How Many Trucks Does It Take To Fill A Rai Of Land?

[stevehaigh]

i'm interested in buying some rice paddy land. its about 1m below road level and currently flooded. a 10 wheel truck of fill dirt costs about 700 baht in the area. i'm looking at 6 rai of land so i know that's a lot of trucks, but how many?

does anyone know how many 10 wheel trucks of dirt it takes to raise 1rai of land by 1m? the land is in a flat area on a concrete road and is easily accessed.

p.s. i can do the math, i know that's 1600m3/rai of dirt, i just don't know how much you typically get in a 10 wheel truck.

thanks, steve

[teletiger]

To raise land by 1 metre you will have to fill it to 1.5 metres as it will settle over 2 years. A 10 wheeler usually carries about 10 m3 loose soil.

Regards.

[Somtham]

i'm interested in buying some rice paddy land. its about 1m below road level and currently flooded. a 10 wheel truck of fill dirt costs about 700 baht in the area. i'm looking at 6 rai of land so i know that's a lot of trucks, but how many?

does anyone know how many 10 wheel trucks of dirt it takes to raise 1rai of land by 1m? the land is in a flat area on a concrete road and is easily accessed.

p.s. i can do the math, i know that's 1600m3/rai of dirt, i just don't know how much you typically get in a 10 wheel truck.

thanks, steve

Steve - It may depend on the area you live in but I just bought 33 truck loads of top soil last week and I estimated they were 8 cubes per truck. I paid B800 per load.......the Thais paid B750 per load!! We're in Kamphaeng Phet.

rgds

[Foreverford]

i'm interested in buying some rice paddy land. its about 1m below road level and currently flooded. a 10 wheel truck of fill dirt costs about 700 baht in the area. i'm looking at 6 rai of land so i know that's a lot of trucks, but how many?

does anyone know how many 10 wheel trucks of dirt it takes to raise 1rai of land by 1m? the land is in a flat area on a concrete road and is easily accessed.

p.s. i can do the math, i know that's 1600m3/rai of dirt, i just don't know how much you typically get in a 10 wheel truck.

thanks, steve

Steve - It may depend on the area you live in but I just bought 33 truck loads of top soil last week and I estimated they were 8 cubes per truck. I paid B800 per load.......the Thais paid B750 per load!! We're in Kamphaeng Phet.

rgds

Did you ever figure what the weights were for your 33 truck loads? I assume it wasn't too wet

Thanks for any info from anyone. Anyone know max weight limits for 10 wheelers in Thailand??

[jandtaa]

Steve

Filled 2 rai of paddy land here in Chiang Rai over the last three months

would agree that its 10 cubic meters of soil per truck although they were referred to as "hok law" 6 wheelers

last year was quoted 250 baht per load and 3 years ago paid the same for a delivery on another project. This year it was down to 160 baht per load apparently down to falling diesel prices ??

I excavated a couple of ponds on site one for fish rearing and another more ornamental and kept the soil to raise the remaining land by an average height of 70 cm. Excavation was 18 baht per cubic meter for the 1st pond and it fell 2 months later to 16 baht for the second pond. It cost between 25 baht and 45 baht per truckload to have it dumped around site the latter cost for the furthest drop 90 meters from the excavation I thought this to be a little excessive but not as much as the tractor which charged 30 baht per truckload to level the soil ( for the first job 3090 baht for 2 hours work ).

first pond 1000 cubic meters = 103 truckloads hence the agreement with the previously quoted figure

felt over all I had good value and the guy I negotiated with Mr See (a local truck driver who arranged the jobs and acted as foreman) was a star spotting potential problems before I could mention them and making sure the job was done exactly as I wanted it !! The excavator driver was also first class and had no problems following the curved shape of the pond and variable depths.It might of helped that my wife's deceased husband was an excavator operator in Issan and she worked in the office so knew the drill as it were (bought books of raffle tickets to issue each driver with as they shifted their load so as to tally up at the end of the day) and the fact I have a good name in the village to work for if I don't do the job myself, work the rice harvest myself and let it be known I don't have any money !!

last week took delivery of 60 truckloads of real good quality topsoil "din dam" (like hens teeth round here as most excavations are from the paddy fields) to build a bio-intensive veggie patch and was pleasantly suprised there was no premium on it, 160 baht per load. Once again this was through Mr See who had been told to give us a bell if he was working a site other than paddy field.  

