Non Imm 'o' Visa End At Same Time As Work Permit ?

[Khun Bob]

Hi

This is a situation I may be in and would appreciate your advice on this one.

I apply for an recieve a Multi Entry Non Imm 'O' visa, which will be good for one year.

Whilst in Thailand I take up work and receive a work permit, but decide that the work is not for me and decide to terminate the contract and, as i understand it, the work permit will terminate as well.

My concern is that I will have time remaining on the original Multi Entry Non Imm 'O' visa and would like to spend that time in Thailand. Does the Visa terminate at the same time, as the work permit, or will the valid length of the visa be unaffected by the work permit being terminated ?

Thanks and look forward to hear from you

[Indo-Siam]

A visa is unaffected by anything that happens inside Thailand. A visa cannot be extended. It generally cannot be cancelled - except by issuance of a higher precedence visa. A visa is simply an authorization to enter a country.

What you may be inquiring about is an entry permit extension - which is something that is issued inside Thailand.

With a long-term entry permit extension obtained based upon support of a Thai spouse, losing a work permit has no effect upon the extension - your extension is purely based upon demonstrating legal income - either from legal employmemt inside Thailand, or from money coming in from outside Thailand. In-between extensions, the Thai authorities generally do not audit you, or seek to change yoiur entry permit status.

Good luck!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

Bangkok

[email protected]

www.thaistartup.com

[Khun Bob]

Steve - thanks for your reply. I dont think I am referring to the entry permit extension - but if I have employment and do not want to do 90 visa runs, then I guess this is what I would have.

There is one further situation.

If I had a Multi Entry Non Imm 'O' to begin with and then the employers/Thai Government insist I change to a non imm B for the employment. If I choose to terminate the employment and consequently work permit, then would the non imm 'B' also terminate at the same time ? This would mean that I would have to leave the country and not be able to use the Non Imm 'B' visa till its expiry date to stay in Thailand.

Thanks and look forward to your replies...

[Sunny Valentine]

Steve - thanks for your reply.  I dont think I am referring to the entry permit extension - but if I have employment and do not want to do 90 visa runs, then I guess this is what I would have.

There is one further situation.

If I had a Multi Entry Non Imm 'O' to begin with and then the employers/Thai Government insist I change to a non imm B for the employment.  If I choose to terminate the employment and consequently work permit, then would the non imm 'B' also terminate at the same time ?  This would mean that I would have to leave the country and not be able to use the Non Imm 'B' visa till its expiry date to stay in Thailand.

Thanks and look forward to your replies...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to break in, but:

Would there be any good reason for an employer to insist in changing the employee's Visa from O (Marriage) to B?

Any benefits for the Company? Or this question only academic ?

Sunny

[Indo-Siam]

Again, you are probably mixing up the "visa" with the entry permit.

I say again - nothing tht happens INSIDE Thailand has any affect on the VISA. Your visa's validity lasts until its expiration date - blissfully unconcerned about what you do in or out of Thailand.

I have no direct recollection of ever being involved with such a case, but I suspect strongly that if a Class O entry permit was extended on the basis of "qualifying employment for a qualifying employer" (which is how my Class O visa is extended) - instead of on the basis of "supporting a Thai spouse," then cancellation of the work permit will not - in practice - cause the Labor Ministry to notify Immigration and initiate cancellation of your extension. They let you deal with the issue of figuring out how to continuesupporting your Thai spouse.

This situation will, however, render you ineligible to renew an extension of that entry permit.

Good luck!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Sunny Valentine]

Thanks, Indo-Siam.

And although I tried to learn a lot being on this forum for some time yet (never trust border-runners, despise backpackers and english teachers, and so on ...;-)) I still have to try hard to even vaguely navigate around some of the fine print details, I am afraid .....

Havin said that, in my humble understanding a process could (at least in theory) go like this:

Foreign Man marries Thai woman. Goes to Thai Embassy with Documents of marriage, and obtains a 3 Month O Visa based on support of his wife. Has 400000 Bt in Bank, goes to local immigration, gets a 1 Year permit of stay. Now, after a while, he might get bored and/or he sees the end of his funds in foreign country coming in a Year maybe or two, gets a Job offer, and a Work Permit. He might as well stay on his One Year stay, he might even extend this on bases of support the wife, as now he has legal proof of money earned legally in Thailand. Now: Is this status of any concern for the employer? Would the empoyer have any good reason whatsoever to ask or force the Empoyee into going the B Visa way?

