Organic fertilisers, foliar feeds etc..

[jandtaa]

Hi folks

just cut and pasted this from an earlier thread

HOW ADEQUATE IS CHICKEN MANURE TEA AS A FERTILIZER? One aspect of ECHO's ministry is behind the scenes for most of our readers. We help college professors and students in the sciences identify research projects that would be of benefit to the small farmer. Several ideas that could be done at an undergraduate level are written up in what we call Academic Opportunity Sheets. Nathan Duddles, while an undergraduate at California Polytechnic University, did an outstanding job answering the above question. I should think his 100-page report is of master's thesis quality.

He placed fresh chicken manure in a burlap bag, added a rock to make sure it did not float, and set it in water in a 35 gallon garbage can. If you were making such a tea, how long would you let it set to get out most of the nutrients? Nathan measured nitrogen in the "tea" each week and found that with 20 pounds of manure the maximum was nearly reached after only 1 week. It took 3 weeks with 35 and 50 pounds. However, the concentration apparently became so high that bacteria stopped working because he got even less nitrogen with 50 pounds than with 35 pounds.

How does the tea compare to an ideal hydroponic solution? He measured several nutrients in the tea made from 20 pounds after 4 weeks. After diluting it to a fourth its original concentration he compared it to one such standard hydroponic solution. The tea concentrations followed by the standard are: total nitrogen (219; 175), nitrate (4; 145), ammonium (215; 30), phosphorous (54; 65), potassium (295; 400), calcium (6; 197), sodium (62; 0), magnesium (0; 2), iron (0; 2), manganese (0; 0.5), copper (0; 0.03), zinc (0.05; 0.05). The major nutrients and zinc are adequate. Only calcium and tiny amounts of iron, manganese and copper would need to come from another source. Unless you are growing hydroponically where all nutrients must come from the tea, these should be available from the soil or compost. He suggests that lowering the pH from 7.3 to near 6 might provide some of these, or some might come from dilute sea water.

Total nitrogen was ideal, though it would preferably be in the nitrate rather than ammonium form. However, the tomatoes grown with the tea or a hydroponic solution (somewhat different and less ideal than the one above unfortunately) grew only marginally better with the chemical preparation.

Tomatoes were grown in wood chips to see how the tea would work with our rooftop gardens and in sand or sawdust for comparison. Growth in wood chips was superior in every case, apparently because the other two were so wet that roots could not get enough air. He analyzed the concentrations of nutrients present in plant tissues and found that the only significant difference was that plants grown with manure had more sodium. The micronutrients must have come from the growing medium. We have a Technical Note on this subject for those interested in more details. 

HOW TO MAKE A FISH EMULSION FERTILIZER. We had been asked this question but I never knew the answer until Organic Gardening answered it in their February 1990 issue. It does not make me want to go to my suburban home and try it, but I could see its use on the small farm.

"Place fish scraps in a large container and add water. Cover the top securely with a cloth plus a wire screen to keep out animals and insects. Put the container in a sunny location to ferment for 8 to 12 weeks. You can add a small amount of citrus oil or other scent to mask some of the odor, but be sure to keep the container where your neighbors won't complain. Try to avoid spilling any fish scraps or fishy water on the ground, where they will attract animals. When finished, a layer of mineral-rich oil will float on the water, and fish scales will have sunk to the bottom. Skim off the oil and store in a tight-fitting container. To use, dilute 1 cup of oil with 5 gallons of water. Your homemade fish emulsion will be rich in nitrogen, phosphorous and many trace elements, but generally low in calcium."

[THAIPHUKET]

The question is probably to simply put.

We put 14 trucks of cow shit on some 20 rai.

How would you expect the harvest result to differ from chemical fertilizer?

Does it make economical sense at all?

Paid for 14 truck of different sizes 40.000 b, no idea of actual quantity.

If cow shit makes sense as a good / better fertilizer how to set a fair price?

No one knows how much shit is in a barn.

[ozzydom]

The question is probably to simply put.

We put 14 trucks of cow shit on some 20 rai.

How would you expect the harvest result to differ from chemical fertilizer?