Hope this proves of some help although obviously it varies from region to region. I also guess the main cost is fuel so it will depend upon how far the soil has to be transported, some of the thinking behind digging the ponds. 

p.s. bought a copy of your book last year most helpful !! and after the coming wet season when the infill has settled ( don't know but reckoned on 20% settlement its pure clay and got the excavator to track it in as we went but can afford 50% settlement and still not worry about flooding ) will start building what happened to the website ? never got a chance to have a gander !! also in the process of trying to establish an "edible food forest" and small market garden using permaculture techniques, check out the forest garden thread as well as the organic farming pinned thread if you haven't already, loads of good info especially about improving soil fertiity which is gonna be a concern if you buy in infill !! (the aforementioned "din dam" came from an uncultivated site which had previously been an orchard and used to graze cattle where the owner was digging a pond. because of the manner in which they dig the ponds (they don't strip the topsoil first ) you could be buying subsoil from up to 4 meters below the surface, fine for building on but ain't gonna grow much, hence my use of permaculture methods !! . It took three days to take delivery of the 60 loads but worth the time spent on site !!

regards Jandtaa

Edited March 12, 2009 by jandtaa

[stevehaigh]

i figured 8-10cu/truck but i didn't realize about the settling, so adding 50% for that, i guess that's about 240-300 trucks/rai at 700B each that's 168-210,000B/rai. certainly puts the land price up a bit since i'm looking at 280,000b/rai just north of Cha-am.

thx for the info

PS. thanks Jandtaa about the nice words about my book. maybe in a few years i can write a farangs guide to farming in Thailand! i scraped the web site idea because there is more building info on TV and coolthaihouse forums.

steve

Edited March 12, 2009 by stevehaigh

[Foreverford]

To raise land by 1 metre you will have to fill it to 1.5 metres as it will settle over 2 years. A 10 wheeler usually carries about 10 m3 loose soil.

Regards.

To avoid this and know that you have the correct amount of soil for your project be extremely attentive to your hauling proceedures. If you have a good tractor driver and not too many trucks delivering, get a person to direct the dumping of the trucks and one to operate your tractor. Have the first load dumped near the entrance to your site then have the dozer (wheel tractor with a blade on the front) operator spread it out so it isn't more than 6" thick maximum. When the next dump comes have him dump just outside of where the last load was spread. the truck entering and leaving will compact the first load that is sppread in his entry path. Continue the process until you reach the boundary of your fill location (everything in a path somewhat the same size as the width of your dump truck (ideally) has been filled no more than 6" deep and has been compacted by the truck entering and leaving) and then continue with the first dump of a new section (on virgin soil) basically parallel to your compacted original fill. The first truck in this series of dumps dumps near the entry point of the site. The dozer spreads it out 6" thick and the next trucks continue dumping further in on the property compacting on top of the last loads dumped as they enter and leave the site. Obviously the last loads near the boundaries of your site won't get asw much compaction as the entry points but if you are able to access at two widely separated points, you can then have the trucks enter and dump at perpendicular directions to their previous dump directions (after you have created one entire lift of 6" on the entire site and you will then start to raise it another 6") allowing you to use them to compact along most of your boundary lines that didn't get much compaction previously.

It's a bit of an art but I've seen one man on a Cat motor grader (oh yeah he drives nothing but Ford Diesel Trucks for his personal vehicle) direct probably close to two dozen 18 wheel bottom dumps non-stop at a site and when he was done the site had climbed to the sky and the compaction was such that after a complete season of rain I wouldn't expect anything more than a few inches, at the very most, of contraction or shrinkage in any form of settling.

