2009 Formula One Season

[rixalex]

Just been looking at some F1 drivers' stats. The one that most easily allows equal and fair comparison is the percentage of points scored from the maximum available. Here's how they rank:

Joint 1st) Fangio - 54%

Joint 1st) Schumi - 54%

2nd) Lewis - 50%

3rd) Prost - 43%

4th) Alonso - 41%

5th) Senna - 40%

6th) Kimi - 37%

Joint 7th) - Mansell - 27%

Joint 7th) Vettel - 27%

Joint 7th) Massa - 27%

8th) Lauda - 26%

Joint 9th) Piquet Snr - 25%

Joint 9th) Hakkinen - 25%

10th) Kovi - 21%

11th) Rubens - 20%

12th) Button - 18%

I think the most impressive statistic in there is Vettels. To be that high up in the cars he has driven is remarkable. Closely followed by Lewis. His first three years in the sport he has i believe scored more points than anyone else in their first three years - he's also broken plenty of other records like most number of podiums and most wins. Of course he has benefitted from having a good car a lot of the time, but as they say when a good football team beats a poor one, you can only beat what is in front of you.

[MJo]

It is all about the cars you drive so not really telling nything of the actual capability for the drivers. More about how you have managed your career and how good teams you have been driving. To compare with football bit the same if you judge individual player based on how many points his team has got per season.

There is two kind of drivers in the list. Those who started their career in the smaller teams or driving non-winning cars for several years before getting a seat at the top and then the guys who landed a seat for top or good team right away.

And then there is schumi who drove years and years the best cars around and won everything.

Now for the never ending quest to find a "new schumi" i do agree Lewis and Vettel are the only options at the moment. Rest are older and can never achieve the same having already driven several seasons without winning. If you look the same after 10 to 15 years and Lewis and Vettel are par with Schumi then it is fair and equal comparison between them providing both stay with winning teams.

Edit: I guess what i'm trying to say is that F1 is a team sport so there is really no way to compare drivers against each other over period of time.

Edited October 22, 2009 by MJo

[rixalex]

It is all about the cars you drive so not really telling nything of the actual capability for the drivers.

Even the good cars don't drive themselves. They need a good driver.

Going by your theory every driver who has won whilst driving the best car should receive no recognition. So the vast majority of titles that Schumacher won say nothing about him as a driver?! What nonsense.

[MJo]

Even the good cars don't drive themselves. They need a good driver.

Going by your theory every driver who has won whilst driving the best car should receive no recognition. So the vast majority of titles that Schumacher won say nothing about him as a driver?! What nonsense.

No, that's not what i'm saying and as my english is not perfect it should still be understandable.

Your list shows what the drivers have achieved, however it does not show any comparison between the drivers in regards who is the best or fastest as you imply in your post.

Sure i recognise that Schumi was a great driver and achieved a lot. Perhaps more that anyone will ever do and it says lot of him as driver.

But it's just snapshot of how many points in average the guys have scored per season and and it has lot to do being in right car at right time.

Take Lewis, we all agree he's exceptionally good driver. What if he had been placed with Force India by McLaren for the first two seasons or for his rookie season to learn the tracks and the car set-up etc? He would not be that high in the list so based on your theory he would not be a good driver ?

Now before you dismiss this again i just say that being a good driver is not enough nowdays to automaticly land a seat in top team. There is many striking fast young guys out there that never get the chance to prove themselves in F1 purely do the fact that they do not have the financial means or sufficient back up team working for them to get them in. Lewis was trained by McLaren - Mercedes since a kid, same with Alonso and Renault. Kimi was in these junior teams as well before picked up by Peter Sauber. There was also other potential drivers at the time so what if they had picked someone else or what if they had not managed to get in the junior programs? No one would have ever heard of these guys outside karting. Big part of it is being in right place at right time. You get that right and are as fast as the others and there you go. Future Schumi has born.

[rixalex]

No, that's not what i'm saying and as my english is not perfect it should still be understandable.

I'm afraid it's not - to me anyway. I really don't know what point you are trying to make. It seems like you are trying to suggest that in actual fact drivers' success comes down to being in the right place at the right time, rather than down to skill. Right place, right time is of course of great importance, but without the skill and talent it would mean nothing.

Your list shows what the drivers have achieved, however it does not show any comparison between the drivers in regards who is the best or fastest as you imply in your post.