Does it make economical sense at all?

Paid for 14 truck of different sizes 40.000 b, no idea of actual quantity.

If cow shit makes sense as a good / better fertilizer how to set a fair price?

No one knows how much shit is in a barn.

Sounds like you are working on the theory of "more is better".

Raw cow dung is pretty low in essential elements ,EG Nitrogen ,Phosphorous and Potassium and can lead to Nitrogen deficiency if put straight onto cropping soil . You dont say what you intend to grow on the 20 rai.

Around here ,dung goes for about 100 baht per sq met. so you either bought a huge amount of <deleted> or paid far to much.

Unless you are into growing organically or have access to extremely cheap dung IMHO it is false economy as dung cannot match balanced chemical fertilizer .

A soil analysis would in all probability show that if your soil had deficiencies all that would be needed to rectify them would be one or two x 50 kg bags of the required NPK at about 400 baht a bag.

Different crops have differing fertilizer requirements ,that is why soil analysis is so important to successful cropping.

[gazzasore]

Cow Pooh is very good but watch out for the seeds in the Pooh

Chicken Pooh seems to very good for any Thai plant for food IE Chili Mango Paw Paw

The best seedless Pooh's come from Feed Lots Grain Feed Cattle Chicken etc

[teletiger]

Has npk come down that much? Cheapest I've ever paid for npk is 500 Baht. (any combination) Last year 46-0-0 and 15-15-15 were 1400+ Baht.

Hope you ploughed it in Thaiphuket, otherwise after the first big storm, your 100+ tons of kee vuar will be sitting in your grinning neighbour's field.

Regards.

Edit: 14 different sized trucks.....say 100 tons.....4000 Baht per ton. We pay 300 Baht per ton. (own transport) Oz gets the best price if he meant 100 Baht per cu mt.

[teletiger]

Thaiphuket, try here.

http://www.agmrc.org/business_development/...e_nutrients.cfm

Quote:

Manure Nutrient Value versus a Commercial Fertilizer Budget

Manure is a fertility package. The nutrient components as applied will not be in the same proportion as a commercial fertilizer recommendation. Value adjustments may need to be made to account for these differences. Some manure components that are in excess of crop needs may be discounted. Consideration also should be given to shortages (especially P and K) if they need to be supplemented commercially.

A typical manure management plan for a corn-soybean rotation will call for the manure to be applied before the corn crop at a rate calculated by the nitrogen need. The P and K components included in this application may be sufficient for the 2nd year soybean crop. A nutrient cost comparison should be made to a typical two-year commercial fertilizer budget.

A continuous corn manure management plan will call for annual applications based on nitrogen need. It is likely the pounds of P and K applied will exceed crop maintenance needs. If background soil fertility levels are already high, these extra nutrients could be discounted.

A Manure Calculator can assist in these calculations:

Manure calculator??

There's a downloadable one on the site.

They're American prices...but the conclusion is 115/45 in favour of.......(drum roll).....poo.

Put your own prices in there. Have fun.

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

The question is probably to simply put.

We put 14 trucks of cow shit on some 20 rai.

How would you expect the harvest result to differ from chemical fertilizer?

Does it make economical sense at all?

Paid for 14 truck of different sizes 40.000 b, no idea of actual quantity.

If cow shit makes sense as a good / better fertilizer how to set a fair price?

No one knows how much shit is in a barn.

Fresh? - its not much good at all.

Dried out, or slurried - excellent.

In all three cases (fresh, dried out, slurried) get it onto the soil and plough in a good 3 weeks plus or so before sowing.

Baht 40 for 14 truck loads? - whats a truckload in size/cubic meters (roughly)?

On balance - no, you'd have been better value for money selecting the correct fertiliser for the application - it would have come out cheaper and given you a better net yield, let me put it that way - but the condition of course been understanding what fertilser was needed for what the soil conditions were and what you were intending to grow. The manure on balance will not do as well, but it does offer a more all round and flexible solution - and if you are into eco-farming (not using chemicals ect ect ....), the manure of course is a better choice.

