My Catfish Farm Operation

[Dancealot]

Never a shortage of helpers as the deal is, market size fish go into the holding net and the helpers keep the small koong , snakeheads etc.

Can you treat us with a picture, ozzydom?

1 rai ponds. Make calculations more sbaai

[ray23]

The local price for Pla Duk is 50 baht and that's retail, the highest percentage of protein I can get is 25%, not what is recommended. the cost is 470 baht a bag. Under those conditions I was darn lucky to come out with 50 baht profit. That was the brother in law standing chin deep in the water digging the critters out of the mud, until we could pump the pond. Then he stood halfway knee deep in mud to get the rest of them. You might stand a chance of making a profit if you could at least raise them to a 1/2 kilo. But the local Thai's which is my market don't want them that big about 1/4 a kilo is what they want or smaller. Seems nuts to me, but it is what it is.

Pla Nin 70 baht a kilo. You can supplement the food with algae and vegetation such as grass.

So unless I can give Pla Mor a try. I will convert the small pond to nursery type pond. Pla Nin are easy to catch with a net/ Mush easier to maintain the small pond till the large one is needed. That will give me an opportunity treat the big pond and wait on some rain, or pump from the other ponds in the area.

This has been an invaluable thread, in that it has confirmed to my worse fears after two expensive try's .

You know sometimes you just have to adapt to the conditions you have.

Dom how did the shrimp experiment work out for you?

Must be close to time for them to be available again.

[RedBullHorn]

The local price for Pla Duk is 50 baht and that's retail, the highest percentage of protein I can get is 25%, not what is recommended. the cost is 470 baht a bag. Under those conditions I was darn lucky to come out with 50 baht profit. That was the brother in law standing chin deep in the water digging the critters out of the mud, until we could pump the pond. Then he stood halfway knee deep in mud to get the rest of them. You might stand a chance of making a profit if you could at least raise them to a 1/2 kilo. But the local Thai's which is my market don't want them that big about 1/4 a kilo is what they want or smaller. Seems nuts to me, but it is what it is.

Pla Nin 70 baht a kilo. You can supplement the food with algae and vegetation such as grass.

So unless I can give Pla Mor a try. I will convert the small pond to nursery type pond. Pla Nin are easy to catch with a net/ Mush easier to maintain the small pond till the large one is needed. That will give me an opportunity treat the big pond and wait on some rain, or pump from the other ponds in the area.

This has been an invaluable thread, in that it has confirmed to my worse fears after two expensive try's .

You know sometimes you just have to adapt to the conditions you have.

Dom how did the shrimp experiment work out for you?

Must be close to time for them to be available again.

How to get your targeted harvest yield and your customer still get their 1/4 kg size ? The trick is "Maximizing". You will still make a sizable profit even with that sizes. I will tell you next time, when the time is right.

I'm reputable in my circle for being able to give them their desirable sizes and still make money out of it. Small size doesn't necessary mean you will not make good profit. You want size 2,3,4 fishes/kg, no problem. 5,6,7,8 fishes/kg, also no problem. Just tell me what you want...

[ray23]

Happy for you and enjoy your posts.

[tingtong]

Ray,

how much you pay for your catfish fingerlings?

i know that for the feed you pay way too much, even in comparison to my cost...

i know that RBH has an edge there too, he mentioned in previous posts his costs there.

for me, the cheapest sourcing i found was 80satang/fingerlings.

way more than his costs

but what i was wondering, do you pay 1thb, or maybe 1.5thb/fingerling is you only buy 200-500....

in the end, when time to sell, the buyers preference is KING! just think when you are on the buyer side...if you like 7-8 fish, great, BUT

and BIG BUT, vs. the 3-4 fish/kg ( what i found to be the ideal size for both seller and buyer) where your base fingerling cost is 3-4x1 thb= 3-4thb...to 7x1thb= 7thb.../kg fish sold...

to a worst scenario when you pay for your limited number of fingerlings 3-4x1.5= 4.5-6thb ..to 7-8x1.5=10.5-12thb...

