Can Profound “personal Experience” Be Triggered By Artificial Means & Therefore An Illusion?

[rockyysdt]

I guess the issue is whether the non "self" timeless experience is:

1. A chemically induced unreal experience triggered due to partial suppression of the brain, or

2. An unconditioned & permanent timeless state is real and actually exists.

I'm confused, how exactly does one measure the experience of not self or self with scientific instruments?

The instruments we would be using are ourselves and our personal experience.

At the point at which you experience unconditioned permanence how can you tell this is not another illusion?

That is a chemically induced experience due to many reactions in the brain as suggested earlier by Dr Persingers experiments.

[Svenn]

I guess the issue is whether the non "self" timeless experience is:

1. A chemically induced unreal experience triggered due to partial suppression of the brain, or

2. An unconditioned & permanent timeless state is real and actually exists.

I think your assuming that the observer-object reality of science and the superior parietal lobe is the 'real' reality and thus any lapse by the brain away from that lobe must be an 'illusion'. What is real or unreal is created by the mind, we create reality. This scientific study is from the perspective of a observer looking in, it's not the experience itself. An observer can only define an experience by the reality from which the observing is being done, e.g. in this case the subject-object reality where there are differentiated entities and time. Science is always founded on that reality, as is human language, so they're never going to be able to define or substantiate the existence of any reality beyond that, as it is undefinable by their vocabulary of multitudinous objects and movement. What this study shows is that a human being can continue to operate without attention to the concepts of space or time... implying that those concepts are perhaps superfluous and not the final reality we need to attach to to exist in this world. All this study says is what's going on from an observer's, the superior parietal lobe's, perspective, it DOES NOT tell us what the experience is itself from the perspective of the experiencer. Enlightenment as an entity in the temporal world is indeed just a bundle of slimy neurological connections in a monk's brain, Englightenment as the experience through that monk himself is something entirely different.... we can say that Englightenment is the abscen of space or time, but that still doesn't define it as the 'absence of something' is never a thing itself. Does this sort of answer your question? Btw, i'm by no means trying to say i know what enlightenment is

Edited March 29, 2009 by Svenn

[SeerObserver]

Regardless of any effect a pill or whatever will have on someone's state of mind, true wisdom of the laws of nature is unlikely to be implanted in them and once the dose wears off they will be back to their normal selves. Even if the dose was everlasting or if the person died (due to unrelated causes) while the dose was still at its peak, their samsaric movement would be dictated by kamma which has not been resolved.

No killer, robber, adulterer, liar, or druggie will ever achieve instant nirvana from a pill. Previously unrighteous beings who turned around and became arahants and freed themselves from samsara did so through virtuous efforts and following the path. Angulimala would not have experienced parinirvana having taken an enlightenment pill for the rest of his life, no matter how it made him feel in his mind.

[rockyysdt]

Regardless of any effect a pill or whatever will have on someone's state of mind, true wisdom of the laws of nature is unlikely to be implanted in them and once the dose wears off they will be back to their normal selves. Even if the dose was everlasting or if the person died (due to unrelated causes) while the dose was still at its peak, their samsaric movement would be dictated by kamma which has not been resolved.

No killer, robber, adulterer, liar, or druggie will ever achieve instant nirvana from a pill. Previously unrighteous beings who turned around and became arahants and freed themselves from samsara did so through virtuous efforts and following the path. Angulimala would not have experienced parinirvana having taken an enlightenment pill for the rest of his life, no matter how it made him feel in his mind.

I don't doubt what you & Svenn say.

Buddha's teachings are the way.

In terms of research into quicker ways of preparing a person for enlightenment I keep an open mind.

My intellect tells me that our brain is our interface between this world and nibanna.

That the exercises in concentration & mindfulness we perform prepare this interface to allow us to switch between here & there, or to see what was always there.

Definitely pills won't absolve khamma but didn't the Buddha become enlightened even though his khamma continued to affect him?

I just don't want to end up devoting all my life and many others in a pursuit which turns out to be another myth or illusion, hence my postulating.

Edited March 29, 2009 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

The instruments we would be using are ourselves and our personal experience.

At the point at which you experience unconditioned permanence how can you tell this is not another illusion?

That is a chemically induced experience due to many reactions in the brain as suggested earlier by Dr Persingers experiments.

You misunderstand my question, how can one be sure that "suppressing specific brain waves can simulate experiences such as suppression of the sel", or unity with infinity. How does one measure suppression of the "self"? How does one measure unity with infinity?

I can see how one could simulate a state of meditative concentration through tinkering with brainwaves, in fact I recall there was an article in the newspaper 10 or 15 years ago saying how they did that, I recall my teacher at the time referring to it in one of his dhamma talks, perhaps this is the same one.

I don't see how one could isolate and determine that suppression of the self or unity with infinity had taken place, let alone replicate it scientifically.

