Canadian Condo Owner Claims False Arrest

[golfnut]

However, in order to obtain a work permit a person must be earning more than 60,000 baht a month (in Bangkok) and have registered capital of.....etc,etc

And just where did you pick up that tidbit of misinformation? Explain please.

I do not know about that I called the labor department and they said they would not issue a work permit to a foreigner to be a Juristic person manager because no contract no money not an employee etc.

[golfnut]

Usuually nobody owns five condos to use them for him self. I guess he rented 4 condos and got some extra income. This consider under "working" wihout work permit, specially if he signs any bills or rental agreements.

Sorry but I dont think you read the article as he was arrested for being the juristic person manager not for operating a rental business.

[Maestro]

Was he really the juristic person manager? I thought it was not clear from the article in what capacity he acted as a representative of some other condo owners:

– juristic person manager, or

– committee member, or

– voting as proxy holder for other condo owners at a general meeting?

Has this question been clarified conclusively?

--

Maestro

[thaiwanderer]

I will leave aside discussion of the rights or wrongs of foreign investment, laws affecting foreigners etc. (for the moment!).

The precise role he served and the reason for the arrest are not at all clear from the PG report. It is impossible for him to be a 'juristic person' of the others in the way the report suggests. He might be an officer or representative of a 'juristic person', the only 'juristic person' per se he can be is his ordinary self Mr. Nixon.

Unless he is merely a personal (in his own name) owner occupier of a single unit, he could very easily find himself in a position in which he requires a work permit (yes its due to the wide wording of the labour laws which are sparodically enforced but I will leave general discussion of the whys and wherefores of that to to the side for the moment).

The other possibilities are as follows (not all mutually exclusive):-

1. He owns the units by way of a company (thai or foreign) - any actions by him as director etc. of such a company is 'work'

2. He owns the units in his personal name - pretty much any action he takes in managing this investment would be 'work'

3. He acts as a proxy for owner/s of other units in casting their votes (he can only be a proxy for 3 other units) - 'work'

4. He is on the Condominium Corporate Board - 'work'

5. He is the Condominium Corporate Board Chairman / Vice Chairman - 'work'

6. He is the Condominium Manager - 'work'

(much of this is not normally a problem but in his case he has got into a dispute so the door knock has come)

Interestingly the maximum penalty for working without a work permit is 5 years imprisonment for the Employee and only a fine for the Employer.

Also IIRC if he is convicted of this he may be forced to dispose of the units (and depending on the circumstances barred from purchasing another condominium unit anywhere in Thailand?)- and with a forced disposal at the very least the monetary price will of course suffer.

The PG report talks of his merely wishing to act as a safety net for the common interests of the joint owners - without acknowledging his own 5 votes, the votes of the other joint owners and the protections afforded by the condominium acts.

Its all well and good standing up for your rights but before you start throwing stones.........

as above its not at all clear, at the very least poor reporting by PG - given the comments attributed to him the 'representative' role mentioned in the report and 'protecting' the condo owners interests would appear to align with one or more of the positions described in 3-5 above (i doubt he is the Condominium Manager)

as to what he was originally arrested for that may be immaterial now as the various and multiple breaches he may be in will likely be looked at very closely now

[CosmicSurfer]

Just read this line on the Department of Employment, Thailand site:-

1. Definition

“Alien” means a natural person who is not of Thai nationality;

“ Work ” means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

"SPECIAL ALERT"

Notice to all ThaiVisa Posters !

Pursuant to the above definition of the term "WORK", and upon deep reflection and consideration, it has therefore been decide and ordered that ALL posters on the ThaiVisa Web Board are considered to be employees of ThaiVisa.com, and by exerting energy and their superior logical knowledge by posting their thoughtful and considered comments (providing Content to ThaiVisa.com), have therefore been WORKING illegally in Thailand, without the appropriate Work Permit.

All ThaiVisa posters must either leave Thailand within the next 24 hours (from when their FIRST post was made) or be subject to immediate deportation.

In lieu of deportation, affected foreigners may deposit the appropriate Fee at the nearest Ministry of Labor office.