The list is an accurate indication of success. If you don't think that success is an indicator of who is the best and who is the fastest, then that's up to you. I don't agree. And i don't think the rest of the world does. Everyone knows Schumacher to be one of the best and the fastest because he won stuff. That's what sportspeople have to do to be considered good or great. Otherwise you are just talking about unfulfilled potential. Maybe that's not fair. Maybe whilst Schumi was winning all those titles there was a better driver who was driving at the back of the field in a complete dog. Doesn't matter. You don't win stuff history forgets you very quickly.

[wackysleet]

Just been looking at some F1 drivers' stats. The one that most easily allows equal and fair comparison is the percentage of points scored from the maximum available. Here's how they rank:

Joint 1st) Fangio - 54%

Joint 1st) Schumi - 54%

2nd) Lewis - 50%

3rd) Prost - 43%

4th) Alonso - 41%

5th) Senna - 40%

6th) Kimi - 37%

Joint 7th) - Mansell - 27%

Joint 7th) Vettel - 27%

Joint 7th) Massa - 27%

8th) Lauda - 26%

Joint 9th) Piquet Snr - 25%

Joint 9th) Hakkinen - 25%

10th) Kovi - 21%

11th) Rubens - 20%

12th) Button - 18%

I think the most impressive statistic in there is Vettels. To be that high up in the cars he has driven is remarkable. Closely followed by Lewis. His first three years in the sport he has i believe scored more points than anyone else in their first three years - he's also broken plenty of other records like most number of podiums and most wins. Of course he has benefitted from having a good car a lot of the time, but as they say when a good football team beats a poor one, you can only beat what is in front of you.

rixalex. I promise not to mention Vettels performance in your table.

I do think statistics can proove a number of things although I'm not sure that Fangios figures are really as relevant as Shumachers for a very simple reason, unless you have taken into account that in Fangios days as a racer, and you were the number 1 driver, if your car broke down during the race then you could demand the number 2s car and continue, with any points being scored shared equally with the number 2 driver and Fangio certainly did this on several occassions ending up in the points, of course in todays races if you break down your out altogether.

[rixalex]

rixalex. I promise not to mention Vettels performance in your table.

No need to mate as i had already made a point of saying how impressive Vettels percentage figure is, when you consider the car he has been driving.

I do think statistics can proove a number of things although I'm not sure that Fangios figures are really as relevant as Shumachers for a very simple reason, unless you have taken into account that in Fangios days as a racer, and you were the number 1 driver, if your car broke down during the race then you could demand the number 2s car and continue, with any points being scored shared equally with the number 2 driver and Fangio certainly did this on several occassions ending up in the points, of course in todays races if you break down your out altogether.

Wacky, you've already done a successful job of tainting Senna's legacy in my eyes, please don't start on Fangio!

Of course in Fangio's days many things were different. The scoring system, the number of races in a season etc. It was a completely different era, so comparison is going to be even more difficult than comparison of modern day drivers. Still, that said, Fangio was racing in a time when the number of fatalities every year was high and safety was not given much consideration. For that reason, i think the man deserves all his accolades. He literally put his neck on the time every time he got in the car. That takes some balls and i think makes up for some advantages he may have benefitted from, like being able to hop into the number 2 car.

[wackysleet]

rixalex. I promise not to mention Vettels performance in your table.

No need to mate as i had already made a point of saying how impressive Vettels percentage figure is, when you consider the car he has been driving.

I do think statistics can proove a number of things although I'm not sure that Fangios figures are really as relevant as Shumachers for a very simple reason, unless you have taken into account that in Fangios days as a racer, and you were the number 1 driver, if your car broke down during the race then you could demand the number 2s car and continue, with any points being scored shared equally with the number 2 driver and Fangio certainly did this on several occassions ending up in the points, of course in todays races if you break down your out altogether.

Wacky, you've already done a successful job of tainting Senna's legacy in my eyes, please don't start on Fangio!

Of course in Fangio's days many things were different. The scoring system, the number of races in a season etc. It was a completely different era, so comparison is going to be even more difficult than comparison of modern day drivers. Still, that said, Fangio was racing in a time when the number of fatalities every year was high and safety was not given much consideration. For that reason, i think the man deserves all his accolades. He literally put his neck on the time every time he got in the car. That takes some balls and i think makes up for some advantages he may have benefitted from, like being able to hop into the number 2 car.

Sorry about Senna.

I agree that things were very different and I'm certainly not downgrading or denigrating Fangio in anyway, believing that the cars of the fifties, which let us not forget were still very fast, and controlling a F1 car on skinny tyres required a great amount of skill, and bearing in mind all of the driving aids that go with the modern car they must have been a real bloody handfull especially in the wet.

