Brit Faces Two Years In Thai Jail For Being 'rude'.

[Sabum]

You did read what he posted right? His big sin was to lose his temper when they where mocking him (after making him miss his non refundable flight and treat him like a lying criminal) and say "Im not a fuc_king idiot!" He then stormed off to find a REAL authority since he could not believe these completely unprofessional people that were making fun of him on top of everything else were really authorities at all! They behaved like ignorant children for crying out loud!

Whats all this possible stuff you speak of? Why would anyone start imagining what happened when we have his word right here?!

[thaiwanderer]

If he wasn't getting paid in Thailand he wasn't working in Thailand.

He was just advising someone on their training privately.

If he accepted pay in Thailand then work permit rules apply.

money has nothing to do with whether a work permit is required

Edited March 15, 2009 by thaiwanderer

[ClaytonSeymour]

You did read what he posted right? His big sin was to lose his temper when they where mocking him (after making him miss his non refundable flight and treat him like a lying criminal) and say "Im not a fuc_king idiot!" He then stormed off to find a REAL authority since he could not believe these completely unprofessional people that were making fun of him on top of everything else were really authorities at all! They behaved like ignorant children for crying out loud!

Whats all this possible stuff you speak of? Why would anyone start imagining what happened when we have his word right here?!

Assuming his version of events are correct, his biggest sin was failing to prepare himself thoroughly prior to his trip. Same situation & a different country, storming off from the immigration authorities may have resulted in a bullet in the back.

Whilst we do have his word, that doesn't mean he's telling the whole truth. If we took the word of everyone accused of committing a crime - the prisons would be empty.

[thaiwanderer]

Read and judge as you please

Thank you

the guy is an idiot

Care to elaborate? What he posted seems pretty straightforward, what you posted smacks of idiot more than anything I've read.

even on his version of events he appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder and a stange superiority / persecution complex

he only has himself to blame for the original situation he found himself in

having now apparently received advice on 'thai culture' he is making matters worse by his irrational moaning and accusations the reasons for what happened

Edited March 15, 2009 by thaiwanderer

[sriracha john]

You did read what he posted right? His big sin was to lose his temper when they where mocking him (after making him miss his non refundable flight and treat him like a lying criminal) and say "Im not a fuc_king idiot!" He then stormed off to find a REAL authority since he could not believe these completely unprofessional people that were making fun of him on top of everything else were really authorities at all! They behaved like ignorant children for crying out loud!

Whats all this possible stuff you speak of? Why would anyone start imagining what happened when we have his word right here?!

Yes, I've read what he and others have said and it IS just possible... that his version of the events don't necessarily reflect the reality of the events definitively.

Do the words he posts on a blog have the same veracity as those put forth as sworn testimony in a court of law? No.

Similar to his, as yet, unsubstantiated accusations of being beaten, there's a difference between blogging it and having evidence or corroborative testimony presented in court.

Edited March 15, 2009 by sriracha john

[GungaDin]

Read and judge as you please

Thank you

the guy is an idiot

Ahh, the keyboard warrior strikes again.

[ClaytonSeymour]

even on his version of events he appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder and a stange superiority / persecution complex

Agreed.

[GungaDin]

even on his version of events he appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder and a stange superiority / persecution complex

Agreed.

What a shame you two warriors aren't black, tall & fit with a London accent!

[ClaytonSeymour]

even on his version of events he appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder and a stange superiority / persecution complex

Agreed.

What a shame you two warriors aren't black, tall & fit with a London accent!

Tall & fit? Yes. Black, or a London Accent? No on both accounts - thankfully, especially the London Accent.

[brahmburgers]

Read and judge as you please

Thank you

the guy is an idiot

even on his version of events he appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder and a stange superiority / persecution complex

Agreed.

The guy is a spirited young man who got sucked in to an extremely frustrating situation. He didn't strike anyone. The worst he did, from both the Thai Imm's telling and his own, is get angry and possibly snatched his passport away from an authority and possibly told them they were 'f*cking idiots." Just a note: Thais cuss at, and call farang all sorts of ugly words in their own tongue often. It's common, though two wrongs don't make a right. So I hope no one is harboring any fairy tale thoughts that Thais are too prudent to cuss.