sorry for making it long, but what to show things real clear...

so your better case price is 3-4thb fingerlings/1kg fish sold...VS. 10.5-12thb fingerlings/1 kg fish sold!!!

that is an extra cost of 6.5- 8thb COST, a cost that if you want to please the locals somehow you have to recap!! and no, they wont pay for the 1kg fish extra money...

on the other hand, see RHB's operation, he buys probably 0.6thb/fingerlings ( and might even delay payment till harvest!!) and achieve a consistent avarage of 4 fish/kg about...you can do the math from his previous posts...

his fingerlings costs were only 2.4thb!!

that is a huge edge in the beginning, as his buyer also buys the avarage 4 fish/kg, and wont shy out like the villagers when you tell them that you dont sell 7-8 fish for the same price due your costs...

of course the villagers doesnt have a contract with you, but RBH has his

the details are in the lines, just need to read.

as i said, should i have the connections to sell like RBH does, ( maybe on a lucky day he helps out with a Khon Kaen or Chaiyaphum contact?) you can actually succeed...in a small scale you might make also a few bath, as we did cage rasing 500-1000...but in the mid-way it is tough to make anything, if you try both grow and retail sell, with median prices...part as the fish wont go fast enough for quantity...

huh, a long post, sorry again, but i think for some it might be interesting...i hope.

[ray23]

Cat Fish one baht 400 or 1,000 the real cost is food.

I have searched out all the avenues available to me here in Udon. Best price I can find. Things seem to be very different here. none of the fish supply shops had EM or molasses, Had Dom not mentioned Global I would not have found EM.

I picked up 1,000 Pla Mor today hopefully I will have enough of a margin in those to pick up a few baht, We do OK on Pla Nin at 70 baht.

But, Cat Fish I think I'm done

[tingtong]

compare to you (Udon) i am in the middle of nowhere...

but last time noticed that the regular feed shop also carries EM...

should you tell you want, tomorrow i am to make the trip to Udon, could bring some there

[RedBullHorn]

Ray,

how much you pay for your catfish fingerlings?

i know that for the feed you pay way too much, even in comparison to my cost...

i know that RBH has an edge there too, he mentioned in previous posts his costs there.

for me, the cheapest sourcing i found was 80satang/fingerlings.

way more than his costs

but what i was wondering, do you pay 1thb, or maybe 1.5thb/fingerling is you only buy 200-500....

in the end, when time to sell, the buyers preference is KING! just think when you are on the buyer side...if you like 7-8 fish, great, BUT

and BIG BUT, vs. the 3-4 fish/kg ( what i found to be the ideal size for both seller and buyer) where your base fingerling cost is 3-4x1 thb= 3-4thb...to 7x1thb= 7thb.../kg fish sold...

to a worst scenario when you pay for your limited number of fingerlings 3-4x1.5= 4.5-6thb ..to 7-8x1.5=10.5-12thb...

sorry for making it long, but what to show things real clear...

so your better case price is 3-4thb fingerlings/1kg fish sold...VS. 10.5-12thb fingerlings/1 kg fish sold!!!

that is an extra cost of 6.5- 8thb COST, a cost that if you want to please the locals somehow you have to recap!! and no, they wont pay for the 1kg fish extra money...

on the other hand, see RHB's operation, he buys probably 0.6thb/fingerlings ( and might even delay payment till harvest!!) and achieve a consistent avarage of 4 fish/kg about...you can do the math from his previous posts...

his fingerlings costs were only 2.4thb!!

that is a huge edge in the beginning, as his buyer also buys the avarage 4 fish/kg, and wont shy out like the villagers when you tell them that you dont sell 7-8 fish for the same price due your costs...

of course the villagers doesnt have a contract with you, but RBH has his

the details are in the lines, just need to read.

as i said, should i have the connections to sell like RBH does, ( maybe on a lucky day he helps out with a Khon Kaen or Chaiyaphum contact?) you can actually succeed...in a small scale you might make also a few bath, as we did cage rasing 500-1000...but in the mid-way it is tough to make anything, if you try both grow and retail sell, with median prices...part as the fish wont go fast enough for quantity...

huh, a long post, sorry again, but i think for some it might be interesting...i hope.

