmer in their demands. Not so with Thais. It's a seemingly cool facade, drawn out for awhile, - then, all of a sudden; stark raving blotto, screaming anger personified.

How to educate people to better deal with their anger in increments? Same might be said for Simon, though both sides admit there was a veeeeeeery long wait while Thai authorities scrutinized the one page on his passport. Imm Dept says 1 hour, Simon says 1.5 hours. Either way, that's a heck of a long time to scrutinize an index card sized piece of paper. ....and we hear nothing more about the supposed nud_e passport photo - except that Imm Dept won't release a copy of the photo. ....wonder why (ha ha ha) ....because it had to be a fabricated story by Imm officials designed to bolster their vindictive & petty behavior.

[Journalist]

^And if the social convention of 'jai yen' did not exist, they'd be enraged all the time.

Its only that engrained habit (which has its limitations) that keeps any peace at all !

[animatic]

^And if the social convention of 'jai yen' did not exist, they'd be enraged all the time.

Its only that engrained habit (which has its limitations) that keeps any peace at all !

Pretty much yeah.

[david96]

He must have lived in Australia for a considerable time prior to 2000 if the passport

is 9 years old.

Not necessarily, he could have been a tourist and his passport lost, damaged or destroyed and replaced in Aus.

A tourist would be given a document of identity if he or she had their passport stolen,lost or

damaged so their could continue their travelling and return to the UK. They would apply for a new passport in the UK. A tourist is not classed as a permanent or temporary resident.

[excaliber]

There's no middle ground.[/color]

I've seen it up close several times. For example, you might expect a person who is getting angry about something to gradually raise their voice and/or gradually get firmer in their demands. Not so with Thais. It's a seemingly cool facade, drawn out for awhile, - then, all of a sudden; stark raving blotto, screaming anger personified.

your statement, brahmburger, couldn't be further from the truth. perhaps some, but most Thai's will make every effort to keep things cool unless their face is extremely tarnished with many witnesses or if it becomes physical. I don't how long you've been here but it appears you present yourself and some kind of authority on Thai culture, etc...

Edited March 19, 2009 by excaliber

[brahmburgers]

There's no middle ground.[/color]

I've seen it up close several times. For example, you might expect a person who is getting angry about something to gradually raise their voice and/or gradually get firmer in their demands. Not so with Thais. It's a seemingly cool facade, drawn out for awhile, - then, all of a sudden; stark raving blotto, screaming anger personified.

your statement, brahmburger, couldn't be further from the truth. perhaps some, but most Thai's will make every effort to keep things cool unless their face is extremely tarnished with many witnesses or if it becomes physical. I don't how long you've been here but it appears you present yourself and some kind of authority on Thai culture, etc...

I made that assessment based on personal observations and experiences. Actually, your statement rather backs up mine, to wit:

".....most Thai's will make every effort to keep things cool unless their face is extremely tarnished...."

.....essentially my same observation.

The point I was making was Thais don't know how to deal with anger in incremental stages. In other words, if I'm royally annoyed with someone, I start by letting them know in measured language. If that doesn't work, I tell them again in stronger terms. If the problems persist, I'll either go away or contact authorities or, if seriously harmful, will increase my protests by degrees.

Thais, on the other hand, make appearances that all's ok - until they explode with wrath - with no middle ground.

Edited March 19, 2009 by brahmburgers

[Superted187]

Tall & fit? Yes. Black, or a London Accent? No on both accounts - thankfully, especially the London Accent.

This comment suggests that you see being Black as a negative thing. You've just proved to us all where you have formed your opinion of Simon.

[david96]

When he arrived in Thailand there was no problem with his passport and his arrival card must have been correctly filled in.

When he was due to depart Thailand there appeared there was no problem with the airline when checking in, he would have produced his passport and airline ticket and if he had an

electronic ticket he should have had a copy for immigration and customs. It would appear

that he had no problem here. His check-in baggage would have been accepted by the airline

for loading onto his flight.

When he went to go through passport control immigration detected that something was not correct with his passport, it appeared that it may have been tampered with perhaps the

photograph has been altered in some way. The officer decided to detain him for further questioning and checking of the passport. He would have been taken to a place of interview

and asked several questions regarding his passport, if the photograph was a problem he could have supplied a photo ID card such as a UK drivers licence which would have cleared everything up but he may not have had that.

To determine if a passport is genuine or is a forgery would have required the British Embassy

to hold the passport in their possession and examine it. There was no reason for Thai Immigration to doubt that it was not genuine. What they may have suspected that the passport

was not his.

Passports are normally checked when entering a country and they will only detain you if perhaps that passport is on a stop list.

As he was not permitted to board his flight his check-in baggage would have to be removed

from the aircraft before the flight could leave.

Who is holding his passport, seeing that it is the property of the British government it would

be normal for them to hold it, and after it had been proved genuine it would be returned to the holder.

His attitude towards immigration would have reinforced their suspicions of the person they were interviewing.

There is more to this case and the British Embassy knows what it is and of course that information is confidential at the present time.

(It is not what is in the newspaper articles on this subject, it is what has not been mentioned

that is important).

[Lozfranco]

His attitude towards immigration would have reinforced their suspicions of the person they were interviewing.

There is more to this case and the British Embassy knows what it is and of course that information is confidential at the present time.

(It is not what is in the newspaper articles on this subject, it is what has not been mentioned

that is important).

You work for the British Embassy?

[bungy007]

He must have lived in Australia for a considerable time prior to 2000 if the passport

is 9 years old.

Not necessarily, he could have been a tourist and his passport lost, damaged or destroyed and replaced in Aus.