*** Further to this announcement, All Foreigners are put on Notice that they MUST immediately cease "exerting energy and their superior logical knowledge" even when in the confines of their homes, explaining 'life' to their wives or significant others, or helping their children with their homework, or when conversing with other Foreigners or Thai persons, in Private or in Public, as this too can be designated as "WORK". The damage to "National Security" by participating in this work is self-evident, and the appropriate action will necessarily follow.

"As it has been written, So it shall be done!"

######################################

A Belated April-Fool,

CS

Edited April 5, 2009 by CosmicSurfer

[hazz]

Now I know why they have those people open the doors for you at the hotels and all those taxi drivers waiting outside.

after all you would not want your customers arrested for opening doors and walking down the street

[paperwerks]

Now I know why they have those people open the doors for you at the hotels and all those taxi drivers waiting outside.

after all you would not want your customers arrested for opening doors and walking down the street

same same for the guy working in the mens room who wants to massage your neck while you pee. He is there to assist you in taking it out to pee which is considered work in thailand and can lead to arrest.

[worldfun]

finally this thread starts to make a bit of sense LOL

[torrenova]

Now I know why they have those people open the doors for you at the hotels and all those taxi drivers waiting outside.

after all you would not want your customers arrested for opening doors and walking down the street

same same for the guy working in the mens room who wants to massage your neck while you pee. He is there to assist you in taking it out to pee which is considered work in thailand and can lead to arrest.

Indeed, the law is so crass that a case making that exact point could possibly be made.

Presumably you taking your own money out to tip him would result in arrest as well.

[Abrak]

I know about this story quite well being one of the co-owners. In fact as I voted for him to be JP and we didnt offer him a contract with pay to enable him to obtain a work permit or even imply that he needed one I feel that we share at least as much responsibility as him for any blame especially as we benefited from the work at his expense. I even suggested to the management committee that we pay his legal fees but was told it was a private matter and so we could not.

This in itself I thought was interesting in that it showed the intent of the law which is to prosecute the individual - presumably this prosecution (and punishment) would be based on the belief that he had benefited from the work in some shape or form. The law is vague for obvious reasons - say if the individual was working for an offshore company with remuneration based offshore, it might be difficult to prove but he would certainly have broken the law. The JP clearly has not broken the underlying spirit of the law, and to the extent he has, the co-owners should be held jointly responsible.

Regarding his 5 condos - none of them have been rented out. I think in any case rentals would be regarded as unearned income, like dividend as the neither require 'effort' or 'expertise' to acquire. Clearly receiving rentals and not paying tax is illegal.

Incidentally the dispute with the developer and him is incredibly trivial. The developer believes he is not required to pay CAM fees until after the implementation of the new law 2008. Other co-owners disagree and believe all co-owners must pay CAM fees equally. The developer has sold a number of units and wishes for the JP to sign off on them as 'debt free' - to the extent he wont, they seem prepared to charge him on one charge or another regularly about once a month (shouting at an employee I think was the latest). However, if he does sign them as debt free other co-owners have made it clear to him they will personally sue him for the CAM payable that he has just signed as not existing. It is not really his suit to settle and they should know that but they are apparently extremely stupid and cant see when they are not acting in there own best interests.

(Actually to be fair to them their argument is a little more sophisticated than that - at one stage they rewrote the by laws of the condo to free the developer of CAM fees and then registered them at the land office without any vote (they were JP at the time). I still find it difficult to believe that anyone can rewrite the by laws to their own advantage at the expense of other co-owners - it would make a farce of the underlying Act.

[wpcoe]

Sorry to revive such an old thread, but I'm wondering what the outcome was for Mr. Nixon. What happened in the end?

[NewlyMintedThai]

Yet someone in another thread questioned why a long-term resident would ever want to become a Thai citizen. Answer one: to put the possibility of such problems out of your mind forever.

[genobkk]

he was formally charged for working without a work permit

as a member of our condominium committee i find this a little disturbing.

i'm sure there are other thaivisa members who serve on condo committees.

would it be possible to have some clarification from one of the law firms sponsoring thaivisa as to whether committee membership constitutes work and whether we are breaking the law?