I don't justify all he did, but I can certainly relate to it - were I in a similarly frustrating and intimidating scenario. The T.Visa posters that call him an idiot or talk about massive chip on his shoulder are the types who expect everyone to kowtow to authority and generally act like you're supposed to in all situations. They're like the stern father figures who says, "do as I say" - even though they've been known to act like a drunk & rude jackasses at times.

As for dissing the guy's writing style, that's beside the point.

[thaiwanderer]

The guy is a spirited young man who got sucked in to an extremely frustrating situation. He didn't strike anyone. The worst he did, from both the Thai Imm's telling and his own, is get angry and possibly snatched his passport away from an authority and possibly told them they were 'f*cking idiots." Just a note: Thais cuss at, and call farang all sorts of ugly words in their own tongue often. It's common, though two wrongs don't make a right. So I hope no one is harboring any fairy tale thoughts that Thais are too prudent to cuss.

I don't justify all he did, but I can certainly relate to it - were I in a similarly frustrating and intimidating scenario. The T.Visa posters that call him an idiot or talk about massive chip on his shoulder are the types who expect everyone to kowtow to authority and generally act like you're supposed to in all situations. They're like the stern father figures who says, "do as I say" - even though they've been known to act like a drunk & rude jackasses at times.

As for dissing the guy's writing style, that's beside the point.

I can relate to being frustrated and doing regrettable things.

I am not such an apologist that I cannot imagine these particluar officals may well have been rude, racist and or derogatory.

Immigration officals at any border have very wide discretionary powers, which are frequently exercised in a surly manner at best.

Problems arise and there is a correct way to deal with things without kowtowing that is very far from what even he admits to doing.

What he did was idiotic, the way he is dealing with it now even more so.

As to the other poster's keyboard warrior comment I subscribe to the emotivist theory of forum posting (including my own) so boo/hooray to you to.

[tartempion]

Reading his story, if he would NOT have uttered this "I am not a <deleted> idiot" he would still have spent 11 days in prison, his plane having left anyway and being charged for carrying a false passport, isn't?

Hmmmm, still many venerable and respectful board members want to hang the man.

I suggest y'all move to Iran to become judges there, you will be given stones to throw to the defendants.

[Journalist]

Its very easy for a foreigner to interpret the Thai laugh that follows some perceived screw-up as being a sign of defiance and contempt.

Those who've been around Thais more know it doesn't mean to offend. Its still annoying though.

CRASH...'whoops, sorry. ha ha ha'.

[Lozfranco]

Unbelievable thread, from what I can see no-one offered any help or support to the unfortunate guy? Why is that?

Here's a guy that's got a real problem through no fault of his own, It seems that most of the posters on here either live here or have been here and as such should well know how the Thai officials operate, good or bad is neither here nor there, It's how things are done. I know that I would have gone right off if I was subjected to that <deleted> at the airport. Simon showed a lot of restraint

What really stinks is how the British Embassy handled it, I don't fully understand their role anyway, what are they, a visa outlet? They should have done more and I hope the fence sitting <deleted> that left Simon in the ban ling over the weekend gets some of the same.

Anyway what I've read on here sickens me.

Simon, If you need any help at all, PM me.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Lozfranco

[PoorSucker]

If he wasn't getting paid in Thailand he wasn't working in Thailand.

He was just advising someone on their training privately.

If he accepted pay in Thailand then work permit rules apply.

“ Work ” means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

Source: Department of Employment

[Sabum]

If Thai "officials" were mimicking and mocking me after making me miss my flight I'd storm off to look for a REAL authority too, and so would ALL of you, garaunteed.

From the beginniing this has all been about FACE. The Thais made a huge assumption and mistake and when that mistake is pointed out the classic Thai response is to go on the attack. NEVER TO ADMIT WRONG OR APOLOGISE, NEVER. All of you who live here KNOW this, I don't know why you are pretending this is not the way it is.

If this was another country without this bizarre sense of face at all costs the people that made the mistake would immediately recognise how a man in Simons position wrongly accused and treated badly could get angry, and he would be forgiven for raising his voice and stomping off. It would just be common sense......