Cat Fish one baht 400 or 1,000 the real cost is food.

I have searched out all the avenues available to me here in Udon. Best price I can find. Things seem to be very different here. none of the fish supply shops had EM or molasses, Had Dom not mentioned Global I would not have found EM.

I picked up 1,000 Pla Mor today hopefully I will have enough of a margin in those to pick up a few baht, We do OK on Pla Nin at 70 baht.

But, Cat Fish I think I'm done

ray23, in this business, cost management is essential. In another word... knowing how to do the maths.

Let me show you.

Yes, 90% of my cost in the commercial pellet feed. 10% is my fingerlings cost...right ?

"Let's say" my fingerlings cost ฿0.50/fingerling, i rear 100'000 fishes = ฿50'000.-

My feeds are 1'100 sacks for 100'000 fishes. So do the maths will be ฿50'000 / 1'100 sacks = ฿45.454/sack of feed. 1 sack is 20kg in weight, so i will divide further...฿45.454 / 20kg = ฿2.272 PER KILO !!! (Cost of fingerlings/kg and YES to tingtong your workout is about right on the ฿2.4/kg. )

My LOWEST FCR is 1.25:1 (16kg out of a 20kg sack of feed) and for 1'100 sack of feed average per sack is ฿558.727.- Further divided by 16kg = ฿34.920 Then i plus my cost of fingerlings per kg of ฿2.272 = ฿37.192

"Let's say" i got farmgate price of ฿46/kg.

฿46 - ฿37.19 = ฿8.81 PER KILO Gross Profit. (NOT Net profit yet !)

ray23...Now do you see the importance in the saving made on fingerlings !?!!

Here comes the truck..."Look Pla Phan Pla !..... ฿1/fingerling !", is only for own consumption, not for business platform......

Edited August 2, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[RedBullHorn]

Continue.....

You lost ฿2/kg if it is 4 fishes/kg and ฿3/kg if it is 6 fishes/kg.

Still thinking hard ? Ok~ Now multiply ฿2/kg by 17'600kg... You have just short ฿35'200 in potential profit.

Edited August 2, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[tingtong]

...it wasnt for a moment a question that feed price is the single biggest cost, was the fingerling example to point out how much you can use on the outset straight, especially if the retail price under pressure at 50thb as Ray mentioned...

similar goes to feed, 470thb/sack for 25% protein feed is just way too much to make it worthwile really.

Ray i wish you luck with Pla mor, and sincerely hope you will have a market for it...as oppesed having fish what no one will be willing to give the so called "market price" for.

[RedBullHorn]

At that price for 25% protein level and i don't even know what brand and what feed grade. The feed trader had already made the profit that was suppose to be yours...before you even harvest. Let alone the fingerlings seller whom you already lost your edge to from the begining.

Edited August 2, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[David48]

New arrival for 2nd season, this is the 1st batch - 100'000 fingerlings. Planned harvest on 20th of October.

2nd batch of 120'000 is schduled to arrive in the next 20 days.

RBH ... always like watching/experiencing your operation.

Thanks for sharing ...

.

[ray23]

Thanks for the offer, on the EM. Thanks to Aussie Dom I found it at Global.

I understand your thought RBH, yes the cost of fingerlings is important. Food I keep looking for better price haven't found one yet. The only time I got a break was when my Thai Brother in Law bought a bag for me. Saved about 50 Baht a bag that way.

But, even that won't turn the corner for me. Maybe the increases in sales cost for Pla Mor might do the trick. But, I had to pay two baht each for those. You can only get them on a special order here.

The wife wants to fill in the ponds and add more mushrooms, she just may be right. Time will tell.

[RedBullHorn]

Have you found your market for your Pla Mor ? How do you plan to sell it when the time comes ?

