Canadian Condo Owner Claims False Arrest

[johnefallis]

What about all the vollentier police do they have work permit.

All farang shut leave thailand for 2 years, sale all they own here, then the police and guverment had to start thinking about how to do good to people how bring in so much cash to thailand

1.) Volunteer police are supposed to have work permits, but most don't. This has been a recent internal immigration topic.

2.) Novel idea. We should all go to Cambodia for a year or two, get some competition going around here for our business. It's such a monopoly now.

Or maybe the Philippines, they speak English there, most of them do in Malaysia too.

[johnefallis]

I don't think sitting on the mgmt board in an unpaid capacity can be termed work within the context of the law. He was after all over seeing his investment and ensuring that he and other condo owners were able to hire Thais to do the management. If he is accused of working, then the person that oversees his/her domestic staff is working when he does their pay and hiring. The management board serves to provide a voice to the unit owners. What the aggrieved management company has done is say F you to the owners and most likely set out charging fees that cannot be challenged. With reports like this, I can't believe people still insist on buying condo units.

When you buy a condo here in Thailand you have no say in what the Condo owner can do with management fees.A customer of our company bought a Condo for 4,000,000 Bhat. The management fee was 1,200 per mounth.That covered security,rubbish removal ,lighting,and as the say maintance. After 12 mounths they put the fee up to 2,350 bhat.The owner complained but could not do anything about the increase. There is very small print in condo contracts that the owner can change the fee at any time......So when people buy a condo they do sometimes not read the small print . I think that it is not good to Buy Condos untill they change the law to protect the buyer from overcharging maintance fees. The same applies to buying a house on an estate,The estates company can charge what they like and you cannot do anything about it except sell, As they say you pay per mounth or get out.

WRONG. Maybe read the new laws before you comment. You won't look so foolish that way. Owners, especially those on the board, do have a say in things.

[DMasut]

Foriegn footballers in the UK must have a work permit! Is football 'work'? Work permit laws are the same all over the world.

Actually if they are in Thailand legally they have an entertainer or athletic visa depending on how long they are there.

If they endorse any Thai company products in Thailand they must also amend their visa with those sponsorships being mentioned.

[DMasut]

Thai visa and work permit laws are both specific and vague.

Visas not covered under a specific work permit prevents "ANY WORK PAID OR UNPAID" as illegal.

So as you go to your friend's bar, restaurant or other business and even asked as a favor to get a customer a drink, advise them on doing business, etc. violates the terms of your visa.

If you do have a work permit, it is VERY VERY specifically LIMITED to the job description you applied for.... so say for instance

you work as an English teacher, but moonlight as a bartender... you're breaking the law... and in many cases... your work permit is exclusive to the employer that sponsored your work permit.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU'RE MARRIED TO A THAI, KNOW THE PM PERSONALLY (that actually might cause you more problems these days) , have been legally in the country for 20 years... unless you are a Thai citizen, you must have a proper work permit.

For professional athletes, entertainers, journalists, etc... we must pay for each change of duties before doing them.

This means even when a Thai or other friend or employers says 'don't worry about it'...WORRY ABOUT IT!!! and JUST DON'T DO IT!!!...until you have secured a proper work permit. This goes for all of you PADI 'Dive Slaves' that are now divemasters working towards your Instructors ticket. If you are on an education visa... there is some flexibilty to functions of your leaning... but doesn't mean you can work part time at McDonalds... unless you have a work permit tat says so.

If you own a McDonalds franchise in every country in the world, and go into your Thai franchise and go behind the counter to teach one of your employees how to cook a hamburger.... if your visa/work permit do not list 'manager, trainer, etc. on it...you are in violation of the law and subject to arrest, detention and deportation.

Sad thing is Thailand take these seemingly minor 'visa and work permit violations' serious. It is not a fix it ticket.

You are jailed, transferred to the Immigration Detention Center in Bangkok (euphemism for Bangkok Prison for Illegal Immigrants) where unless you have friends and attorneys on the outside prepared to buy your flight to your home country and pay your fines, you may spent months and in some people's cases years waiting for deportation on visa overstay, work permit violations, etc.

