10,000 Police, Soldiers, Security Officials Deployed To Keep Security At Government House

[Plus]

Therefore just make it easier for yourself, and finally admit that you are ultra-conservative. No harm in doing that,

Plus ain't some fanatical right wing fundamentalist neo con. He likes Soi Cowboy just like normal people do.

Just like normal people. I woudln't use "Dirty old man of Nana" as a signature.

[kurtgruen]

That is also damaging the democracy.

I am still waiting for your apology accusing me of spreading "nonsense propaganda". I have given you clear evidence that there were weapons found in a Dhamma Army truck.

I guess, you will just have to slap him with your glove and challenge him to a duel ;-)

[Plus]

Somehow, I don't picture you as one who is fighting for the poor masses

No, justanothertosser might really believe he is fighting for poor masses, but you know how it goes, the masses are too stupid to fight for themselves, so they need educated revolotionaries to lead them and free them and govern them and educate them. That's where the likes of JAT come in - the new generation of leaders. The old elites must go, make space for the new ones.

That's what Thaksin is preaching, too. Everybody wants to lead of the poor, they've got a long line.

Yesterday they registered Thai Socialist Party, with Jakrapop's aide as a secretary general. Another outfit to save the poor from tiranny.

Interestingly, when the Nation journo was giving a write up on socialist history in Thailand he completely forgot to mention Giles. What an insult!

Giles could have saved the poor long ago, he only they'd listen to him. Too stupid, I guess.

[Plus]

Dharma Army truck.

Is there any chance that it was used by PAD guards, and not by Dharma Army grannies from Santi Asoke? That woudl explain the weapons, woudln't it?

[justanothercybertosser]

Just proves that you haven't got a clue about what I am talking about, accusing me of using confusing or illogical arguments in an attempt to deceive. I'm about as plain as you can get, for anyone who has a brain (and I don't mean someone who has swallowed a dictionary ;-)

I have been a socialist since my teens. I have been a Union Member since my teens and I have been a social activist since my teens. I am surprised, that you don't see one of the fastest ways to socialism in this country (or maybe you see it and that is why you are arguing so hard, to stop things from moving in that direction) Somehow, I don't picture you as one who is fighting for the poor masses, but maybe I just don't understand you either.

And after all that - you still have no clue about socialist theory...

The poor "masses", my friend, are not represented in the PAD at all. They are almost all represented by the Red Shirts (and admittedly - Thaksin is a more than unlikely representative of those aspirations).

But all that this little debate brings us back to my point that you are meddling in things way over your head. You refer to some of the PAD's leaders and protesters have a background in the socialist movements of the 70's. So do many in the Red Shirts, people such as Dr. Weng, Prof. Jaran Ditthapichai, and many other sub-leaders and ordinary protesters. Other well known people that have strong socialist roots, but are not part of the Red Shirts are highly critical of PAD, people such as the historian Thongchai Winichakul.

I would suggest to converse with them about socialist theory and practice in Thailand, instead of just stupendously repeating what PAD throws into the wind. You may learn something, and then be able to make up your mind.

Things are a lot more complex than "i am a socialist, and therefore support the PAD". That view makes you nothing but a pawn.

[justanothercybertosser]

Somehow, I don't picture you as one who is fighting for the poor masses

No, justanothertosser might really believe he is fighting for poor masses,

And now we are back at your reading problem.

I have clearly stated that this is a fight for Thais alone to decide over their political future, and not for us foreigners to meddle in.

The only thing i am "fighting" for here is that a resemblance of historical and political accuracy is kept in the presentation of the different views. Which is difficult enough when faced with such an enormous amount of distortions, omissions and sophisms, and pure brainfarts.

[Old Man River]

These are the real working people of Thailand.

The real working people of Thailand. I have seen the buses that have brought them into Bangkok to do the work they are being paid for.

[kurtgruen]

Somehow, I don't picture you as one who is fighting for the poor masses

No, justanothertosser might really believe he is fighting for poor masses, but you know how it goes, the masses are too stupid to fight for themselves, so they need educated revolotionaries to lead them and free them and govern them and educate them. That's where the likes of JAT come in - the new generation of leaders. The old elites must go, make space for the new ones.

That's what Thaksin is preaching, too. Everybody wants to lead of the poor, they've got a long line.

Yesterday they registered Thai Socialist Party, with Jakrapop's aide as a secretary general. Another outfit to save the poor from tiranny.

Interestingly, when the Nation journo was giving a write up on socialist history in Thailand he completely forgot to mention Giles. What an insult!

Giles could have saved the poor long ago, he only they'd listen to him. Too stupid, I guess.