[rockyysdt]

The instruments we would be using are ourselves and our personal experience.

At the point at which you experience unconditioned permanence how can you tell this is not another illusion?

That is a chemically induced experience due to many reactions in the brain as suggested earlier by Dr Persingers experiments.

You misunderstand my question, how can one be sure that "suppressing specific brain waves can simulate experiences such as suppression of the sel", or unity with infinity. How does one measure suppression of the "self"? How does one measure unity with infinity?

I can see how one could simulate a state of meditative concentration through tinkering with brainwaves, in fact I recall there was an article in the newspaper 10 or 15 years ago saying how they did that, I recall my teacher at the time referring to it in one of his dhamma talks, perhaps this is the same one.

I don't see how one could isolate and determine that suppression of the self or unity with infinity had taken place, let alone replicate it scientifically.

I see what you mean.

That would make Dr Persingers experiments inconclusive.

[camerata]

Apparently, the God Helmet is fairly contoversial. The Wiki entry says: "There is controversy as to whether Persinger measured actual effects or just led his subjects into believing they experienced an electronically-induced epiphany. In December 2004 Nature reported that a group of Swedish researchers, replicating the experiment under double-blind conditions, was not able to verify the effect."

When Richard Dawkins tried the helmet, he experienced no religious feeling: "Dr Persinger has explained away the failure of this Transcranial Magnetic Stimulator. Before donning the helmet, Prof Dawkins had scored low on a psychological scale measuring proneness to temporal lobe sensitivity."

When a reporter from Wired tried the helmet: "I'm not sure what it says about me that the neural sensation designed to prompt visions of God set loose my ancient feelings about girls. But then, I'm not the first person to conflate God with late-night thoughts of getting laid - read more about it in Saint Augustine, Saint John of the Cross, or Deepak Chopra. "

and

"In fact, as transcendental experiences go, on a scale of 1 to 10, Persinger's helmet falls somewhere around, oh, 4. Even though I did have a fairly convincing out-of-body experience, I'm disappointed relative to the great expectations and anxieties I had going in. "

This doesn't sound much like nibbana to me. In fact, it sounds like simliar claims made for drugs like mescaline and, more recently, natural substances like DMT.

As others have said, if you mess around with the brain's chemistry you are going to get feelings of loss of self. Perhaps a feeling of oneness with the cosmos is one aspect of nibbana (the Buddha never said it was, AFAIK), but it can't be the whole experience. For one thing, nibbana lasts the rest of your life.

[LoveBug]

To address what the OP wrote:

Did the scientists actually compare the artificially induced "enlightenment" with the brain of an actual Arahat? Just because one is a monk, doesn't make one an Arahat. People can master the breath and brain without becoming enlightened.

But now you see what occult powers or siddhis or accomplishments are used for. A real attanment brings power with it, power that can be verified and proven by the practitioner. What a real master can do would astound ordinary people. If these powers are reproduced by those who used "artificial" means to enlightenment, I would like to know it. A real adept whether Buddhist or otherwise, can hear a conversation at any distance. He can know the past, present and future. His consciousness is steady even in the transition between life and death. He can be a thousand miles away from you and describe something behind your back. Can science reproduce this in a laboratory?

And no, these aren't just stories. These are real events. Once you have seen and experienced them first-hand, science is seen for what it really is - the desire to conquer and "explain" everything in material nature, but is unable to go beyond it.

By the way, when the first taste of "satori" hits, it will drive the person almost to the brink of madness. Again, I doubt the science project was able to discover that.

[LoveBug]

And yes, "personal experience" only can be dangerous and self-deceptive. If one is masterof the inner world, one is also master of the outer world. Hence the bringing about of certain phenomena in appropriate circumstances as proof of the inner transformation within. It is a sign, and nothing more.

[chutai]

Thanks for the clarification and for providing the text.

One doesn't need to locate the mind in order to be aware of it and to go through the process of purifying it, trying to locate it often ends up in us imagining where it is which is unhelpful. Asians tend to assume it's in the heart, we assume it's in the brain, it's probably a good thing in term of practice to let go of the idea it's in the brain.

But no one can locate the mind as it both exists and doesn't exist. It has no identifiable form,colour, shape or size. But we can imagine with the mind. The mind can also be defined, as I think it is in other religions, as 'the soul'. But as with all phenomena the mind is interrelated - in this case directly with the brain and all other phenomenon. In terms of practice it is good to try and analyze the mind and indeed the concept of self in order to realise that neither have any actual substance in themselves. But this is not the same thing as to negate either to the point of annihilation - this would be a slander - as Buddhism is only realised in life of which the mind is part.

[sabaijai]

All nama--mental phenomena--is conditioned, whether by eating food, drinking water, meditating, surgery, electrical stimulation etc. Only what isn't conditioned can be nibbana.

[glasshock]

No