Sunny

[autonomous_unit]

...Would the empoyer have any good reason whatsoever to ask or force the Empoyee into going the B Visa way?

Sunny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In short, No. It is actually easier for an employer to get a WP for someone on an O visa than it is to get a WP for someone in order to sponsor a B visa (the company has fewer criteria to meet).

Most people get a job offer and apply for a WP and B visa in combination. This is why many people think the two are intertwined in some way. Anyone who encourages you to convert O to B does not understand how the system handles spouses of Thai nationals. (Unfortunately, many people I have encountered here do not seem to grasp the difference between their knowledge of an option and the possible existence of that option. So I have witnessed strong denial of facts later exposed by a bit more digging on my part.)

The most complicated part of having a WP with an O visa is keeping the WP from expiring, rather than the reverse. The WP can only be granted for the period of your stay, which is 90 days on the basic O visa. So you have to leave and reenter (with a valid reentry permit or multi-entry O visa) before that 90 day period is up, and then get the WP extended based on the new 90 day stay.

Applying for an extension of stay works similarly but without the need to cross borders. You become a frequent tourist to government offices instead. When you apply, you still have a WP only valid through your first 90 day entry. As your application is processed, you will get short extensions of stay marked "under consideration". You need to get the WP extended to match each of these until the 1 year extension is approved. There are legal and courier services to do this for you for a small fee, should you not wish to visit the Labor Department yourself each month. There is always a government fee.

[Indo-Siam]

The only reason a company would "force you" to actually leave the country and obtain a Class B visa (to replace a Class O visa) would be to secure exclusive leverage over your immigration status. I would not work for such an employer.

But - in relation to an entry permit, any non-immigrant entry permit EXCEPT one issued as a retirement status - whether it is based on a Class O or a Class B visa - can be extended under either of two criteria:

1) Support of a Thai spouse

2) Qualifying employment for a qualifying employer

There is no "conversion" from Class O to Class B (or the oppposite) - the extensions themselves have no classification. The distinction is in the application process - which is slightly different for the two categories.

Good luck.

Steve

Indo-Siam

[lopburi3]

Foreign Man marries Thai woman. Goes to Thai Embassy with Documents of marriage, and obtains a 3 Month O Visa based on support of his wife.

Sunny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Would just like to add that this visa is for a family visit and should have no requirement for support of his wife.

[Khun Bob]

Thanks all for your replies so far.

Some more information and my understanding so far.

1. I'd get a multi entry non imm "O" - not based on the support of a Thai spouse. This will allow me for stays of up to 90 days, and then I’d need to leave the country.

2. In Thailand be offered a job and get the necessary work permit and keep the Non Imm "O"

3. Get an entry permit, good for a year, based on being employed in Thailand

4. Decide that the job isn’t for me (this may not be the case) and I would imagine that the work permit expires with the end of the job

5. Would like to stay in Thailand for the remainder of the entry permit (which was based upon being employed) or for the remainder of the validity of the multi entry visa, doing 90 day visa runs.

It is point 5 that concerns me - but fro what you have said above the entry permit would not be cancelled in your experience. Also the visa would be good regardless of what happens with respect to entry permits and work permits. Am I right in thinking then that when a 1 year entry permit is issued this does not cause the visa to expire ?

Apologies in advance if I have misunderstood (and there is a high likelihood of that) - but I am learning even after reading Thai visa for some time !!

[lopburi3]

Thanks all for your replies so far.

Some more information and my understanding so far.

1. I'd get a multi entry non imm "O" - not based on the support of a Thai spouse.  This will allow me for stays of up to 90 days, and then I’d need to leave the country.

2. In Thailand be offered a job and get the necessary work permit and keep the Non Imm "O"

3. Get an entry permit, good for a year, based on being employed in Thailand

4. Decide that the job isn’t for me (this may not be the case) and I would imagine that the work permit expires with the end of the job

5. Would like to stay in Thailand for the remainder of the entry permit (which was based upon being employed) or for the remainder of the validity of the multi entry visa, doing 90 day visa runs.