A good pre-plan, and probably more important than anything, is the building of a couple (or more) of excellent, gradually sloped haul road entrances onto your site. Choke Dee

[jandtaa]

i figured 8-10cu/truck but i didn't realize about the settling, so adding 50% for that, i guess that's about 240-300 trucks/rai at 700B each that's 168-210,000B/rai. certainly puts the land price up a bit since i'm looking at 280,000b/rai just north of Cha-am.

thx for the info

PS. thanks Jandtaa about the nice words about my book. maybe in a few years i can write a farangs guide to farming in Thailand! i scraped the web site idea because there is more building info on TV and coolthaihouse forums.

steve

I best start copyrighting my posts then !! lol  . Yeah not too sure on the settling the wife told me a figure of 50 % but I doubt it somehow and the area where I plan to put the house and the access road were given special treatment not dissimilar to FF's method ( good to see you back FF have you finished putting the world to rights yet ?? ) at the end of the day as long as your just above the bunds (10 cms maybe)I reckon you won't flood because of the way water is managed in the ricefields. The wife kept on insisting on a metre but when I asked if the water level ever rose above the bunds ( and I know from experience it doesn't or else no-one would be able to access their land in the rainy season without a canoe) she said of course not otherwise I couldn't take motorsike to check the rice. So 70 cm's became a compromise and this is the high point as I have graded the land very slightly in a couple of different directions to cope with surface water. If you can wait 6 months I'll let you know how it turns out (will also give me a headstart on the book!! only joking theres one out there already don't know whether it's much cop can't lay my hands on the link at the moment)

Edited March 12, 2009 by jandtaa

[teletiger]

You could always dig a pond on the land. Depending on size and depth could save you squillions.

Regards.

[Mosha]

Steve, let the other half do the negotiating.

[jandtaa]

Steve, let the other half do the negotiating.

have to disagree ! from experience I prefer to get involved from the start as then the contractor doesn't get a nasty suprise when a Farang pops up and the contractor feels he is the one being "ripped off" because if he'd known he would've quoted higher !! and then does a substandard job !!  A Thai neighbour was quoted over twice the price I payed for one of my ponds by the same contractor !! and ended up digging a shallow pond with his tractor !!

Edited March 12, 2009 by jandtaa

[soundman]

Standard 10 wheel dump truck is around 10-12m3 without going to overload.

To raise (tom din) one rai by 1m = 1600m3 x 1.2 (compaction factor) = 1920m3 / 12 = 160 truck loads @ (OP's price) 700B = 112,000.00B

Do not forget that you will have to pay extra for a tractor/bulldozer/grader to smooth and spread the dumped soil.

[jandtaa]

Standard 10 wheel dump truck is around 10-12m3 without going to overload.

To raise (tom din) one rai by 1m = 1600m3 x 1.2 (compaction factor) = 1920m3 / 12 = 160 truck loads @ (OP's price) 700B = 112,000.00B

Do not forget that you will have to pay extra for a tractor/bulldozer/grader to smooth and spread the dumped soil.

excellent info Soundman !! sorry maths is my weakpoint can you express the compaction factor as a simple percentage for me please most appreciated if you could. Will help me with my peace of mind and get me one up over the missus she still wants to buy in more soil for where the house will go although it will be on stilts and I will put in drainage before I start building, have read somewhere it is important to keep water away from the foundations in clay soil as it can cause movement although in the dry it is like concrete (can't remember the technical name for the phenomona). Any Idea if the perforated type pvc flexible land drain as used in the UK is available out here or am I gonna have to drill out some large bore rigid blue PVC pipe and lay if in french drains ?? sorry if this is slightly off topic and belongs in the building forum but I know from the OP's other posts he is looking to build a house on part of this land so maybe this is relevant ? any info most appreciated as it sounds you know what you're about from experience rather than the rest of us having to make educated (or not so) guesstimates !!

p.s. Steve it cost me 120,000 baht per rai to purchase the land originally and a further 60 odd thousand to dig the ponds infill the rest of the site, level and compact the spill and fence off the plot with a post and rail eucalyptus fence with a single top strand of barbed wire to keep the cattle out. guess it's cheap oop North !!

many thanks Jandtaa

Edited March 13, 2009 by jandtaa

[Maizefarmer]

Commercial building builders are constantly looking for places to dump hardcore from demolished building sites - you may like to give consideration to building up the fist 1/2 meter or so with hardcore - useful if the land is going to be built on: will help stabilise the base, improve drainage quite significantly and save money as these guys are usualy quite happy to delivery for free to get it off there hands.