In a way 6 of one, half a dozen of another.....

[ozzydom]

The question is probably to simply put.

We put 14 trucks of cow shit on some 20 rai.

How would you expect the harvest result to differ from chemical fertilizer?

Does it make economical sense at all?

Paid for 14 truck of different sizes 40.000 b, no idea of actual quantity.

If cow shit makes sense as a good / better fertilizer how to set a fair price?

No one knows how much shit is in a barn.

Fresh? - its not much good at all.

Dried out, or slurried - excellent.

In all three cases (fresh, dried out, slurried) get it onto the soil and plough in a good 3 weeks plus or so before sowing.

Baht 40 for 14 truck loads? - whats a truckload in size/cubic meters (roughly)?

On balance - no, you'd have been better value for money selecting the correct fertiliser for the application - it would have come out cheaper and given you a better net yield, let me put it that way - but the condition of course been understanding what fertilser was needed for what the soil conditions were and what you were intending to grow. The manure on balance will not do as well, but it does offer a more all round and flexible solution - and if you are into eco-farming (not using chemicals ect ect ....), the manure of course is a better choice.

In a way 6 of one, half a dozen of another.....

Which is why I asked ,what crop he was planting.

To whack up to 5 tonnes per rai on paddy it is going to be a Nitrogen rich slurry akin to liquid manure and I fear the growth will result in tall stems that end up flattened in the first decent storm , snails will love it.

[jandtaa]

Hi folks you may find this link useful manures for organic crop production

It provides a good overview and addresses some of the problems associated with using manure as a fertiliser 

cheers J

[Foreverford]

Has npk come down that much? Cheapest I've ever paid for npk is 500 Baht. (any combination) Last year 46-0-0 and 15-15-15 were 1400+ Baht.

Hope you ploughed it in Thaiphuket, otherwise after the first big storm, your 100+ tons of kee vuar will be sitting in your grinning neighbour's field.

Regards.

Edit: 14 different sized trucks.....say 100 tons.....4000 Baht per ton. We pay 300 Baht per ton. (own transport) Oz gets the best price if he meant 100 Baht per cu mt.

Good guess on quantity. Should be a ballpark figure but it would be nice to get Thaipuket to respond on what he is doing because he could be in a real mess as has been stated if he is in fact putting down 5 tons of fresh manure per rai. He may need to put some kind of scraper on the land if it hasn't been incorporated too deep and work it into a few piles. If he is lucky and he has it stock piled then he has some black gold and can use it for years to come. He paid actually 400 baht a ton for 100 tons for 40,000 baht. If it is aged manure that is a very good deal in my book. If it were bagged it would be a steal (50 bags for 400 or 8 a bag) (I paid that for just the bags and the cost to fill them when I got a lot of free cow maNure), I wouldn't think it was bagged. This amount coming at one time is probbaly indicative of a dairy farm operation or a feed lot possibly with multiple trucks doing the hauling.

There is a man from Surin who scoures the countryside around and about Korat to where he is in Surin and can't find anymore so it is becoming extremely valuable and hard to locate. He is part of the organic rice growing movement over there and he is using and has used one 10 wheeler of aged manure per ten rai on an annual basis with huge and excellent results with soil fertiloity increasing immensly.

I was lucky enought to get one ten wheeler (The wife has a 14 rai plot for it) this year (unfortunately only 13 tons as most of the bags were a bit under the optimum 25 kilo weight) from the Kings Royal Project of many many small individual dairy farms in a local village near the Palace in Hua Hin. The 20,000 baht transport costs attests to the quality of the manure. It was all very very finely broken down as these small holdings haven't been cleaned for many years. The material is as good as you can ever want but it is a bit of a logistical tight-rope to organize the entire process and make it somewhat more affordable. At a cost of 0 baht for the material it can be a good buy at twice the price of 400 baht if i can bring down my bagging and transport costs. Ideally a tractor trailer truck would bring the costs more in line.