It is point 5 that concerns me - but fro what you have said above the entry permit would not be cancelled in your experience.  Also the visa would be good regardless of what happens with respect to entry permits and work permits.  Am I right in thinking then that when a 1 year entry permit is issued this does not cause the visa to expire ?

Apologies in advance if I have misunderstood (and there is a high likelihood of that) - but I am learning even after reading Thai visa for some time !!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you, or are you not, married to a Thai? Or other extension of stay catagory such as supporting your child? Answers to your questions seem to assume you are, (because that is the normal reason to have an O visa), but I do not see where you say that. If you are married the O visa extension of stay should be for support and extension would not have anything to do with employment as has been pointed out. But if you are not married I have some doubts you will receive any extension of an O visa (for employment) but have no direct knowledge.

[Indo-Siam]

The quick answer is (for the third time): Your entry visa - assuming it is a one-year, multiple entry visa - is unaffected by anything that happens inside Thailand.

You can come and go from Thailand as often as you want, with or without a job, or work permit - or even without the wife (she died, or divorced you). The visa does not know or care - but it remains valid for entry until its expiration date. Every time you enter Thailand with that visa - even if you enter one day before it expires - you will receive a 90 day entry permit.

Before asking a question about this again, using a slightly different variation of the sceanrio, just apply the following steps:

1) Are you outside Thailand? If yes, proceed.

2) Do you have a non-immigrant visa" If yes, proceed.

3) Is the visa expiration date some time in the future (by 1 to 365 days)? If yes, then you can enter Thailand and receive a 90-day entry stamp upon arrival.

Period.

Note: There is nothing in that sequence about a job, a work permit, a wife, or an existing extension.

Good luck!

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[sas_cars]

Steve,I assume what he's trying to ask is :

What's going to happen to his entry permit which has already been extended for 1 full year on basis of employment,If he quits the job?I strongly suspect that he can still stay in the country until his extended entry permit expires,even though the basis for extension(employment) is no more.

What do you think?Will his exteded entry permit remain valid even though he's not working anymore?

[Sunny Valentine]

Ok, thanks for clarification so far.

One more though:

Scenario: Married to Thai lady, arrived in Thailand with 3 Month O Visa, applied 1 Year extension on 400 000 Bt in Bank, granted, then (before expiry of 1Year period) offered Job and WP (40 000 Bt a month). With WP and letter from empoyer and all other necessary bells and whistles you have applied for another 1 Year extension based on Support of Thai Wife, this time qualified by your legal income in Thailand.

Now, while still within this 2nd 1 Year permission, the Job contract is terminated.

You are still able to provide 400000 Bt from abroad.

What to do?

a.) Wait until 30 Days before End of permission to stay, and then reappy with Money in BAnk?

b.) Transfer funds immediately, go to Immigration now.

c.) Leave Country before your time is up, get a new 3 Month Non-O, and apply for 1 Year with money in Bank again?

Of course, getting a new Job is another option, but let's leave this out for now.

Sunny

[Indo-Siam]

You should pursue choice "a." There is a slight (5%) chance that a problematic situation develops, and you will be forced by circumstances to follow choice "c". If that happens, just go with the flow. But - it is unlikely that you will have to leave the country. You just requalify for another renewal - same category (support of Thai spouse), but using different evidence (money in bank remitted from outside Thailand). Routine. The fact that you have already secured two previous long-term extensions should be in your favor.

Good luck.

Steve

Indo-Siam

[PeaceBlondie]

Indo-Siam, you're always one of the most informed and informative posters here, as well as consistently accurate and helpful. I wonder if the OP is confusing the O multientry visa with the B multientry. As a teacher, I'm reluctant to get a WP to go with my B multientry, for several reasons:

a. Rumour has it that once a B visa holder gets a work permit, his visa becomes connected to his work and that WP. Thus, if he loses his job, he has 7 days to get a new job or leave the Kingdom. You seem to be contradicting that.

b. The local provincial labour office doesn't have a clue about issuing a work permit to a teacher ("Duhh, we've never done that before...") but he's otherwise very polite and helpful, even giving me irrelevant information like the "One-Stop" handbook.

c. It's not much trouble to leave the Kingdom every 90 days, but it would be nearly impossible to get new employment within 7 days, or obtain a visa as a retiree within 7 days (without going across the world).