Or maybe he didn't forget about Giles Ungpakorn, maybe it was just inconvenient to remember;-)

[Thai at Heart]

I think if you asked the assembled crowd of the PAD during their protest whether they believed they were socialist, you may have not got out of the gates in one piece.

One of the most major issues they had was the apparent use of tax payer money to fund development into Isaan. Now it may well have been corrupted along the way, but Sondhi was loud and proud about the fact that "his people" (the middle class) felt they were being taxed to the hilt and the money was being wasted up country. Thaksin was an abomination by stating that those who didn't vote for him wouldn't get access to the funds also.

We can all argue about the rights and wrongs of how it was spent, and whether any of it got siphoned off along the way, but TRT hardly has a monopoly on that. I do not see that protesting about spending money up country reconciles itself with any aspect of socialism. The various statements made about who should have a greater or lesser say in the country, and the endless discussion about "New Politics" proves to me that even though there may have been a proclaimed "socialist" within the PAD ranks, that their protests had absolutely nothing to do with spreading the wealth.

I do not see how the PAD's protests could in any way give any hope for the growth of socialism in this country. The whole system in the country is set up to prevent farmers acting as a collective and gaining any bargaining power through grouping together. The repeated collective voting for TRT of the North East gave Bangkok the heebeejeebies and showed that by collectivising the rural vote, the middle class would have their influence reduced. The genie was out of the bottle, and PAD and the army have tried to put it back in. Newin and the Dems had better deliver for the people in the whole country and Isaan , or they may well be in trouble soon. When times get worse and the poor feel poorer, they don't care who delivers, just so long as it is delivered.

If this protest fails, I doubt it will be the last. The anti will be ramped further and further up until something will break. It may be the current government. If it happens, I hope that is all that falls. There is a groundswell of anger out there, but the UDD haven't managed to get organised or maybe it is insufficient in number right now so the status quo will probably stay for the time being.

That doesn't mean that Thaksin probably won't have another go sometime soon if this doesn't work.

[kurtgruen]

Somehow, I don't picture you as one who is fighting for the poor masses

No, justanothertosser might really believe he is fighting for poor masses,

And now we are back at your reading problem.

I have clearly stated that this is a fight for Thais alone to decide over their political future, and not for us foreigners to meddle in.

The only thing i am "fighting" for here is that a resemblance of historical and political accuracy is kept in the presentation of the different views. Which is difficult enough when faced with such an enormous amount of distortions, omissions and sophisms, and pure brainfarts.

If that is really the only thing you are fighting for, I applaud you. History is often written (and distorted or changed), by the victors, I think we both agree on that. There are also many historians, who hold a different perspective from one another, regarding the same event. We could take about the different views of "Thai Historians" for days, and this may be a good topic for another forum ;-)

As for the statement, that us foreigners shouldn't meddle in Thai politics, I strongly disagree. Why should we leave all the meddling to the US and Captitalists?

I am a Resident of Thailand. Maybe not for long, if my views get me kicked out one day, but those are choices and consequences, I am willing to live with, if they happen. I believe, that being a resident, gives me the right to care about this country and it's people. Never mind being a resident...I believe that being a caring human being, gives me the right to offer help and/or advise to anyone, who is willing to receive it.

[animatic]

Re. Chamlong - why would anyone dismiss his very public life as Bangkok Governor, leader of Phalang Dharma party, and leader of Santi Asoke sect, and instead define the man by actions thirty years ago no one remembers anymore?

From what I know, our government at least 10 years ago did not approve that Santi Asoke.

Ask any monk and see how they say.

Actually it's the other way round.

Sani Asoke doesn't approve of the majority of monks

as not being true to Budhisim.

But blames the leadership not the individuals.

[Koo82]

University students are with the reds:

[Insight]

Koo, now you are taking the p!ss!

[sriracha john]

University students are with the reds:

In fact, everyone that wears glasses OR has black hair OR wears a watch is "with the Reds"....

[animatic]

University students are with the reds:

In fact, everyone that wears glasses OR has black hair OR wears a watch is "with the Reds"....

Katoey Elvis Impersonators are with the Reds.

[animatic]

Tampons are also with the reds on a monthly basis.

[DaleBlue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnFPhExOTw

I hope the 2 guys (one holding the gun, one holding the photo) surrender themselves to the police for protection. Else, if the Red catch them first, I am sure they will not live another day.

[Sunderland]

University students are with the reds:

Even Elton John's love child is one of the reds now ...

Good old cuckoo!

[Sunderland]

Thailand WILL be hit harder than it should be because it screwed the two biggest assets it had - exports/imports and tourism - by closing its airport and because it is socially the least well equipped place to deal with tough times.