It is not a joke, it happens to many people everyday that thought it was 'not that big a deal'.

Thai people don't see it as a problem because they live their and are at no risk of such violations, therefore don't understand the laws.

Do it right, stay within the laws, or expect a 'shorter than planned' visit to the "Land of Smiles" and a prolonged departure with added expenses.

I agree that Immigration policy needs to be changed, especially for people and companies that that have cleared the hoops to qualify for these visa and work permits to invest in their and Thailand's future.

When you have qualified, you should have the same living, work and investment oppoirtunities as Thai people as is the case in most countries with the exception of the Middle East, Zimbabwe, Mexico and other places that do not consider non-citizens equals.

Edited March 30, 2009 by DMasut

[thaiwanderer]

thread closed, then re-opened?

[Brewsta]

"If you refuse to keep a low profile in LOS and offend the wrong person you ARE going to be guilty of something."

True but sad that, sometimes, adopting a "Fugitive" profile is the Way here........

regards and enjoy Songkran One and All....

Brewsta

[stevenl]

However, in order to obtain a work permit a person must be earning more than 60,000 baht a month (in Bangkok) and have registered capital of.....etc,etc

This is not correct. Also a volunteer, earning 0, can get a workpermit.

What is the fee for that work permit? I doubt that it is reciprocal.

If you have nothing serious to add except bashing other members, stay out of the discussion.

[JR Texas]

However, in order to obtain a work permit a person must be earning more than 60,000 baht a month (in Bangkok) and have registered capital of.....etc,etc

This is not correct. Also a volunteer, earning 0, can get a workpermit.

What is the fee for that work permit? I doubt that it is reciprocal.

If you have nothing serious to add except bashing other members, stay out of the discussion.

As an aside, there appear to be a lot of foreigners--especially in Pattaya-Jomtien--who own condos in Thailand, rent them out to other foreigners, take the money BUT they have no work permit. Surely this is illegal (no offense Shirley). Right?

[stingray]

Usuually nobody owns five condos to use them for him self. I guess he rented 4 condos and got some extra income. This consider under "working" wihout work permit, specially if he signs any bills or rental agreements.

[dgarmaise]

Surely the spirit of the law is that if you are doing work that a Thai person could be doing instead, you need a work permit. So, if you buying and selling second-hand toasters, you need a work permit. If you are volunteering three times a week at the local orphanage, this one is a little tougher, but I can see someone making the argument that if you weren't doing that, the orphanage might hire a Thai person to do that work (even if the reality is that the orphanage does not have the money to do so). Or, I suppose the authorities could even argue that you are depriving a Thai person from getting experience that might eventually lead to him or her landing a job in that field, though that is obviously a bit of a stretch.

If you are painting your own house, I can't see the argument for needing a work permit (though you might need a buildiing permit!).

If you own a condo and rent it out, I doubt you need a work permit, but that one affects a lot of farang and should definitely be clarified.

I realise that I am just taking about what I think the spirit of the law is, and that selective enforcement is a whole other matter.

(What about trying to raise some money among other farang to give o a Thai charity? Do you need a work permit for that?!)

[johnefallis]

However, in order to obtain a work permit a person must be earning more than 60,000 baht a month (in Bangkok) and have registered capital of.....etc,etc

This is not correct. Also a volunteer, earning 0, can get a workpermit.

What is the fee for that work permit? I doubt that it is reciprocal.

If you have nothing serious to add except bashing other members, stay out of the discussion.

Why don't you point out to me what is "bashing" of other members? And to which members. You certainly can't be referring to my pointing out that even a work permit to work for free is not free, in fact expensive. So what is it?

Otherwise, I'll assume my point is made, you are wrong, and you will now have nothing to say.

[cookyboy]

That Blue Canyon development in Phuket has been emeshed in controversy for the past decade. Don't know why anyone would get himself involved in that mess by buying multiple units there. There are regular notices in the English language press about contested ownership claims to the entire development!