Since this thread relates to O visas and WP's, can we say that the answers might be different for B visas and WP's?

Edited January 16, 2005 by PeaceBlondie

[Indo-Siam]

90 day non-immigrant entry permits issued in connection with either a Class O or Class B visa are themselves unrelated to, and unaffected by work status.

If you EXTEND on entry permit on the basis of qualifying employment fora quaifuying employer, then when that employment eends, so does the long-term extenison - and you are typically given seven days to leave the country. Thsi affects your ENTRY PERMIT, not the underlying visa. If the visa is not yet expired, then it is still valid for a 90-day entry - you just have to make a bordercrossing run.

In practice, I suspect that if an entry permit issued against a Class O visa is extended several times (annula renewals) on the basis of spousal support, loss of job/work permit will not instantly trigger cancellation of extension - you will generally be allowed to complete your current extension - but they will not further extend you, without you freshly demonstrating ability to meet one of the qualifying standards (qualifying employment at 40,000 baht per month, or 400,000 baht brought in from overseas).

But - if Immigration is for some reason actively looking for an excuse to expell someone, I suspect that loss of job by a spousal support extension holder could still result in summary cancellation of the extension. But this would not be routine.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks a half-million satang, Indo-Siam. So, let's say I get a new multi-entry B in late April, return to Thailand about Mayday, and get a one-year contract from May 2005 to 2006. Then the provincial labour official figures out how to issue me a WP by July 2005, if I'm lucky (let's say I go to Mae Sai in early July for the 90 day stamp). Once I get that WP, I don't have to do any more 90 day stamp runs until the visa, the extension, or my contract expire, and then I'm back to 90 day stamp runs until the B visa issued in April 2005 runs out. Whew! This has got to be one of the most difficult 'supposedly developing nations' in which to work at something as simple as teaching a foreign language for peanuts..

But if I get the retirement visa when I'm back home in April, then I probably can't work legally, can I?

Err, I'm only kidding about those half-million satang.

[costas]

The only reason a company would "force you" to actually leave the country and obtain a Class B visa (to replace a Class O visa) would be to secure exclusive leverage over your immigration status.  I would not work for such an employer.

But - in relation to an entry permit, any non-immigrant entry permit EXCEPT one issued as a retirement  status - whether it is based on a Class O or a Class B visa - can be extended under either of two criteria:

1)  Support of a Thai spouse

2)  Qualifying employment for a qualifying employer

There is no "conversion" from Class O to Class B (or the oppposite) - the extensions themselves have no classification.  The distinction is in the application process - which is slightly different for the two categories.

Good luck.

Steve

Indo-Siam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi,

sorry to barge in, but i currently am facing a very similar situation.

Lopburi has answered my posts, but since have had a development.

i have non-O based on marriage, and got a job as a teacher.

No 400k in the bank, and am getting less than 30 k a month.

My wife has a very stable job being a univeristy lecturer (civil servant) so i am not supporting her, we rather live together with our separate jobs.

Tomorrow is the day i'll be getting my first WP, and my school seems to insist that i must have a non-B, which they want to 'extend' (probably convert and extend but dont understand how) till the end of my contract, which is a three moth one, due to be renewed annualy from April 1st..

If i apply for a yearly extension of my non-O, and write on the reasons for applying:

Qualifying employment for a qualified employer

and present them with my three month contract, marriage certificate and the rest of it, am i covered in your opinion towards a yearly extension?

As you pointed out, i would hate to be 'dependant' of my school, especially since i dont plan to work for them forever.

Any information would be much appreciated

be well

costas

[Khun Bob]

Hi and thanks for all your replies. I have now grasped the difference between a visa and an entry permit !

The one related question i have left is whether there would be any problems in issuing a 1 year entry permit for employment where the person entered Thailand on a non imm o visa ? It seems from previous posts that this would not be a problem and it is suggested that if a company does make me change the type of visa then it is not a good company to work for !

Originally i was concerned that the visa would terminate at the same time as the work permit - i now know that this is not the case - thanks for that.

Look forward to any further replies...