[stevehaigh]

thanks again for the info. i do plan to build a house but that will only take up a small part of the 6 rai, the rest is for 'farming'!

i like the lake idea myself but the wife is against it for some reason.

would i need a retaining wall if i was only going up 1m? i figures a granule slope would suffice and grass or plant the slope so i don't loose soil. if i have to build a retaining wall, that will add a lot more to the project.

thx steve

[jandtaa]

Should be fine without a retaining wall seen plenty of sites round here with upto a meter raise and no wall. The truck drivers and tractor drivers are fairly good at putting in gradients if you explain before you start the job and use bamboo stakes to mark out for them.I guess with 6 rai of land you could put in much gentler gradients than the usual 1:1 that seems to be standard round here. Obviously planting up will help prevent soil erosion maybe you could try vetivier grass there's some info here; jandtaas farming docs - vetivier manual 

 Do you feel you really need a meter of topsoil to grow crops unless they're particularly deep rooted,what crops are you looking at ?? (i'm creating some no till raised beds with the quality topsoil I bought in, will create a little extra depth and saves on material as I don't want to waste precious topsoilwhere the paths are going in the intensive veggie growing area.). for trees you could dig deeper planting holes and fill with a mixture of soil and compost.Or then again because of the area of the land you could think about terracing giving you areas of deeper soil where you need it (say an orchard area).Reckon you have to win over the missus on this one and stick in a pond (irrigation water,raise a few fish and good for the soul, nothing like setting up the BBQ at the waters edge,grilling some of your own fish whilst downing a few cold ones after a hard days graft on the farm!!) Just some thoughts.

cheers jandtaa 

[stevehaigh]

 Do you feel you really need a meter of topsoil to grow crops unless they're particularly deep rooted,what crops are you looking at ?? (i'm creating some no till raised beds with the quality topsoil I bought in, will create a little extra depth and saves on material as I don't want to waste precious topsoilwhere the paths are going in the intensive veggie growing area.). for trees you could dig deeper planting holes and fill with a mixture of soil and compost.Or then again because of the area of the land you could think about terracing giving you areas of deeper soil where you need it (say an orchard area).Reckon you have to win over the missus on this one and stick in a pond (irrigation water,raise a few fish and good for the soul, nothing like setting up the BBQ at the waters edge,grilling some of your own fish whilst downing a few cold ones after a hard days graft on the farm!!) Just some thoughts.

cheers jandtaa 

you read my mind actually. i was just thinking, for the house, just build something on stilts and that way i'd have a nice big cool area under the house for car park, storage, starting seedlings, etc.

for planting, i'd use raised beds since i'm looking at market gardening anyhow and will grow under shade cover. for the trees, use the big diameter porous concrete sewer pipes as planters and fill with good quality soil to plant avacado, orange, olive? etc in there.

i'm not sure what the deal is about flooding on that land. in the dry season, the farmers obviously flood the rice land from the irrigation canals. in the rainy season, i suspect it just floods with rain which would be a problem of course. however the land is just north of Cha-am/Hua hin which is the driest part of the country so only really a problem for 2 months. maybe i'd have to pump it out like the dutch. i'd need a raised driveway for the car or course but maybe that's all i need, and that could be demolished building waste.

lots to think about.