If a Thai does something wrong to me by accident and I argue with them they get angry, then when a witness or someone comes along and explains how the Thai guy was wrong and you can see recognition and understanding light up in their eyes they immediately get VERY angry, the embarassment they feel is 99% if the time translated to "YOU BAD MAN" and anger directed at me. Ive seen this time and time again, how can any of you not have the exact same experiences?

I guess it is easier to say Simon is lying and continue having your delusion that this is not the situation in Thailand, so you don't have to ever admit that YOU could ever fall vicitim of it. Hiding behind a lie doesn't make you any safer..... total foolishness.

[Sabum]

" Work " means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

Source: Department of Employment

By that definition painting my own bedroom requires a work permit.

[Jingthing]

The people attacking Simon probably could make a great case that the people gassed at Auschwitz were asking for it. They do not deserve any further attention from people of good will.

Does anyone in Phuket know how Simon is getting along right now and whether he will be properly prepared for his trial (decent clothes, etc.)?

[PhilHarries]

If this was another country without this bizarre sense of face at all costs the people that made the mistake would immediately recognise how a man in Simons position wrongly accused and treated badly could get angry, and he would be forgiven for raising his voice and stomping off. It would just be common sense......

If it were another country without this bizarre sense of face he may well have found himself ever so slightly shot.

By that definition painting my own bedroom requires a work permit.

In theory I guess the answer is yes, you are potentially taking work away from a Thai national.

If what Simon writes is correct, and I have no reason to doubt it as neither do I have cause to believe it, he should be commended on his restraint. In the same circumstances I, and I suspect 99% of the people commenting on this thread, would have lost their rag. However we have the benefit of commenting and criticising from the safety and comfort of our own homes in a place we choose to be.

I have to admit when this first hit the forum I thought he was an idiot and deserved a good slap for his outburst (but not jail time). However I now have a better understanding of the circumstances, assuming his version is the truth, he was still an idiot for losing it but I can understand his actions.

There, but for the grace of God, go a lot of us.

[Journalist]

The people attacking Simon probably could make a great case that the people gassed at Auschwitz were asking for it. They do not deserve any further attention from people of good will.

The contrary applies. The people delivered to the extermination area of Auschwitz-Birkenau just filed in and accepted their fate, even those who realised they weren't going to the showers for de-lousing.

If more had taken Simon's lead and made a fuss, ...or in their case, mobbed the guards en masse, they would have overwhelmed them.

Yes, they'd have been machine-gunned, but better that than just taking it meekly.

[ExoticMatter]

My first time in Bangkok in 2003 at Don Muang consisted of me waking up (free drink on plane) after a long flight and not filling in the embarkation form. After joining the back of the queue I eventually and naively faced my first Thai offical, anyway because no form he took 20 pound from me, did the form on the spot and I was in.(second time its cost me money to get thru an airport). Anyone else?

[Briggsy]

My first time in Bangkok in 2003 at Don Muang consisted of me waking up (free drink on plane) after a long flight and not filling in the embarkation form. After joining the back of the queue I eventually and naively faced my first Thai offical, anyway because no form he took 20 pound from me, did the form on the spot and I was in.(second time its cost me money to get thru an airport). Anyone else?

???????????????

[Briggsy]

My first time in Bangkok in 2003 at Don Muang consisted of me waking up (free drink on plane) after a long flight and not filling in the embarkation form. After joining the back of the queue I eventually and naively faced my first Thai offical, anyway because no form he took 20 pound from me, did the form on the spot and I was in.(second time its cost me money to get thru an airport). Anyone else?

Some lunatic on this board is going to tell you that you wisely followed Chuck Norris' advice and respected an authority under any circumstances and properly paid your corruption/extortion fee to enter the country lawfully.

[PoorSucker]

" Work " means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

Source: Department of Employment

By that definition painting my own bedroom requires a work permit.

Are you thinking about it, that also requires WP.

[brahmburgers]

" Work " means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

Source: Department of Employment

By that definition painting my own bedroom requires a work permit.

Are you thinking about it, that also requires WP.

how about washing the dishes, or scraping the mud off my boots? .....is that taking employment away from a Thai person and/or doing a job that a Thai person could do?