That happened to me in Thailand, which is where my passport was issued from

[bungy007]

^And if the social convention of 'jai yen' did not exist, they'd be enraged all the time.

Its only that engrained habit (which has its limitations) that keeps any peace at all !

I think it's more because of being caught in the middle of Indo-China. On one side is the 3,500 year old cast system which condemms you at birth - if you are low down on the scale you just have to like it or lump it! On the other side is China - well, that says it all!

Just remember those very wise words of the song as they hung on the crosses waiting for the birds to peck out their eyes 'Always look on the bright side of life'!

[GungaDin]

He must have lived in Australia for a considerable time prior to 2000 if the passport

is 9 years old.

Not necessarily, he could have been a tourist and his passport lost, damaged or destroyed and replaced in Aus.

That happened to me in Thailand, which is where my passport was issued from

Me too , but not according to our resident British Embassy / FCO expert above.

[bungy007]

His attitude towards immigration would have reinforced their suspicions of the person they were interviewing.

There is more to this case and the British Embassy knows what it is and of course that information is confidential at the present time.

(It is not what is in the newspaper articles on this subject, it is what has not been mentioned

that is important).

You work for the British Embassy?

'reinforced their suspicions' is the operative phrase here. Nothing concrete - no evidence to speak of just purely gut instinct. And these people are in charge of national security? Why do we not hear anything from the Thai government about this traversty of justice?

'Mark, one of your fellow Englishmen is looking at languishing in a stinking hel_l hole - sort it out and get him back to his family with a well filled compensation package!'

[Thai at Heart]

Yup, FCO Bangkok issues passports. Have been in the back office there, one hel_l of a big vault holding the covers and and plastic inlays with the watermarks and security marks.

[GungaDin]

Don't forget, the cock-up started in Melbourne, not Bangkok.

[Blue2]

When he arrived in Thailand there was no problem with his passport and his arrival card must have been correctly filled in.

When he was due to depart Thailand there appeared there was no problem with the airline when checking in, he would have produced his passport and airline ticket and if he had an

electronic ticket he should have had a copy for immigration and customs. It would appear

that he had no problem here. His check-in baggage would have been accepted by the airline

for loading onto his flight.

When he went to go through passport control immigration detected that something was not correct with his passport, it appeared that it may have been tampered with perhaps the

photograph has been altered in some way. The officer decided to detain him for further questioning and checking of the passport. He would have been taken to a place of interview

and asked several questions regarding his passport, if the photograph was a problem he could have supplied a photo ID card such as a UK drivers licence which would have cleared everything up but he may not have had that.

To determine if a passport is genuine or is a forgery would have required the British Embassy

to hold the passport in their possession and examine it. There was no reason for Thai Immigration to doubt that it was not genuine. What they may have suspected that the passport

was not his.

Passports are normally checked when entering a country and they will only detain you if perhaps that passport is on a stop list.

As he was not permitted to board his flight his check-in baggage would have to be removed

from the aircraft before the flight could leave.

Who is holding his passport, seeing that it is the property of the British government it would

be normal for them to hold it, and after it had been proved genuine it would be returned to the holder.

His attitude towards immigration would have reinforced their suspicions of the person they were interviewing.

There is more to this case and the British Embassy knows what it is and of course that information is confidential at the present time.

(It is not what is in the newspaper articles on this subject, it is what has not been mentioned

that is important).

What absolute nonsense, greatly flawed and contradictory.

Simon arrived in Thailand with his friend, it is agreed that there was no problem with his passport on arrival.

On departure at immigration control with the same friend he arrived with, an immigration officer (female) took a cursory glance at the passport and passed it to an officer behind her.

The Pattaya senior immigration officer has issued a press release stating that the passport photograph was not correct, that Simon was improperly dressed in his passport photograph, and at the same time criticized British immigration standards and practices.

In any event The British embassy in Thailand have confirmed that the passport was correctly issued, to the British citizen Simon Burrowes.

The officer did detain Simon and his friend, it would appear that Simon and his friend were not taken to a place of interview.

Simon was asked at interview where he came from, and told he could be deported to where he came from, crucially these questions were put to him before the British Embassy had had a chance to physically examine the passport.

You are absolutely right in your assertion that there was no reason for Thai immigration to doubt if the passport was genuine or not, but they did. it is here in particular where your above post is contradictory.

Yes It is generally agreed that Thai immigration did not believe that the passport was his, and the reason given by Thai immigration is that of the photograph.

it is also generally accepted that Thai immigration did not believe that the passport was Simon's because he is a black man with a British passport, and it would appear that you support this position.

Yes passports are normally checked on entry and if there are any problems, the point of entry is where they should be identified and dealt with, by professional and trained immigration staff, particularly in the present global terrorist climate.

If the passport as you suggest was on a stop-list, the British counsel in Thailand would not have confirmed as they have done, that the passport was genuine, and could therefore be returned to the holder. Lets not of course forget the undue delay in their confirmation and communication causing unnecessary suffering to Simon as he was at this time languishing in a Thai prison.

What has been conveniently left out in the above post are the actions of the Thai police after confirmation of the passport, which is that Simon was detained further then charged with being rude to an immigration officer.

As all are aware Simon is now out on bail, and to prevent him leaving Thailand, Thai police have retained his passport.

With regard to his "attitude" toward immigration - and what a loaded word that is - "reinforcing their suspicions of the person they were interviewing". He was asked where he came from and he replied calmly London, at interview. It would appear that he became understandably upset at the behavior of the immigration officer before interview, he received no answers to his reasonable questions, he was mocked and laughed at.

The only "more" to this case david96 is in your fevered imagination.