If I wore a hat then I would certainly take it off as a tribute to the skills of the early racers, to my mind having been privileged to attend as a boy some of these races at home and abroad is what started my passion for the sport, when to my mind it was still a sport and less of a race about tactics and egos but thats just my take on it.

[MJo]

Right place, right time is of course of great importance, but without the skill and talent it would mean nothing.

That is exactly my point and i agree, right place right time and with the necessary talent sand skill. That's how you succeed and win championships. But if one of them is missing it won't happen, you need both.

The list is an accurate indication of success. If you don't think that success is an indicator of who is the best and who is the fastest, then that's up to you. I don't agree.

I also agree the list is accurate what comes to comparing success. Who is the fastest in absolute speed i don't agree, for me the performance of the cars you have driven over the years influence on the ranking here. Who is the best is matter of opinion, some say this season it was Vettel, some say it was Lewis and some Button. Maybe even some dare to say it was Kimi

In modern day F1 there is no other indication how fast you are except comparing with your team mate. And even then it is difficult to filter out technical issues and other things that are not in drivers control. Unless you happen to be one of the race engineers at the pit. For absolute speed you could take a look on all time fastest race laps and the list is different. But same there, it depends how long you have been driving and for what teams.

But that's the whole point of F1 for me, there is no absolute data or ranking based on indisputable facts for who's fastest or who's the best. It is left for the fans to form their own opinion and that is major part of the attraction of F1. At the moment there is millions of Brazilians that are 100% convinced that Rubens is better than Button and much faster but was not given fair shot for the championship or that he lost it with the puncture. Quite a few Germans feel that Vettel was the fastest man this season but could not win it as his engine blew up. And all loving it and waiting the winter testing to start so that they can start speculating who's gonna win next year.

[wackysleet]

= Mjo

But that's the whole point of F1 for me, there is no absolute data or ranking based on indisputable facts for who's fastest or who's the best. It is left for the fans to form their own opinion and that is major part of the attraction of F1. At the moment there is millions of Brazilians that are 100% convinced that Rubens is better than Button and much faster but was not given fair shot for the championship or that he lost it with the puncture. Quite a few Germans feel that Vettel was the fastest man this season but could not win it as his engine blew up. And all loving it and waiting the winter testing to start so that they can start speculating who's gonna win next year.

Mjo

Mjo, having re;read rixalex comments concerning his stats he appears to me simply to be saying who the most successful driver is, which doesn't actually mean who he believes is best, we all seem to think that who we support is tops but that of course is subjective because there has and never will be a level playing field as you yourself have often pointed out with regards to both team drivers getting the same updates at the same time but unless they were both racing using the same tactics then your simply back to square one.

In a previous post I made a comment about Fangio who is my favourite driver of all time, but the man still had shortcomings. Anyone that could drive the 1950 Alfa 158 with a width of 4ft 4 inches on tyres that were skinny to say the least and at speeds in excess of 180 MPH with only one type of tyre available, wet or dry compared to a modern F1 with a width of 6ft and tyres apprx 15inches wide is a very good driver indeed and I suspect as skillful if not more so than any present day driver but the point is that Shumacher is still the most successful driver of all time the bastard.

Edited October 22, 2009 by wackysleet

[rixalex]

Mjo, having re;read rixalex comments concerning his stats he appears to me simply to be saying who the most successful driver is, which doesn't actually mean who he believes is best

That's true Wacky. I don't think that success is a perfect indicator of talent or who is the best, but it is what is generally recognised as a barometer for all sportsmen and women, all over the world. To dismiss it as meaningless is daft.

Anyone that could drive the 1950 Alfa 158 with a width of 4ft 4 inches on tyres that were skinny to say the least and at speeds in excess of 180 MPH with only one type of tyre available, wet or dry compared to a modern F1 with a width of 6ft and tyres apprx 15inches wide is a very good driver indeed and I suspect as skillful if not more so than any present day driver but the point is that Shumacher is still the most successful driver of all time the bastard.

Whole-heartedly agree on both points - Fangio and his fellow competitors of the 50s had an awful lot of skill to keep those cars on the track, especially as they knew that to not do so might mean death - and yes, Schumi is both successful and a bastard!

[Mosha]

Kimi too expensive for Toyota.

http://msnsport.skysports.com/story/0,1952...5642635,00.html

[wackysleet]

Kimi too expensive for Toyota.

http://msnsport.skysports.com/story/0,1952...5642635,00.html

Perhaps he went in with a big demand rather than just say "no thanks, your not competitive" which if he needs to he could always re;approach them rather than completely shutting the door.