Experts in this forum don't see that. They say no one remembers PAD anymore and the world moves on.

PAD ... never heard of them. Who are these red hooligans causing chaos in the streets, cuckoo?

[Journalist]

Why is is so unfair to be allowed to sell one's vote?

After all. Its my vote.

If someone wants 1) to give me THB500 for it....or 2) wants to give me a comprehensive package of tax deductions, subsidies for my business, and economic breaks (including for example a THB 2000 gift cheque) for it.

Then its up to me as a voter isn't it.

that isn't what democracy is, or?

add 2) this is for all, no matter if they vote for the government or not

So supposing I start a political party and say to all the poor people - 'ok vote for me and not one of you will pay tax. We'll sting the rich'

And I win. But they've effectively sold their votes to me, and they get rewarded. My voters win en bloc thanks to my new policies - but all the rest of the voters don't. The rest get to pay for it all.

(p.s This reasoning is partially why we don't have one man one vote in Hong Kong, because there aren't enough taxpayers. Millions pay nothing, and if they could vote, heaven knows what some populist could promise them)

there were many parties who tried that already and got not elected. Often Communists are doing exactly that and don't get elected.

And if elected they can't full-fill their promises.

Usually you can explain everyone that money does not grow on trees....

Put Yes it is a problem, that parties come with extreme populist ideas before the election. Result is that no voter believes anything anymore in Europe as all parties try to promise more impossible things than the other. That is also damaging the democracy.

Of course, you're right. They might still not get elected.

I have to say, even though it took me a while to get used to it, your deep feeling for the way in which democracy should be played fairly does shine through.

[animatic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbnFPhExOTw

I hope the 2 guys (one holding the gun, one holding the photo) surrender themselves to the police for protection. Else, if the Red catch them first, I am sure they will not live another day.

Of course if Sae Daeng's little night time grenade attacks hadn't driven PAD from GH

and on the march to somewhere more important, and defensible,

this incident wouldn't have happened.

Cause and effect.

Thaksin miscalculated on driving PAD from their site,

and it became a transitional street battle.

One side having been bombed in the night several times that week.

I find it easy to imagine there was NO TRUST for any other group

that they met on the street those days.

In each case of PAD violence listed above,

someone ELSE had made a violent attack on them causing escalation.

Doesn't make any of it 'right'.

But it doesn't give the Reds ANY kind of pass as a less violent or more 'right' entity.

And the Reds have ACTIVELY attacked many times, and gone out of their way to do so.

Reds violently attacked many PAD meetings prior to the GH take over too.

The Reds have a long term documented propensity for violence

in the name of silencing countering argument to their positions.

[Steve2UK]

Of course if Sae Daeng's little night time grenade attacks hadn't driven PAD from GH

And your evidence for this assertion is............. ?

[h90]

Of course, you're right. They might still not get elected.

I have to say, even though it took me a while to get used to it, your deep feeling for the way in which democracy should be played fairly does shine through.

Well, beside system problems (aka USA where you can choose only between two similar parties, or Italy where the Democracy is working but at the end the output is evil, etc etc etc), democracy would need that everybody is a) educated enough (if you can't read, you can't read the newspaper), informed, and that means also interested (of course easier when there are always good news on TV instead of soap operas) and that means investment of a lot time. Many people either have no time, if you work hard 10 hours and you have a family and children you simply can't discuss political issues like we do. Others are simply not interested at all.

That leads specially in Europe and USA that people vote the best show-master. Live discussions in which a thinker doesn't look good, while someone silly who can speak good has an advantage. On the other side populists, no matter if left or right.

Than of course also the money. Vote buying is one thing, but when you look at USA, without money no election.

I have no solution for that problem.....

[henryalleman]

"Govt desperate to block Thaksin's calls

By: BangkokPost.com

Published: 1/04/2009 at 05:08 PM

The government is searching desperately for ways to block former premier Thaksin Shinawatra's phone-ins to his supporters, with Information and Communications Technology Minister Ranongrak Suwanchwee in talks with CAT Telecom about cutting off the signal.

Mrs Ranongrak said cutting off the signal had to be done carefully, because it could affect other people also using the same frequency.

She was speaking after attending a special cabinet meeting on Wednesday to discuss ways to deal with the protest rallies by the red-shirt supporters of the pro-Thaksin United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship."

Continues at:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/1...ksin-appearance

Blocking the phone-ins from Thaksin is stupid, and make him more important than hen is. He is just an stand-up comedian and not even a good one.

