Agricultural Permaculture / Forest Gardening

[jandtaa]

Hi folks 

There's some interesting reading on permaculture I have uploaded here jandtaas docs - permaculture

This is a growing collection and I upload on a regular basis so keep an eye out. Also check out this thread we might be abl to get it moved here at some point in time.forest garden 

cheers Jandtaa

[Gerontion]

Thanks for those. I'll have a read later. The link doesn't seem to work, though (it took me to my own scribd account). Try http://www.scribd.com/jandtaa

[jandtaa]

Hi Gerontion welcome to the organic forum  !!

Thanks for pointing out the link problem ( I think it is because you also have a scribd account !! the start of the address I usually post is "my-docs" so it's something I'll look into. I usually use this because it takes people direct and as the site can be painfully slow at times it just saves a bit of time )

Do you have any useful info in your account to share re organics ?? Please feel free to share if you do  !!

cheers for now J

[Gerontion]

Sadly, no. I know less than nothing, but I'm - or will be - learning. I'm in the early stages of building an adobe house so once I get that done, I'll be on to the gardening.

[Smithson]

I heard an interview with a permaculture guru who said "We need to change the way we think - what we regard as waste products we need to see as resources".

[Lickey]

I would think our 40 rai hillside farm would be ideal to make a catchment lake with swales running off 2 ways, rice straw/husks/coconut husks/all kinds of animal crap is available cheaply, loads of leaves from mango tamarind banana kanoon available on the farm, this would of course attract predators, frog lizzards beetles ect,

What we worry about is the snakes, ive seen 6 on the farm in 2.5 years, and a cobra yesterday on the road outside the farm, im thinking that a lush green swale bank will attract snakes? any thoughts on this please?

Pathways,access routes will be kept clean by pulling out the tufts and throwing under the fruit trees, ,

One more question, i saw DR Treeloves post about pruning mango trees, now because of the thick foilage, do you put the prunings round the base of the tree for mulch, does the same apply for all fruit trees? What the Mrs does is, pays somebody to prune the trees, they drag the waste into a heap and leave it, then to clear up the heap, she tells the local charcoal man its all free if he burns the leftovers,

But im thinking perhaps put the tamarind prunings under a mango & vice versa, it seems the tamarind is not a N fixing tree, whereas the mango is, so help please,

Thanks, Lickey,,

[jandtaa]

Hi Lickey

In the Geoff Lawton DVD extras section A guy talks about pintoi peanut which he uses in his maintained orchard to keep the area safe for his kids and snake free .Its a very low growing legume that can be whacked back or mown apparently . Don't no whether it's available out here ? Anyone any experience ?? Is it to invasive?? seems to be recommended for use under mango etc..

here's a link  perrenial peanut

cheers J

[Foreverford]

Forestgardener,you dont describe your land,are you going to extend from an already wooded area or try to establish an oasis in a normal farming type area?

Your aim is achievable ,but it will require lots of work. You will have to establish a self contained and maintaining micro-climate.

If you look about you will find these environments (apart from mountain forests) are centred around water,either running (stream) or standing (lake or pond) so that is probably your starting point.

Soil quality is not so important (unless its saline inundated) as soil improvement is part of the overall scheme.

As said water is the number one requirement to provide moisture and humidity for your micro climate.

In most cases I would eliminate all weeds and give the area a good deep ploughing (with good management it should be the last time you would ever need to plough).

Then comes tonnes and tonnes of animal manure (anything you can source ,from elephant poo to chicken droppings) and spread over the whole area.

On top of this goes truck loads of rice waste (straw or shells) compost, forest litter etc.

If its the wet season things will progress on their own ,if it is the dry then the sprinklers come into play with copious amounts of water. At this stage you are providing the environment for the micro-organisms to go to work and multiply ,all the time improving the soil structure.

Now is time to plant your largest trees and get them established, they probably need 3-4 years start before the other perrenials go in. A few chickens and ducks can be let loose on the block,their scratching and pooing is all part of the process.

Off course they are fenced out of your garden sections which can be established in the first year, but let back in when you have harvested.

If things are occurring as they should you should not have to cultivate ,just plant through the straw and litter.

Bananas ,coconuts etc can be planted in the initial planting. so within 2 years you should be eating veggies from your garden, bananas fish from the pond chicken and duck eggs and meat. the nuts and other fruit will come in later on.

Because of the higher rate of decomposition in the tropical climate it will be necessary to introduce more manure and litter at intervals ,this is best acquired and stocked in heaps when it is cheap and plentiful.

Hart and the father of permaculture Bill Mollison perfected their art in temperate climates ,Mollison is a fellow Tasmanian ,but the basics are pretty much the same,its just the species and the special care they may require differ for our tropical conditions.

It is no rocket science ,all you need to do is provide the right conditions , plan your tree spacings to suit growth and shade and all other things will happen naturally.

I wish you all the luck in your endeavour ,I wish I were young enough to do it again.

There are about 2 rai of native forest already so i´m lucky. There i can start plant the different layers and get the practical experiense that i need. Then i stick to your suggestion. Start with largest trees to get them established. I also need to dig a deep pond and some swales in the area. But now i have a problem.