[wackysleet]

It's just been announced that Donnington has pulled out of hosting the grand prix due to money problems?, just hope the British round now goes back to Silverstone where it belongs . In my opinion.

[rixalex]

Kimi too expensive for Toyota.

http://msnsport.skysports.com/story/0,1952...5642635,00.html

Perhaps he went in with a big demand rather than just say "no thanks, your not competitive" which if he needs to he could always re;approach them rather than completely shutting the door.

Might be a dangerous game to play though. Toyota might get put off and start looking elsewhere. If McClaren doesn't work out for Kimi, i think he could do far worse than Toyota.

[wackysleet]

Kimi too expensive for Toyota.

http://msnsport.skysports.com/story/0,1952...5642635,00.html

Perhaps he went in with a big demand rather than just say "no thanks, your not competitive" which if he needs to he could always re;approach them rather than completely shutting the door.

Might be a dangerous game to play though. Toyota might get put off and start looking elsewhere. If McClaren doesn't work out for Kimi, i think he could do far worse than Toyota.

Have to agree there, there has to come a time when a company as big as Toyota are going to come good. As I see it when a car is not really competitive there's a tendency to get drivers who possibly cannot bring out the best in the car and the really successful ones will not go down the grid for a ride and take less money, but saying that a couple of recent WDC did just that and ended their careers in that situation.

[coxhoedave]

BRITISH DREAM TEAM

From this mornings Guardian

McClaren last night refused to rule out signing the Formula One world champion, Jenson Button, to partner Lewis Hamilton next season.

Button has yet to sign on with Brawn, with whom he won the world championship. He has said contract talks will not begin until after the season's final grand prix, which takes place in Abu Dhabi on 1 November, but it is believed there is a gap between what he wants to be paid and what Brawn have in mind.

Asked by the Daily Mail whether there had been talks between McLaren and Button's representatives, the McLaren team principal, Martin Whitmarsh, said: "We've talked to a number of drivers. It wouldn't be appropriate to say more than that. We'll hire the two best drivers available to us as we always have."

Kimi Raikkonen, who is being replaced at Ferrari next season by Fernando Alonso, had been expected to join McLaren.

[rixalex]

Todt or Vatanen for you guys?

I'm with Vatanen.

For me, Todt brings with him too much baggage and history, and will do nothing do dispel the widely-held belief that the FIA are biased towards Ferrari.

Should find out later today.

[wackysleet]

Todt or Vatanen for you guys?

I'm with Vatanen.

For me, Todt brings with him too much baggage and history, and will do nothing do dispel the widely-held belief that the FIA are biased towards Ferrari.

Should find out later today.

Kick out a few more of the old school and bring in some new blood thats without favourites, I'm for Ari.

[Mosha]

+1

[Mosha]

BRITISH DREAM TEAM

From this mornings Guardian

McClaren last night refused to rule out signing the Formula One world champion, Jenson Button, to partner Lewis Hamilton next season.

Button has yet to sign on with Brawn, with whom he won the world championship. He has said contract talks will not begin until after the season's final grand prix, which takes place in Abu Dhabi on 1 November, but it is believed there is a gap between what he wants to be paid and what Brawn have in mind.

Asked by the Daily Mail whether there had been talks between McLaren and Button's representatives, the McLaren team principal, Martin Whitmarsh, said: "We've talked to a number of drivers. It wouldn't be appropriate to say more than that. We'll hire the two best drivers available to us as we always have."

Kimi Raikkonen, who is being replaced at Ferrari next season by Fernando Alonso, had been expected to join McLaren.

A team made in heaven Lewis & Jenson, I don't know.

A team made in hel_l Felipe' and fernando, definitely.

[MJo]

Mjo, having re;read rixalex comments concerning his stats he appears to me simply to be saying who the most successful driver is, which doesn't actually mean who he believes is best

That's true Wacky. I don't think that success is a perfect indicator of talent or who is the best, but it is what is generally recognised as a barometer for all sportsmen and women, all over the world. To dismiss it as meaningless is daft.

Anyone that could drive the 1950 Alfa 158 with a width of 4ft 4 inches on tyres that were skinny to say the least and at speeds in excess of 180 MPH with only one type of tyre available, wet or dry compared to a modern F1 with a width of 6ft and tyres apprx 15inches wide is a very good driver indeed and I suspect as skillful if not more so than any present day driver but the point is that Shumacher is still the most successful driver of all time the bastard.

Whole-heartedly agree on both points - Fangio and his fellow competitors of the 50s had an awful lot of skill to keep those cars on the track, especially as they knew that to not do so might mean death - and yes, Schumi is both successful and a bastard!