The more you look at it the more it proves that sustainaable (having your own chickens or livestock in sufficient numbers to create your annual needs of manure) is the optimum scenario. For us who aren't in that situation anyone who knows of any sources of manure in the greater Issan area be advised that you would have plenty of friends wating to treat you to an evening at the local pub with a T-Bone steak dinner for giving up the source of your black gold. This year I'm going to try to get in two green manure crops after the rice comes in and with another load of gold and a bit of Biochar from a newly invented Straw Carboniser (I've got the idea now all the brain needs to do is figure out a design) we'll be looking for improved results. subba subba

[jandtaa]

Came across this amongst my PDF's and thought I'd stick it up inorganic_fertiliser_conversion.pdf

Cheers J

[THAIPHUKET]

uuuuuuuups , it will take me some time to digest your information, much appreciated !

I assumed that organic dung by itself is not the best. But I didnt want to talk down on the village people, take it gently. Cow dung doesnt do harm.

Secondly, I was aware that I probably was overpaying but the people were dealing in good face and to bring them closer to concepts of operating cost, etc didnt seem appropriate at this point. Because no one really knew what quantities of dung were actually sold / bought. No one had a yard stick.

I am too much a novice myself, eager to learn ready to make mistakes plus allow others their mistakes.

[teletiger]

Thaiphuket, In my pre-caffine analysis of your post, I stated 4000 Baht per ton. I'm a <deleted>. (cool <deleted>). you paid 400 Baht per ton. 'And with transport included......that's not a bad price. Assuming of course none of the "different sized" trucks were pick-up trucks. If you grow corn....it will get to 3 metres.....but you will harvest the same weight as your neighbours 2 metre corn. Don't worry, keep reading here. Next year you'll harvest 50% more. (unless he reads here too ).

Regards.

[jandtaa]

This post is from  TeleTiger

Not sure where to put this. Jandtaa is still sorting out his smalls , one more for you son.

Couple of days ago Jandtaa asked me about converting nitrogen lbs into urea. Simple. Divide by 2.2 (urea is always in kilos)

90/2.2=41kilos. Expressed in bags of urea (50 kilo bags....23 kilos actual urea... Erm...er (I was good at fractions)...er C. 1.8 bags urea per 90 lbs nitrogen. 

Now.... a better question is how to equate manure in NPK terms (bags).

The biggest problem with manure is the DM (dry matter) content....Or lack of it. Websites quote "well composted", "fresh", "Dried", 'and none of them post a DM number, which makes their following NPK values as "diddly squat". 

This is from http://www.allotment.org.uk/fertilizer/index.php

NPK Values of Animal Manures       Cow Manure            Pig Manure            Chicken Manure

N Nitrogen %                                0.6                         0.8                          1.1                        

P Phosphorus %                             0.4                         0.7                          0.8 

K Potassium                                  0.5                         0.5                          0.5

Anyway....this all means nothing without a DM number. This table was described as fresh. So we'll use our imaginations and create a ball-park figure. NPK is the control at 100% DM. Therefore all following figures are 100% DM...No water.

Kee vuar (Cows) =  30KG N : 20KG P : 25KG K...per ton

Kee moo (pigs) = 40KG N : 35KG P : 30KG K...per ton

Kee Ghai (chicken-Layer) = 59KG N : 40KG P : 25KG K...per ton 

I'm going to add a +/- 5/10% caveat in there. Just got back from a local "pig head" party. Khao Lak(?) was the only thing on offer. I duly imbibed.(rude not to, right?) Bottle it?? They should put it in phialls and export it to the NHS as anastheatic

When buying Kee "whatever" take into account the water content. Dry kee....crumbles in your hand, leaves no mark, will at best be 90% DM. 70/90 DM will try to form a ball, but will crumble. 50/70%DM will just about form a ball, 30/50 %DM a Kee-ball fight will break out......anything less than that, take wellies and waterproofs. Prices should decline accordingly.

A little something extra. Being a lazy b@stard my philosophy is to dig in 2 bags of kee and let things take care of themselves.