Edited August 3, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ray23]

Have you found your market for your Pla Mor ? How do you plan to sell it when the time comes ?

Yes I will sale the same way I do everything else, retail locally. I won't do a bulk sale as you do. If there is something around Udon like that I've never found it.

[ozzydom]

Have you found your market for your Pla Mor ? How do you plan to sell it when the time comes ?

Yes I will sale the same way I do everything else, retail locally. I won't do a bulk sale as you do. If there is something around Udon like that I've never found it.

Ray, I hope your Pla Mor grow bigger than mine.Two years old and measure 5 inchs weigh about 175 grams. Even the ones CP sell packaged are only 4 fish =500grams.

[RedBullHorn]

Have you found your market for your Pla Mor ? How do you plan to sell it when the time comes ?

Yes I will sale the same way I do everything else, retail locally. I won't do a bulk sale as you do. If there is something around Udon like that I've never found it.

Ray, I hope your Pla Mor grow bigger than mine.Two years old and measure 5 inchs weigh about 175 grams. Even the ones CP sell packaged are only 4 fish =500grams.

Good luck ray23 ~~~

Edited August 4, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ray23]

Thanks guys the fry were really small. if it pays off I will do it again. If not I will stick to Pla Nin.

Educations are expensive. no doubt about it. The kicker is they to need 30% protein food. which I really can't get here, without paying 1100 baht a bag So I have to make do with 25% protein and whatever other source I can find for additional protein..

I have 2 holding tanks now. I will keep about 20 in the larger tank to monitor growth.

I have set up a seperate spread sheet for them. So I should know within a year.

I have been told by the locals that I can get 100 baht a kilo, which may be true. But, Thai's never look at costs only the sales. As an example they want me to stock Pla Duk again. never mind that I lost my shirt on two tries. Won't go there again food is just to expensive for a small pond like mine.

I have also decided to gibe up on the floating nets. So far I have no success with keeping them in. I pulled three this weekend and found small fry and about five larger fish. The fine mesh used in that clogs up to easily. The fish eat holes in the sides and escape into the larger pond. So next time I will grow the fry in the larger holding tank and them put them in pond.

I know they are breeding in the big pond, so when I pump it I should have some additonal protein for the Pla Mor

I will keep everyone up to date on how it goes.

Edited August 5, 2013 by ray23

[ozzydom]

Ray,are you starting your Pla Mor on 40% frog food , from there you progress to the smallest catfish pellets @ 32% protein

I dont know where you are being quoted 1100 baht a bag but small 32% catfish pellets are only about 500 baht bag.

By floating nets I presume you are referring to hapas suspended on poles,?these need suspended air stones in each ,as the mesh is to fine to allow water exchange. Ideally they should be cleaned at least weekly.,

I doubt that fish eat the mesh., the probable culprit is rats.

[ray23]

Good information, now if I can find frog food.

No the nets were framed in PVC to include the bottom sections with the net put on the frame four corner floats suspended them free in the water. Never thought about that rats, We did have a problem with birds stopping by for lunch. So additional netting was added to the top to prevent that. Actually a pretty good sit up.

Two things were noticeable one the PVC glue did not hold up well in the water. Hence the frames coming apart, at the joints. When we pull them we find holes in what would below the water line. I had 0-2 going to each net indepenetly,

The idea was to grow some fry separate from he other fish in the pond, There by having a head start on the next fish crop.

But I now have the above ground holding tanks and I can do the same thing in them in small numbers

I can find the smaller cat fish pellets I'm sure of. Thanks Dom I hadn't thought of that.

You know come to think of I haven't seen frogs for sale here.

[ozzydom]

Good information, now if I can find frog food.

No the nets were framed in PVC to include the bottom sections with the net put on the frame four corner floats suspended them free in the water. Never thought about that rats, We did have a problem with birds stopping by for lunch. So additional netting was added to the top to prevent that. Actually a pretty good sit up.

Two things were noticeable one the PVC glue did not hold up well in the water. Hence the frames coming apart, at the joints. When we pull them we find holes in what would below the water line. I had 0-2 going to each net indepenetly,

The idea was to grow some fry separate from he other fish in the pond, There by having a head start on the next fish crop.