Yeah i agree, seems we are again arguing for nothing

Now those 50's and 60's guys were amazing. I wonder if "classic" F1 series should be on like in rallying. Just make it safe for the drivers but with classic cars. Would be nice support race for F1 weekends.

[MJo]

+1

+2

Mad max claims he has no experience but he's been in EU parliament for year so knows politics and has the background in motor sports. Also i do not agree the way Mosley has been attacking him and pushing for Todt. He's going and should do it with some class and leave the decision to others. Latest i just read was that he interrupted Ari's last speech in 15 min mark as they both had 15 mins for last words but allowed Todt to speak much longer...

Well we shall see soon. He would definitely bring some openness for the sport and new ways of doing things.

[MJo]

Well it's just out. Todt won 135-49...

Bummer, i'm off for a beer...

[rixalex]

He's going and should do it with some class and leave the decision to others.

Max Mosley and class are two words at odds with each other when used in the same sentence.

Elated to see the back of him, massively disappointed to see his replacement.

Electing Todt is yet another step back for the sport.

[wackysleet]

Mjo, having re;read rixalex comments concerning his stats he appears to me simply to be saying who the most successful driver is, which doesn't actually mean who he believes is best

That's true Wacky. I don't think that success is a perfect indicator of talent or who is the best, but it is what is generally recognised as a barometer for all sportsmen and women, all over the world. To dismiss it as meaningless is daft.

Anyone that could drive the 1950 Alfa 158 with a width of 4ft 4 inches on tyres that were skinny to say the least and at speeds in excess of 180 MPH with only one type of tyre available, wet or dry compared to a modern F1 with a width of 6ft and tyres apprx 15inches wide is a very good driver indeed and I suspect as skillful if not more so than any present day driver but the point is that Shumacher is still the most successful driver of all time the bastard.

Whole-heartedly agree on both points - Fangio and his fellow competitors of the 50s had an awful lot of skill to keep those cars on the track, especially as they knew that to not do so might mean death - and yes, Schumi is both successful and a bastard!

Yeah i agree, seems we are again arguing for nothing

Now those 50's and 60's guys were amazing. I wonder if "classic" F1 series should be on like in rallying. Just make it safe for the drivers but with classic cars. Would be nice support race for F1 weekends.

Mjo mate, we are not arguing, it's mostly just a discussion on our own opinions of drivers etc and racing in general which we all know is subjective.

Discussing about drivers and races along with a bit of history keeps this topic open from one race to another, just look at how many posters we actually get when there's no racing, obviously a lot of our posts are of no interest to many here but two days after a race the topic would die.

Personally I would be very happy to talk about past races and drivers during the interim period as I believe there are no real characters within the present crop of drivers like Senna/Prost/Mansell/Moss the list is endless and yes even Shumacher. .

[MJo]

Mjo mate, we are not arguing, it's mostly just a discussion on our own opinions of drivers etc and racing in general which we all know is subjective.

Discussing about drivers and races along with a bit of history keeps this topic open from one race to another, just look at how many posters we actually get when there's no racing, obviously a lot of our posts are of no interest to many here but two days after a race the topic would die.

Personally I would be very happy to talk about past races and drivers during the interim period as I believe there are no real characters within the present crop of drivers like Senna/Prost/Mansell/Moss the list is endless and yes even Shumacher. .

Maybe i was

No, arguing maybe not the correct word.

I've been hearing something in star sports about F1 classic races from past years they are supposedly showing during the winter break. Any info if it will be like a race per week or something ?

[wackysleet]

He's going and should do it with some class and leave the decision to others.

Max Mosley and class are two words at odds with each other when used in the same sentence.

Elated to see the back of him, massively disappointed to see his replacement.

Electing Todt is yet another step back for the sport.

Possibly a big step forward for Ferrari with the favourtism shown in the past and now Todt, but we will just have to wait and see but I cannot think mad Max would have endorsed him so avidly unless he thought that Todt was cast in the same mould as himself, thus perpetuating he own ego.

[MJo]

I just wonder what will surface from the election. Vatanen has claimed the process is not fair but he got his request for closed vote. Maybe that was a mistake as now it leaves it open for speculation of rigging the election.

There was some confusion during the vote, not that i say there was foul play but the finnish delegates were wondering just before the vote that no one knew how many votes there will be in total etc. But as i said hard to believe anyone could cheat and steal the vote that clearly.

It is also about big amounts of money, for the national associations and for the individuals playing the game. Same as in FIFA and olympics committee etc.

[Mosha]

So Max's choice wins. This can only herald the breakaway.