Should i fill the old ricefields with soil from the ponds ore not?

My plan was to do that but i hear some people saying to me not to do. Thats because they collect water that are so importent to have. It would be great to hear from more about this so i dont do anything stupid here.

If you get into your pond and the earth has a lot of clay you may want to consider it for building a road or some other type of structural work instead of adding it to your fields. Also find out if your rice fields flood in the rainy season. Your spoils from the pond could be used to isolate certain sections with levees to try and prevent flooding. I don't think anyone said anything about coconut trees on your plot and it is probably so obvious no one said it or I missed it. the production of coconuts is truly unbelieveable here in Buri Ram and should be the same there. Good luck.

[jandtaa]

 

What we worry about is the snakes, ive seen 6 on the farm in 2.5 years, and a cobra yesterday on the road outside the farm, im thinking that a lush green swale bank will attract snakes? any thoughts on this please?

Thanks, Lickey,,

Hi Lickey 

Saw my first snake out on my plot this morning ! only about a foot long and disappeared fairly fast . Managed to identify it from this site as a harmless bronzeback. It's a useful site as it also has the name in Thai script and good photos. snakes of Thailand poisonous and non poisonous

Cheers mate J

[Shokdee]

Don't no whether it's available out here ? Anyone any experience ?? Is it to invasive?? seems to be recommended for use under mango etc..

Yes it is available, used as a ground cover under trees. Always look under trees for the what's growing there. At a PTT station near Phattulung it was growing under the various trees they'd planted, at a nursery on Samui growing in some of the pots, and so on. Memorize what it looks like and you'll find it many places! Grows well even in deep shade.

[jandtaa]

cheers Shokdee

Yeah it always pays to keep your eyes open . Actually spotted some growing on the central reservation up in town on my way to the airport last week. I'll try and get hold of some seed when I get back! I reckon this would be just the job for under your fruit trees Lickey what do you reckon ?? Stolons spread up to a metre a year and it is a legume so quick to establish and the chickens like it apparently etc..

" thua lisong tao " is the Thai name 

 

tropical forages

cheers J

[sunsamourai]

looks like a marvellous plant ! Looks good, usefull, and so fresh !

As a leguminosae, I guess it would help capture azote (nitrats) into the ground, woudln't it ? If so, I'd be interested to get hold on a few bags of seeds

Plz tell me if you know of any local provider before next rainy season !

++ ^^

Edited April 26, 2009 by sunsamourai

[Working Joe]

Hi Everyone,

I'm from Singapore and have been interested in Permaculture/Forest Gardening for a number of years already. I stumbled onto this section of the Thaivisa forum one day and was so heartened to see many members actually practising Permaculture in Thailand. This is indeed a valuable storehouse of information and great place for exchange of ideas.

As my first post in this section, I'd like to contribute two links:

www.cd3wd.com - a monster (13GB) collection of information relevant to permaculturists

www.journeytoforever.org - I really admire these folks. Good info and links here.

[kanomk2]

There is a Permaculture design course at [Panya Project: Permaculture, Natural Building and Community Living in Northern Thailand] Permaculture Design Course July 2010 Next course in July '10

You can become a certified designer and consultant.

[Paul123456]

Good luck with the forest garden and to everyone else.

I was hoping to start on something similar, but so far no luck.

We have a good bit of land, surrounded by a Karen village that does not use chemicals nor slash and burn.

But, I have no money at the moment, and can't build or do anything with the land, and whilst we are not there, other people from outside come onto the property and chop down the trees and hunt the remaining animals on it.

And, my wife is concerned that in this area, unless we chop down all the trees and have "normal" farming on the land, the government will take the land off us and incorporate it into the nearby national park.

So for me, I am giving up this round and that bit of land. I will go make some money first and come back for another attempt somewhere else.

:-)

[wjthornton]

This may be off topic, in which case I hope the moderator will move it and/or tell me where it should go. I'm looking for a good location to buy some land to practice organic farming based on permaculture and relaxed biodynamics.

I've been living in thailand and gardening according to permaculture principles (Mollison) since 1989. The 50 rai in Plok went to the ex-wife and I'm looking now for a new site to buy a few rai for my new Thai family. I think neighbors make a huge difference. It is hard to go organic when you are surrounded by big farms using a lot of chemicals.

I know people are doing good work in Chiang Mai, but my lungs can't handle the air quality up north. I'm ready to move anywhere in Thailand with good air and water quality with good neighbors where I can get a few rai at a reasonable price that isn't too remove from an airport and colleges where I might teach a bit of English when I get bored (<= 1 million baht per rai). Any suggestions?

[Allgeier]

Here a free pdf Childrenbook about Permaculture:

http://www.peakprosperity.com/wsidblog/93441/farmer-phil%E2%80%99s-permaculture-original-permaculture-children%E2%80%99s-book

[drtreelove]

To member Pogust; regarding your PM to me about permaculture agroforestry. This is the pinned discussion that I thought you would be interested in. I encourage you to post your questions here, because there are other members who may contribute who have more experience with this subject than I do.