As to "working" on a condo's management board...this really needs to be clarified if it is not already clear in Thai law. If they allow up to 49% ownership of a condo to foreigners, these owners need to have the right to serve on the management committees. As a homeowner, there is also the question of repairs and improvements around my house...stuff like painting...is it considered "work" if I do it myself?

i agree with you maybe one day we are in the garden cutting the grass and they say that we are acting the role as a gardener, especialy if the house is in the wife,s name

[stevenl]

Why don't you point out to me what is "bashing" of other members? And to which members. You certainly can't be referring to my pointing out that even a work permit to work for free is not free, in fact expensive. So what is it?

Otherwise, I'll assume my point is made, you are wrong, and you will now have nothing to say.

What point has been made?

I point out that also a volunteer, earning 0, can get a work permit. According to you I am wrong, fine, just check with some of the more knowledgeable people here on this forum, who have also indicated that also a volunteer can (and normally must) have a workpermit.

[thaiwanderer]

Yes doing DIY around your house might be considered 'work' under the labour laws simply becaase the definition is so wide (and in fact self defining), however to attack the treatment of Mr Nixon because of the ridiculousness of this at the far end of the scale is a little weak. He appears to have been doing far more than cutting the grass.

The PG piece is shoddy in not remotely clarifying the role Mr Nixon was really playing (my previous post refers - was he manager, chairman, committee member, proxy, a landlord etc.?) .

Selective enforcement of widely drafted laws of course appears to play a role but to merely put this to the fore whilst ignoring his own actions putting him in obvious danger should scrutiny ever arise (which is highly likely when a dispute over fees occurs - as is entirely possible between the manager and the joint owners) is disingenuous.

Mr Nixon had apparently been living in Thailand for 10 years and an frequent visitor for 10 years before that. I am suprised he is suprised (although his choice of blue canyon in the first place needs to be taken into account). Depending on the precise role he was undertaking it appears he was either taking a risk or a greater risk, but a risk nonetheless. I have sympathy in as much as he may have been doing it for a long time / others do it etc. but to appeal to that appears a little unfrank.

Personally I usually assess my own blame before pointing at others.

[rainman]

You probably can't clean your own toilet anymore, since you'd be taking work away from a potential maid that could be doing it.

[abdulrahman]

Thailand legislation about work should be really updated.It's past time too long already.

Will they do it?Of course not.TIT.

[johnefallis]

QUOTE (stevenl @ 2009-03-30 10:12:03) QUOTE (johnefallis @ 2009-03-29 13:17:05) QUOTE (stevenl @ 2009-03-25 17:03:06) QUOTE However, in order to obtain a work permit a person must be earning more than 60,000 baht a month (in Bangkok) and have registered capital of.....etc,etcThis is not correct. Also a volunteer, earning 0, can get a workpermit.

What is the fee for that work permit? I doubt that it is reciprocal.

If you have nothing serious to add except bashing other members, stay out of the discussion.

Why don't you point out to me what is "bashing" of other members? And to which members. You certainly can't be referring to my pointing out that even a work permit to work for free is not free, in fact expensive. So what is it?

Otherwise, I'll assume my point is made, you are wrong, and you will now have nothing to say.

What point has been made?

I point out that also a volunteer, earning 0, can get a work permit. According to you I am wrong, fine, just check with some of the more knowledgeable people here on this forum, who have also indicated that also a volunteer can (and normally must) have a workpermit.

When did I ever say you were wrong? Do you even speak English? I actually not only agreed with you twice, but I EMPHASIZED that the cost was not free, TWICE. You need to first not talk when you clearly having trouble understanding, second, not attack others because YOU don't understand the language, third, by all means, ask somebody, in fact "all those knowledgeable" people you refer to should be able to tell you how wrong you are, TWICE.

I can't believe you actually got something SO simple wrong AGAIN, and even as I pointed it out to you. Next time you want to attack somebody, at least have some slight clue what they are saying, or for that matter, what YOU are saying.

Cheese and RICE!!!!

Edited March 30, 2009 by johnefallis

[thaiwanderer]

You probably can't clean your own toilet anymore, since you'd be taking work away from a potential maid that could be doing it.

well aliens can't roll cigarettes by hand!