BTW, here are two listings on the list of official jobs that a farang is forbidden to do in Thailand:

make lead type (for printing) of Thai characters

hammer begging bowls out of metal.

So, keep your nose clean boys, or some Thai will be designated to clean it for you.

[Phatcharanan]

It seems that the only version so far available is what Simon himself states. Does not happen to make it a true 100% version of what happened though.

I thought his summary of events was quite telling in some respects. He goes on about how big he is, how black, how confident he is in his manner.

That can also come across to Thais as being "arrogant". I,m sure we have all seen the foreigners here who assume they are lord and master of all they survey.

(I have never been to Phuket....but only ever seen a few blacks there in a few weeks? Is that right?)

One of the posters here "Sabum" says he guarantees we would also get angry and storm out etc etc etc. Errrrrrrrrrr no. I think I would be doing my upmost to be polite at all times, even in the face of what may seem to be a ridiculous situation. This ain`t my country so I am going to be real careful not to piss off authorities.

PS. Work Permits are required even for voluntary work in Thailand. I forget who posted............WP not needed if there are no wages. But, as usual with many so called "experts" here.......quite incorrect.

[Sabum]

Given these exact set of circumstances I firmly believe anyone with any sense of self worth would get angry. I am completely capable of putting myself in other peoples shoes, perhaps some of you here are not. I can feel the outrage and the injustice this man felt, without even bringing the racism issue into it. The Thai "officials" ridiculed him and berated him for his completely legitimate questions regarding his plane possibly leaving without him, and then the plane did leave after they angrily told him it would not and to stop asking. Losing a lot of money and causing all kinds of personal and financial problems all over a mistake by the "officials" is just part of it. Would make me shout out loud too. Trying to keep that level of frustration inside would be like choking.

The fact that nobody seems to be remembering that Thailand is made out to look like a tourist paradise and not a gestapo type country surprises me, of course people coming here for a measly couple of weeks will not realise they need to walk on egg shells around puffed up and bloated egos that can wield dangerous power over you if you embarass them.

Of course people would be a million times more cautious in another country like IRAQ or North Korea, but no not the States and not the UK. They certainly don't assume Thailand falls into the category of unforgiving and dangerous places you need to be extra careful in, that kind of information is just available to us that live here, even then it seems too hard to grasp by some.

[C4Chilli]

Its very easy for a foreigner to interpret the Thai laugh that follows some perceived screw-up as being a sign of defiance and contempt.

Those who've been around Thais more know it doesn't mean to offend. Its still annoying though.

CRASH...'whoops, sorry. ha ha ha'.

Yes this is something I was also thinking about.

Thai people tend to laugh or giggle when a situation is not going smoothly and there is a possible confrontation looming.

This can be percieved by many farang that they are extracting the urine which ensues in the farang getting even more angry because he thinks the Thai person is mocking him.

In the first stages of a confrontation people in the west get angrier and Thai people get happier . This is a concept that, initially when we come to Thailand, we can't grasp. Yes, it can be annoying.

The reason they do this, it seems, is to difuse the situation and avoid conflict.

To me most Thais would rather resolve a dispute quietly and politely than have raging argument, first one to raise their voice seems to lose.

Agreed, Thai people can also get angry if the confrontation escalates but initally they do not seem to.

I can see how Simon lost his cool when they were giggling, especially if, as his account suggests, he felt Thai people viewed him as somewhat unusual anyway.

[Jai Dee]

Some off-topic and racist remarks have been deleted from this topic.

Any more and the offender(s) will be suspended from the forum.

[johna]

The weekend in prison became four days before I saw a british embassy representative who enthused that I should be released by day six. By day eleven I was told that the authorities had discovered that my passport was genuine so the police were going to probably charge me with insulting an immigration officer by using the 'f' word at the airport when I shouted at them. i was to be held up to 84 days pending court.

I am now out on bail and what you have read gets more and more unimaginable.Then I was scared. now, you have no idea

It seems to me that the charge of insulting an immigration officer was only added after it was discovered that his passport was genuine.

That smacks of vindictiveness.