Edited March 14, 2009 by stevehaigh

[jandtaa]

Slightly out of the box I know but how about digging a moat around the area you want to remain water free in the wet season,using the spill from the excavation to raise the level slightly of the land within the moat and grade the land so that rainfall drains into the moat. this would give you plenty of water storage for irrigation close to all of the crops and would negate the need to convince the missus of the need for a pond  !! Obviously depends on the shape of the parcel of land but if it is squarish (what I mean is wide enough if you get my drift) stick your house in the centre (create your permaculture zone 1 around the house) an access road onto the land and over the moat and leave the outlying areas as paddy to grow a small amount of rice.Could look quite stunning.Unfortunately my plot of land is too narrow and I was unable to use this idea.

chok dee na Jandtaa

 

[stevehaigh]

Slightly out of the box I know but how about digging a moat around the area you want to remain water free in the wet season,using the spill from the excavation to raise the level slightly of the land within the moat and grade the land so that rainfall drains into the moat. this would give you plenty of water storage for irrigation close to all of the crops and would negate the need to convince the missus of the need for a pond  !! Obviously depends on the shape of the parcel of land but if it is squarish (what I mean is wide enough if you get my drift) stick your house in the centre (create your permaculture zone 1 around the house) an access road onto the land and over the moat and leave the outlying areas as paddy to grow a small amount of rice.Could look quite stunning.Unfortunately my plot of land is too narrow and I was unable to use this idea.

chok dee na Jandtaa

 

its a bit of thermometer shape and the narrow bit at the end is the road frontage, about 30m wide. the moat idea is pretty cool, could even have remote control speedboat races around it and like you said, great for water storage.

and i could build a draw bridge over the moat and fill it the water with jaawrakhaeh, the perfect security system. i'd build the house like a castle and even rent a few damsels in distress from the local bars when the wife's away.

i love it when a plan comes together.

[allcladrad]

Speaking from a limited experience, I have 6 rai of former rice paddy, I would suggest that you drive piles for the house, it is cheaper and a lot more stable than fill. I used dirt from ponds to fill the lower areas in the land, my area is all sandy clay.

The earth was not much good for anything, planting, walking or driving over. 6" of top soil will work in all areas where you intend to walk and none where you intend to drive. Road base requires a different fill than the rest of the property.

Have a goal based plan and plan, plan, plan. Lay it out on paper and walk the site and transfer the paper plan onto the ground. be sure to add water, electricity and all paths and drives, and if you decide to put in a pond, a for sure good idea, keep it cross ways to the watershed and as low to ground level as possible.

[stevehaigh]

Speaking from a limited experience, I have 6 rai of former rice paddy, I would suggest that you drive piles for the house, it is cheaper and a lot more stable than fill. I used dirt from ponds to fill the lower areas in the land, my area is all sandy clay.

this is more a question for the building forum but since it came up. i've seen piles driven in for commercial buildings but never for a house. do you know anything about it? are there pile driver companies that provide the piles and the pile driver/hammer rig thing? what is the pile made of? i assume pre stressed, reinforced concrete right.

how would piles be better than digging holes and casting a footings on site?

thx steve

[teletiger]

Don't forget the watchtowers with the automatic m50's ....to keep the family away. Coolhousethai....good place to start. Plenty of people on there have built on paddy-land. Our own DIY forum too. Don't rush it. Relax and find the best plan.

Good luck.

Regards.

[RedBullHorn]

Speaking from a limited experience, I have 6 rai of former rice paddy, I would suggest that you drive piles for the house, it is cheaper and a lot more stable than fill. I used dirt from ponds to fill the lower areas in the land, my area is all sandy clay.

this is more a question for the building forum but since it came up. i've seen piles driven in for commercial buildings but never for a house. do you know anything about it? are there pile driver companies that provide the piles and the pile driver/hammer rig thing? what is the pile made of? i assume pre stressed, reinforced concrete right.

how would piles be better than digging holes and casting a footings on site?

thx steve

12 year ago, my house was piles driven immediately after soil were compact by road roller(wall fence with retainer were build before soil dump)...Then a crane came and laid concrete slabs 1.5m above soil level for house flooring, basically the so-call basement(with excess) is the entire house size, i could see all my house pvc pipe so fixing is a breeze if there's a serious plumbing problem.

I was told then that my house was the first of its type to be piles driven and with toilet build in the master bedroom(6m x 6m)and the kitchen next to the living room with window counter by the contractor, said no one he knows had ever done this in Chiang Rai then (common for me back in Singapore). He later use my house as a show house to potential clients

Edited March 15, 2009 by RedBullHorn