I would love to see this stuff on CNBC, CNN, etc, but they seem never to report any of this stuff!!! I never would live in Phuket any way, it run by gangsters but no one says this stuff no one warns toursit traveling here of the double charges and the jet sky scams, the property scams. if you are NOT thai and have an issue with a Thai you will lose, oget get out of the country or killed....that is the fact.

[Briggsy]

Foriegn footballers in the UK must have a work permit! Is football 'work'? Work permit laws are the same all over the world.

Erm I think you missed something.. 'Professional' footballers of course would need a work permit, goes without saying.. But a footballer who does this without pay or renumeration ?? I dont think they need any work permit !!

Its not the same the world over.. Most of the world has laws that have a tiny amount of sense to them. If they are nonsensical they get challenged in a court and eventually the high courts, case law gets defined, the grey areas get removed. Thailand however likes grey areas, it allows people with money to break the laws with impunity by paying the police and the police like it as it pays thier wages. Hence there is no incentive for either the rich, or the powers in control, to change it. The loser is of course the majority of 'little people' without the money or clout to use corruption to their advantage.

+1000

[cmexpat999]

some further clarifications apparent in the updated report - he had an appointment with them - would be interesting to find out if he continued in the position after he was on notice or is he just moaning about the original 'injustice'?

now looks like the aggrieved other party is one of the other condo owners who hasn't paid / disputes the fees (may or may not be the developer etc.)

farang condo owners' positions can be protected without a farang being the JP so he's a bit ahead of himself

his comments about that the thai government should tell farangs clearly rather than arresting them is infantile - he knew (or should have known) what he was doing - its not even as if he is a bored retiree with only one unit he owns and occupies and has merely got involved a little with the committee (and even then would be his own look out) - he takes no responsibility for what has happened even though it is entirely his own fault

the 'false arrest' headline is still inaccurate even against what he claims, suggest 'Canadian blames everyone else for his own actions'

Anyhow sterling work by the PG to point out that laws differ in different countries

There are often cases in which "aliens" are arrested in Thailand for doing work which would not be considered illegal for foreigners without work permits in other countries.

Always seems to be those individuals that want to impose their 1st world countries ethics and morals in the LOS. If you really care about this country and it's people you could at least try to be a little concerned over the many injustices that go on here, whether its between expats/thais or thais/thais. Rather than blame this guy, tell it like it reads unless you know something the rest of us don't this is a pretty simple case of extortion, at best. I mean come on we have a situation here that can be pulled on any one of us expats here, for merely painting your house.

If had invested in 5 of those condos, (and if they are the blue canyon condos those are a pretty penny).. I would want some pull on that committee myself, I am also a committe member on several condos I own, dont really participate but it keeps me informed. Been living here 18 years never occurred to me to get a second and third work permit to participate on those committees, which im not even sure is possible. I have dozens of friends or at least friends of friends that are participating similarily here on committees whether they be condos, NGOs, charities, or sport organizations none i know of have workpermits for that purpose.

Whether he is the JP or not is non the matter, if this guy was the deciding vote on this committee we would see the same injustice. My guess is this article has been written as he has decided to out this into the media because he believes he has done nothing wrong and this is the only way he can protect his investment and for that matter himself. I figure this guy isn't going down without a fight, he would have turn tailed along time ago before it got to this stage. This looks like another bullet solution, I think he is lucky to not be lying face down with lead poisoning by now.

I think this is a chance for logical expats to take a bit of a stance in this forum. Granted there is limited knowledge here, but im sure it will all come out soon. My guess is he will take it as far as it will go in the media, this is what might be keeping him alive.

Lets get some facts on this one before we start cutting this guy up, from what i have read so far it sounds like he been railroaded.

Never know one day you might actually be able to invest here without looking over your shoulder for a stray bullet or a jail sentence.

wise words. Dont mess with powerful Thais you will get slaughtered unless you also have a few powerful thais on your side. I dont mean killed I mean they will find a way to get you whatever the so called law says.

[moe666]

A similar thing happen to a friend in Chiang mai. Some of the condo owners started complaining about things not being done and they where paying the fees, guess what immigration showed up and started checking visas, no one arrested.