[thaiwanderer]

QUOTE (stevenl @ 2009-03-30 10:12:03) QUOTE (johnefallis @ 2009-03-29 13:17:05) QUOTE (stevenl @ 2009-03-25 17:03:06) QUOTE However, in order to obtain a work permit a person must be earning more than 60,000 baht a month (in Bangkok) and have registered capital of.....etc,etcThis is not correct. Also a volunteer, earning 0, can get a workpermit.

What is the fee for that work permit? I doubt that it is reciprocal.

If you have nothing serious to add except bashing other members, stay out of the discussion.

Why don't you point out to me what is "bashing" of other members? And to which members. You certainly can't be referring to my pointing out that even a work permit to work for free is not free, in fact expensive. So what is it?

Otherwise, I'll assume my point is made, you are wrong, and you will now have nothing to say.

What point has been made?

I point out that also a volunteer, earning 0, can get a work permit. According to you I am wrong, fine, just check with some of the more knowledgeable people here on this forum, who have also indicated that also a volunteer can (and normally must) have a workpermit.

When did I ever say you were wrong? Do you even speak English? I actually not only agreed with you twice, but I EMPHASIZED that the cost was not free, TWICE. You need to first not talk when you clearly having trouble understanding, second, not attack others because YOU don't understand the language, third, by all means, ask somebody, in fact "all those knowledgeable" people you refer to should be able to tell you how wrong you are, TWICE.

I can't believe you actually got something SO simple wrong AGAIN, and even as I pointed it out to you. Next time you want to attack somebody, at least have some slight clue what they are saying, or for that matter, what YOU are saying.

Cheese and RICE!!!!

yes but unfortunately its not entirely clear what point you aretrying to make - a work permit for a volunteer is not free. and?

[neverdie]

You can talk about this until the COWS come home but it aint gonna make one iota of difference.

Just go about your life & if you pisse in the pickles & you are doing anything that you shouldnt be, then ur ass is gonna be grass. No point crying about false arrests to the media, won't make a difference to the Thai judge.

[johnefallis]

QUOTE (stevenl @ 2009-03-30 10:12:03) QUOTE (johnefallis @ 2009-03-29 13:17:05) QUOTE (stevenl @ 2009-03-25 17:03:06) QUOTE However, in order to obtain a work permit a person must be earning more than 60,000 baht a month (in Bangkok) and have registered capital of.....etc,etcThis is not correct. Also a volunteer, earning 0, can get a workpermit.

What is the fee for that work permit? I doubt that it is reciprocal.

If you have nothing serious to add except bashing other members, stay out of the discussion.

Why don't you point out to me what is "bashing" of other members? And to which members. You certainly can't be referring to my pointing out that even a work permit to work for free is not free, in fact expensive. So what is it?

Otherwise, I'll assume my point is made, you are wrong, and you will now have nothing to say.

What point has been made?

I point out that also a volunteer, earning 0, can get a work permit. According to you I am wrong, fine, just check with some of the more knowledgeable people here on this forum, who have also indicated that also a volunteer can (and normally must) have a workpermit.

When did I ever say you were wrong? Do you even speak English? I actually not only agreed with you twice, but I EMPHASIZED that the cost was not free, TWICE. You need to first not talk when you clearly having trouble understanding, second, not attack others because YOU don't understand the language, third, by all means, ask somebody, in fact "all those knowledgeable" people you refer to should be able to tell you how wrong you are, TWICE.

I can't believe you actually got something SO simple wrong AGAIN, and even as I pointed it out to you. Next time you want to attack somebody, at least have some slight clue what they are saying, or for that matter, what YOU are saying.

Cheese and RICE!!!!

yes but unfortunately its not entirely clear what point you aretrying to make - a work permit for a volunteer is not free. and?

Really? Lets check. First part is a question: What is the cost of that work permit?(Of course referring to him saying that as a volunteer you can get a work permit) The second sentence states the doubt that it was reciprocal (referring directly to the price of the permit in relation to the wage of ZERO ). I could define each word for you, but you obviously have access to the internet, just look them up if necessary. You will find that my reference means that I doubted that because someone was working for nothing (volunteer), the price of the work permit was also nothing. Which it is not. I'll try to use smaller words than reciprocal in the future.