But I now have the above ground holding tanks and I can do the same thing in them in small numbers

I can find the smaller cat fish pellets I'm sure of. Thanks Dom I hadn't thought of that.

You know come to think of I haven't seen frogs for sale here.

Lots of the fish food stockists will have frog food, it will be a while before your fry will be big enough for even the smallest catfish pellets.

Frog food is about the size of the hundreds and thousands you sprinkle on cakes,icecream etc.

The fisheries dept has frog setups, it may be worth a look for you, probably more lucrative on a small holding than fish, they sell the tadpoles as well as grown frogs in the markets.

Edited August 5, 2013 by ozzydom

[RedBullHorn]

Tell feed stockist you want frog feed, high protein level and compare the prices of 35%, 38% and 40%.

The pellet size is that of a sesame seed, Thai generally call it " Ahan krob size mit nga "

[tingtong]

how long one expect these Pla Mor to get up to market size?

[ray23]

That is the size I'm feeding now. although I don't l know if it is frog food. It appears they are consuming it.

Thanks for the Thai word I can probably find it with that.

[ozzydom]

how long one expect these Pla Mor to get up to market size?

That depends on the definition of "market size".The maximum size of the few in my ponds is about 5 inches which dependant on who you quote can in some strains be the maximum size they grow to.

The Thailand Freshwater Fishes Chart quotes max size 7-23 cm which is a big variation.

Vietnam Fisheries quotes a market size of less than 30grams in 100 days fed on 30% protein with a FCR of 4.5:1

[ray23]

If the local Thai's treat view them the same as Cat Fish they won't be very big. I've been told a 100 days by the locals. The question in my mind is how much will I spend getting them there. And if they will provide a better profit then Cat Fish. Guess I will l know in three months or so.

I don't mind the time with Pla Nin as you don't have to feed as much, since ti is easy to supplement their diet. I sold everything I didn't kill last year. There is a learning curve hopefully I will have learned a bit more this last year.

I will follow up on the frog food tomorrow.

[tingtong]

Dom,

if that 4.5 FCR is correct, then it is a funny proposal to make any money on this Pla Mor...

Ray quoted about 500thb/20kg catfish feed...ie. 25thb/kg

4.5x25= 112.5thb...on feed, that excluding the fingerlings....

are you sure about that 4.5 FCR?

[RedBullHorn]

My thought exactly...

Edited August 5, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ozzydom]

Dom,

if that 4.5 FCR is correct, then it is a funny proposal to make any money on this Pla Mor...

Ray quoted about 500thb/20kg catfish feed...ie. 25thb/kg

4.5x25= 112.5thb...on feed, that excluding the fingerlings....

are you sure about that 4.5 FCR?

tt, Those figures were from a study from the Mekong Delta Fisheries Institute,the worst FCR was actually 8.0:1.

Another study from the Bangladesh Farming Institute shows different figures ie.

50,000 fish in a 1 hectare pond

grown for 150 days

fed 30% protein pellet at rate of 14% of biomass initially reducing to 4%

Harvest 4,800kg @ average weight 96 grams

FCR1.63

As these are Bangladesh figures,local cost of fry, food;labour selling prices would need to be ascertained to come up with a FCR under local conditions.

10 fish to the kilo would be a concern with regard marketing

[ray23]

Actually it was anywhere to six to eight fish per Kilo with Cat fish at the size they want. That was a major reason I couldn't make money on Catfish. Couldn't get to a size to cover the feed cost. My guess is this won't be any different. But, makes for an interesting experiment.

Based on all the calculations the potential is the for 10,000 baht gross. But we all know things will go wrong, so lets cut that by 20% and say it's 8,000. If my feed for costs me more then that and I think it will. It will be a loss. Then back to Pla Nin, So one more course in WBU ( Water Buffalo University )

Remember guys the fish are a hobby.

The mushrooms make money if taken care of properly.