Something I've not seen before

Nitrogen Requirements of Various Crops

Very High Nitrogen Requirement

•Brussels Sprouts

•Cabbages

•Rhubarb

High Nitrogen

•Beetroot

•Celery

•Leeks

•Spinach

Medium Nitrogen

•Broccoli

•Calabrese

•Cauliflower

•Lettuce

Low Nitrogen

•Asparagus

•Runner Beans

•Parsnip

•Swede

•Onion

Very Low Nitrogen

•Carrots

•Radish

No Nitrogen

•Peas

•Broad Beans

Remember that legumes produce their own nitrogen due to a symbiotic relationship with bacteria that fix nitrogen from the air for the plant, which is why peas and broad beans need no nitrogen and runner beans with all their foliage need just low levels to supplement their own produced nitrogen.

Regards

 

[jandtaa]

Cheers TT

I know somewhere I have something with NPK contents of all sorts of manures and ammendments (blood,horn and hoof etc) can't remember if it's in a veg growing book or a PDF on my UK computer but when I get back (5 days time) I'll hunt it out and try to put together a table including green manures etc apply your sums to give urea content and any any info on trace elements I can find and place it in the pinned Resources thread so that it's always to hand.

 This illustrates the importance of moisture content :

  Materials N P2O5 K2O Availability

Poultry (75% water) 1.5 1.0 0.5 Medium-Rapid

Poultry (50% water) 2.0 2.0 1.0 Medium-Rapid

Poultry (30% water) 3.0 2.5 1.5 Medium-Rapid

Poultry (15% water) 6.0 4.0 3.0 Medium-Rapid

And if and what bedding material is contained in the manureshould be taken in to account 

I agree with you about DM . Every @#$%@* site uses different figures, it's the same trying to extract meaningful data from field trials on green manures etc !! What is needed is an industry standard to base all figures on, said standard to be decided upon by members of TV organic forum  !!

Yeah it's always worth bearing in mind the nitrogen requirements of the crop . In the UK veg plot we use a crop rotation plan following heavy feeders with lighter feeders but thats a whole new thread!!

Cheers for now J   

[jandtaa]

Just found this fertiliser cost formulas

Not as much fun as Teletigers manure calculator but a whole bunch of formulas clearly explained

J

[Smithson]

Regarding cow poo vs chook poo, as the latter is much stronger yet around the same price, it seems to be better value. I've found Thais don't use much of it though and prefer the cow manure. Even when the raise chickens they don't collect the manure. Any thoughts as to why?

[MrWiggle]

Bird Flu.....cows have not had the flu yet in recent years.

[jandtaa]

Hi folks

Wet enough to surf here in the UK today !! so thats what I've been doing.Some quite interesting info on organic fertiliser and foliar feed here link 

cheers for now J

[loong]

I have long been puzzled by the Thais taking cow manure straight from the pen and putting it on the soil. This goes against everything that you read, yet it does seem to benefit the crops in many cases.

I've just bought some manure freshly scraped from the cow pen and I'm going to experiment a little I think.

I do wonder if the fact that they do not take great care of their cattle actually speeds up the composting time in some way. The cows are not mucked out on a regular basis. Normally only when they have a buyer for the dung or the cows are standing up to their necks in poo. (ok a bit of an exaggeration!)

The cows are penned for the night and obviously add to the manure, but they are also urinating and moving around. So they are adding nitrogen from the urine and constantly churning the manure with their hooves.

Would this churning lead to a quicker composting period?

[drtreelove]

Hi folks

Wet enough to surf here in the UK today !! so thats what I've been doing.Some quite interesting info on organic fertiliser and foliar feed here link

cheers for now J

That's a good link to a great company with lots of information and interesting, useful products: Peaceful Valley Farm Supply at www.groworganic.com I've visited their nursery in the Grass Valley area of the beautiful foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains of California. Get their hard copy catalog if you can and it will keep you busy for hours studying all the cool stuff and useful tips; it's a learning experience in itself. Don

[Foreverford]

Hi folks

Wet enough to surf here in the UK today !! so thats what I've been doing.Some quite interesting info on organic fertiliser and foliar feed here link

cheers for now J

That's a good link to a great company with lots of information and interesting, useful products: Peaceful Valley Farm Supply at www.groworganic.com I've visited their nursery in the Grass Valley area of the beautiful foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains of California. Get their hard copy catalog if you can and it will keep you busy for hours studying all the cool stuff and useful tips; it's a learning experience in itself. Don

Hey Doc what's happenin'? Are you still Thailand? I remember reading a thing in the Post that makes me think your footloose if not fancy free or such. Anywho those folks have been around from before the wheel I think but I remember them from the 70's, a great source.