The sarcasm of it is that even when you volunteer and work for free, clearly for the benefit of Thailand, that Thailand still charges you for the work permit. Seems a little ridiculous.

If it wasn't clear to him, he certainly shouldn't be attacking me. Or attempting to condescend the second time around as if "I" was the stupid one. Let me explain it in simpler English. Do you see the part in bold print? The first part queries about the price of the work permit that is required for somebody working as a voluteer, thereby pointing out the second part that emphasizes that it is not free.

The following posts requested specifics about his attack, still no direct response, just more evidence he didn't understand. Sorry, I didn't know I had draw diagrams to explain the English language to avoid unprovoked attacks. I'm more than happy to banter, even aggresively, with anyone, the only requirement is that they have some comprehension of the language.

I'm half asleep now, so I hope that is clear enough.

[Barack]

Looks like he got caught managing his own investment properities and somebody (obviously not his friend) blew the whistle on him. He should have known better. Example, farang bar or business owners use Thai managers and try to keep a low profile. He doesn't have my sympathy.

[torrenova]

Just on the owning more than 1 condo and owning investment issues.

Owning more than 1 condo does not mean you require a WP. Neither does owning a bar, guest house, hotel or land through a company. Anything in fact.

The law is very poorly drafted and they have buffoons to interpret it in whatever way they see fit (read: whatever way makes them the most money or gives them the most power).

No-one is suggesting that cleaning your own car or dealing with your condo is actually work in the true sense but my defence would be as follows:

If the understanding is that the law is there to protect jobs for Thais, then as I am not being paid, would a Thai do the "job" I am doing for no reward ? Additionally, there is no job for a Thai to do. Either I do it for no reward or it does not get done.

As stated in the first report of this incident, it appears that someone has it in for this guy. Not paying maintenance fees for condos is normal practice for many Thais. I guess he has pissed some Thai guy off.

[TonyMontana]

This thread makes me worried.

Spending my hard earned cash is hard work - do I need a work permit now?

Since I do tell the maid how to clean - the chef what to cook - the nanny how to treat my babies - the gardener how to organize the garden - That might mean that I am in need of a work permit too, after all I am supervising them all.(=work permit?)

Or, maybe I'll just move back to Philippines, where I used to live - not that its any better there, but at least there is less Tea money involved coz' of lower salaries and not as spoiled goverment officials as here.

Don't get me wrong, I love and enjoy my life here - but every year it just seems to be an increasing number of people that are taking the money for granted.

[thaiwanderer]

Really? Lets check. First part is a question: What is the cost of that work permit?(Of course referring to him saying that as a volunteer you can get a work permit) The second sentence states the doubt that it was reciprocal (referring directly to the price of the permit in relation to the wage of ZERO ). I could define each word for you, but you obviously have access to the internet, just look them up if necessary. You will find that my reference means that I doubted that because someone was working for nothing (volunteer), the price of the work permit was also nothing. Which it is not. I'll try to use smaller words than reciprocal in the future.

The sarcasm of it is that even when you volunteer and work for free, clearly for the benefit of Thailand, that Thailand still charges you for the work permit. Seems a little ridiculous.

If it wasn't clear to him, he certainly shouldn't be attacking me. Or attempting to condescend the second time around as if "I" was the stupid one. Let me explain it in simpler English. Do you see the part in bold print? The first part queries about the price of the work permit that is required for somebody working as a voluteer, thereby pointing out the second part that emphasizes that it is not free.

The following posts requested specifics about his attack, still no direct response, just more evidence he didn't understand. Sorry, I didn't know I had draw diagrams to explain the English language to avoid unprovoked attacks. I'm more than happy to banter, even aggresively, with anyone, the only requirement is that they have some comprehension of the language.

I'm half asleep now, so I hope that is clear enough.