[henryalleman]

Do the Rope-A-DOPE'S know that Kasit isn't with the Finance Ministry, but the Foreign Affairs Ministry?

Your post shows that you're too slow to catch what's going on.

The reds go there to tell Korn stop borrowing money from other countries. They say if 1st dek chai Abhisit and 2nd dek chai Korn can pay those loans, feel free to borrow, but the red government who will be next will not clear those loans.

Koo, you are a misguided woman and I still believe you have som comon sense, but now you lost your sense of reality completely. If a government make a debt or borrowing money abroad, every government after them will pay it back. And you even more unrealistic to believe that the next government will be red and lead by Thaksin.

You realy should wake up and accept that the Thaksin era is over, and will never come back again.

[edwardmoulton]

Do the Rope-A-DOPE'S know that Kasit isn't with the Finance Ministry, but the Foreign Affairs Ministry?

Your post shows that you're too slow to catch what's going on.

The reds go there to tell Korn stop borrowing money from other countries. They say if 1st dek chai Abhisit and 2nd dek chai Korn can pay those loans, feel free to borrow, but the red government who will be next will not clear those loans.

Koo, you are a misguided woman and I still believe you have som comon sense, but now you lost your sense of reality completely. If a government make a debt or borrowing money abroad, every government after them will pay it back. And you even more unrealistic to believe that the next government will be red and lead by Thaksin.

You realy should wake up and accept that the Thaksin era is over, and will never come back again.

Following this amusing war of words, it seems to me that actually koo has more sense than henryalleman and has a better command of English so who is he to make personal comments here. And furthermore, far more people on every side beleive the Thaksin era is far from over so maybe he should try to say something interesting and constructive rather than negative drivel based on no facts or arguments....

[kurtgruen]

You realy should wake up and accept that the Thaksin era is over, and will never come back again.

I can just see it, her hero, Toxin trying to get a standup comedian job in Vegas and the first thing the casino manager will ask him is "So, where did you say you are from, Thailand? Do you speak Taiwanese or English? You call this English??? No, this won't even do for comedy. Good news is, I see here on your application, that you managed to scam billions of dollars from that country you came from, so maybe we'll have an opening for you as a casino dealer.

[edwardmoulton]

On a different but relevant point, I note the breaking news that the G20 summit has reached definite decisions to provide massive cash injections of 1 trillion against the recession. I'm assuming Abhisit had very little part in that as his pathetic attempt at an Asean Summit in Hua Hin recently produced exactly zero agreements on every front such is his inability to do anything beyond banal smiling rhetoric! HE could not even get them all to agree to look at eachother in the same room on some points. Weak and well out of his depth as every move on the economy shows... 2,000 THB to the lower paid, nothing to the unpaid... ummmh, then don;t save it, spend it right now! Help agriculture somehow but hot sure, booze ban - several weeks and then 'not really'... Santika, unsolved attempted murder in HH, PAD prosecution, it goes on... just weak excuses for everytig and no action as well as telling us that the economy will be fine soon for several months... oops. Obviously he and Korn paid little attention to economics at Oxford... mystery to me how he got through and ended up with a PPE degree...

[henryalleman]

Re. Chamlong - why would anyone dismiss his very public life as Bangkok Governor, leader of Phalang Dharma party, and leader of Santi Asoke sect, and instead define the man by actions thirty years ago no one remembers anymore?

From what I know, our government at least 10 years ago did not approve that Santi Asoke.

Ask any monk and see how they say.

Its not the task of a government to approve a religious movement. IMHO its even a compliment that a Thai government do not approve them. Politics and religion are already too much connected for mutual benefits in Thailand. They scrub each others back and conspire to keep people ignorant, obedient and docile.

[Pierrot]

Do the Rope-A-DOPE'S know that Kasit isn't with the Finance Ministry, but the Foreign Affairs Ministry?

Your post shows that you're too slow to catch what's going on.

The reds go there to tell Korn stop borrowing money from other countries. They say if 1st dek chai Abhisit and 2nd dek chai Korn can pay those loans, feel free to borrow, but the red government who will be next will not clear those loans.

Koo, you are a misguided woman and I still believe you have som comon sense, but now you lost your sense of reality completely. If a government make a debt or borrowing money abroad, every government after them will pay it back. And you even more unrealistic to believe that the next government will be red and lead by Thaksin.

You realy should wake up and accept that the Thaksin era is over, and will never come back again.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva has shortened his London visit and would return to Thailand on Friday evening instead of Saturday morning, government spokesman Panithan Wattayakorn said Thursday.

Mr Panithan said the early return has nothing to do with the red-shirt rallies.

Wake up !!!