Here's some new info posted on our mother link and I'm sure we'll get some response on this one as it appears to look quite promising. Farm with Fords

[Foreverford]

HUMATES and other great products from a great source

http://www.nutri-tec...ate-phenomenon/

thanks Dr Treelove

Hi folks

Wet enough to surf here in the UK today !! so thats what I've been doing.Some quite interesting info on organic fertiliser and foliar feed here link

cheers for now J

That's a good link to a great company with lots of information and interesting, useful products: Peaceful Valley Farm Supply at www.groworganic.com I've visited their nursery in the Grass Valley area of the beautiful foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains of California. Get their hard copy catalog if you can and it will keep you busy for hours studying all the cool stuff and useful tips; it's a learning experience in itself. Don

Hey Doc what's happenin'? Are you still Thailand? I remember reading a thing in the Post that makes me think your footloose if not fancy free or such. Anywho those folks have been around from before the wheel I think but I remember them from the 70's, a great source.

Here's some new info posted on our mother link and I'm sure we'll get some response on this one as it appears to look quite promising. Farm with Fords

[krauti]

Hi all,

to introduce myselfe: I am an Austrian selling a brandnew organic foliar fertilizer in Thailand: SUPERGREEN. Consisting of Dolomite (a Limestone) and milled in a new High Tech milling machine, the average particle size of SUPERGREEN is 6 micrometer. That means, the particles can enter the leaves of every plant.

It is this penetration who makes SUPERGREEN so successful; the particles (CaCO3) are split within the leaf into CO2 and CaO. So, the leaf gets the so much needed CO2 directly. This enhances the Photosynthesis by about 30 - 40 %. More photosynthesis means more production of chlorophyllum, sugars, starch.

The particles who do not enter the leaves stay on the surface. Dew splits this compound as well into CO2 and CaO. So, the leave is saturated daily with CO2 who will enter the Stomata easily.

If hou want to test the product, please let me know. I will send you some samples so you can see by your own testing the advantage of SUPERGREEN. By the way, SUPERGREEN is approved for organic farming in Europe and in the US.

Best regards

Werner Kraeutler

MEGAGROW Co. Ltd.,

Nonthaburi

12 pages Information sheet SUPERGREEN.pdf

[IsaanAussie]

About time to light this topic up again. I am looking for volunteers who are willing to try my new organic fertiliser. I can supply a few kilos by post to the first five that PM me. All you have do is tell me if it is any good. I need geniune comments so please the stuff wont cost you anything but I expect the feedback.

[rice555]

Hello All, for anybody in the CM area, great web site in ENG, for anybody

else to see what others are doing.

rice555

www.thai-organic-compost.com

[IsaanAussie]

Hello All, for anybody in the CM area, great web site in ENG, for anybody

else to see what others are doing.

rice555

www.thai-organic-compost.com

WOW now that is one big compost pile. Prices look pretty reasonable, well worth a look, thanks Rice

[rice555]

Hello IA, I liked that they will deliver, also they will spread it with

the large load$, and no shit compost for the the sprout eaters.

No animals or animal byproducts for the Vegan people.

rice555

[IsaanAussie]

I spent some time thinking about that pile of teak wood chips. Firstly the operation looks full time so the amount of chips collected and heaped for a year must be massive. Man I look at my 6, 1 cub m compost boxes and think time to turn all of that again? Still, they have much bigger pitch forks I'll bet.

[IsaanAussie]

Yesterday I started making pellets from my compost instead of bagging it up. I hope to get NPK tests run on the straight manure based compost pellets against the enriched stuff I have been making.

Anyone else out there doing something similar?