Well despite english not being my first language i had suspected your post may have been implying that there was something wrong with a fee being applicable to a volunteer's work permit, but i did not want to assume that as you are obviously working on a much higher level than me. So i now know you think it ridiculous so i can rest easy. I had thought your scatter gun angry and inane posts in this thread betrayed a latent anger and low self esteem, but i may have been too hasty in that assessment afterall.

Anyway back on topic - as for Mr Nixon I suspect we may not be hearing (in the press) how his case progresses or his exact role, depending on whether he receives and accepts any good advice.

[stevenl]

When did I ever say you were wrong?

in fact "all those knowledgeable" people you refer to should be able to tell you how wrong you are, TWICE

Otherwise, I'll assume my point is made, you are wrong, and you will now have nothing to say.

Here I have you saying, twice, that I was wrong.

Sorry, I didn't know I had draw diagrams to explain the English language to avoid unprovoked attacks.

LOL

"I'm more than happy to banter, even aggresively," Yes, you have made that quite clear.

Edited March 31, 2009 by stevenl

[stevenl]

If the understanding is that the law is there to protect jobs for Thais, then as I am not being paid, would a Thai do the "job" I am doing for no reward ? Additionally, there is no job for a Thai to do. Either I do it for no reward or it does not get done.

Being paid or not really is not the issue. As already mentioned earlier in the thread, also for volunteer work a work permit is required, whether the job gets done without the volunteer is a different story, and not important at all with regards to the work permit issue.

Not paying maintenance fees for condos is normal practice for many Thais. I guess he has pissed some Thai guy off.

Yes, that happened for sure. And since he did give the guy an opening to get him, he is in deep shit now.

[Gary A]

If there is anything to be learned from this, it is that if you upset anyone with connections, you are going to lose. That's just the way it is.

I'm not totally sure about his, but I think tax on rentals is a flat 12 percent. I don't know any farangs who pay that tax. I do know several farangs who own a number of condos for rent. They have been left alone but I can assure you that if they decide to make waves for any reason they will be in the same situation that this guy is in.

The thousands of farangs who own a home through illegal Thai companies are in the same situation. So far the government has been content to collect the tax returns and allow things to remain as they are.

[johnefallis]

Really? Lets check. First part is...

...I'm half asleep now, so I hope that is clear enough.

Well despite english not being my first language i had suspected your post may have been implying that there was something wrong with a fee being applicable to a volunteer's work permit, but i did not want to assume that as you are obviously working on a much higher level than me. So i now know you think it ridiculous so i can rest easy. I had thought your scatter gun angry and inane posts in this thread betrayed a latent anger and low self esteem, but i may have been too hasty in that assessment afterall.

Anyway back on topic - as for Mr Nixon I suspect we may not be hearing (in the press) how his case progresses or his exact role, depending on whether he receives and accepts any good advice.

Excellent, back on topic. My point was never going to make through to him anyway.

I sympathize with anyone, especially farang, that is doing anything that is directly or indirectly beneficial to Thailand, or other people in general. Especially when having to fight against bureacracy, it seems, every step of the way. Whether this man is guilty of anything or not is less important than the fact that the policies and laws are in need of desperate changes. Sticking together is the time proven method of causing change.

[JustinCredible]

THAIVISA: how about a legal opinion on this???

We all know volunteer work is illegal here without a WP. However, what constitutes work?

For example, food preparation is a job reserved for Thai people whether paid or volunteer. I understand that. But adding some Nam Plaa to my bowl of Kwiitiyo is also food preparation. Can I be arrested for this?

Technically, from a legal perspective the way the law is written I believe the answer is "yes"

Any foreigner opening a bottle of beer by himself (whether he is paid or unpaid) is engaging in drinks preparation and is also subject to arrest depending on how the law is interpreted because he is working and doing a job reserved for Thais.

Until I hear otherwise from a lawyer or someone who can explain the law, I think you "probably" won't have problems being a kammagan unless you have an enemy but you "may" be breaking the law because the law is very unclear and if you have an enemy you very obviously can be subject to arrest and the expense of hiring a lawyer. TIT

I guess that "Moderating" a "Forum" would be classed as working as well. Best you guys don't upset us too much.....