Father And Mother

[loong]

Another topic is running about the use of Father and Mother with non related persons.

Something that happens fairly regularly happened again today and so made me think about posting this.

It may be more a culture or possibly a racist thing (I hope not) so I'm hoping that somebody can shed some light.

When I first met my girlfriend's daughter she was 18 months old. At that time, she was taught to call me Papa.

Over the last 2 years, she has come to regard me as her Father (and I consider her to be my Daughter).

Remember this is Isaan.

Nowadays when she wants my attention, she will not always use "Papa", most times she will use "ee paw", I'm not going to write in Thai as I've no idea how to write "Ee".

I like it when she calls me "ee paw", it makes me feel that I've done well by her and that she loves me the same as if I was her real Father.

What I don't understand is why, when some other people hear her call me "ee paw" they correct her and tell her that my name is "Papa".

Can anybody help me to understand?

[katana]

If it's EE อี, that's usually placed before a female's name etc so would be interested too here to find out what EE PAW means.

[Samuian]

I would be careful in NOT TO overvalue this custom!

surrogate mothers and fathers are quite common as the fact that someone not related may call one "Da", "Ba", or "Lung" or" Nong" or even "Lo-k"... it's just a common occurrence, a custom.

As in rural society, children are taken care of by neighbors, friends, any community member that has some trustworthiness.

So don't overestimate it's rather free implemented use!

It' is also often used to display friendliness, kindness, conflict avoidance.... pleasing, being pleasant or trying to display such ....

[loong]

If it's EE อี, that's usually placed before a female's name etc so would be interested too here to find out what EE PAW means.

I don't think that a 3 and a half year old girl understands the complexities of the language. This Ee is not Thai language it is Isaan.

[bannork]

Another topic is running about the use of Father and Mother with non related persons.

Something that happens fairly regularly happened again today and so made me think about posting this.

It may be more a culture or possibly a racist thing (I hope not) so I'm hoping that somebody can shed some light.

When I first met my girlfriend's daughter she was 18 months old. At that time, she was taught to call me Papa.

Over the last 2 years, she has come to regard me as her Father (and I consider her to be my Daughter).

Remember this is Isaan.

Nowadays when she wants my attention, she will not always use "Papa", most times she will use "ee paw", I'm not going to write in Thai as I've no idea how to write "Ee".

I like it when she calls me "ee paw", it makes me feel that I've done well by her and that she loves me the same as if I was her real Father.

What I don't understand is why, when some other people hear her call me "ee paw" they correct her and tell her that my name is "Papa".

Can anybody help me to understand?

My kids call me อีพ่อ ee paw too and it's fine in Issan but others may think it's too country, not refined,cosmopolitan or central Thai enough.You have to be careful using อี though.

[meadish_sweetball]

EE อี is rude in Standard Thai but yes you're right, it's not necessarily so in an Isaan context.

This is just my theory, for what it's worth:

I am guessing your Isaanite neighbours think that you should be treated according to the Standard Thai "polite" norm, and are concerned that she is being overly familiar when using อีพ่อ with you.

I don't think it classifies quite as racism although it is a type of 'segregation' perhaps - but I'd say it could be equally out of concern that she should seem more respectful to you, given that you probably travel out of Isaan and when you do, other Thais might think it rude or strange with a sweet look khrueng girl calling her father something familiar bordering on crude.

Note that it is common practice to refer to people of Chinese descent as เจ๊ "jay" and เฮีย "hia" [NB! WATCH THE TONE, if you apply the wrong one it becomes an insult, the old water monitor lizard...!] too, and this usage is not considered rude but quite normal as far as I have been able to suss out - I think it's a fair analogy to use when comparing it to "papa".

[Tywais]

EE อี is rude in Standard Thai but yes you're right, it's not necessarily so in an Isaan context.

And it has to be used carefully with other terms as there are some quite profane terms out there when it is prefixed with it. Also, it is not exclusive to Isaan. My wife's nephews and nieces prefix her name with it and they are from Chon Buri. Though that was some years ago when they were quite young, have not heard it recently.

[DavidHouston]

Both "อ้าย" and "อี" seem to be features of rural language which might differ from urban usage.

Here are some descriptions from "New Model Thai-English Dictionary", compiled by So Sethaputra, Thai Watana Panich Press Co., Ltd., 1965 (Fifth Edition 1984)

"อี n. 1. A designation used in contempt or abuse before a proper name, or before a common name of a woman or a female animal; อีนังคนใช้คนนั้นหายไปไหน (S) Where has that worthless (good-for-nothing, useless) maid servant disappeared to? – C. อ้าย . . . "

"อ้าย n. a designation used in contempt, imprecation or playful banter, before a proper name or generic name of a male person, male animal or thing; อ้ายเด็กคนนั้นไปไหน (S) Where is that damned boy? . . ."

Mary Haas ("Thai-English Student's Dictionary", Compiled by Mary R. Haas, Stanford University Press, Stanford, California, 1964) has the following:

"อ้าย ๑ . . . 1. Derogatory title used with first names of men, esp. of criminals, but also for purposes of insult; formerly used with names of male slaves. 2. Term freely used with reference to objects or persons (regardless of sex), and without special connotations. 3. Bound element in the names of a few creatures, esp., the cricket. Also spelled ไอ้ . . ."

"อี . . . 1. Derogatory title used with first names of women, esp. women criminals but also for purposes of insult; formerly used with names of women slaves. 2. Colloq. Term freely used with reference to objects or to persons (regardless of sex), esp. in conjunction with a demonstrative word, and without special connotations. 3. Bound element in names of birds and animals. . . ."

The depreciating uses seem at odds with what I hear in Phuket where the prefixes of อี and อ้าย are used when referring to close friends, female and male respectively, in Phuket dialect. On the other hand, both of these source dictionaries are fairly old and the usages contained therein may be dated.

Can anyone quote for us definitions and usages from some more recent sources? Thanks.

[loong]

Yes, I agree that อี is not polite. But this is different. Maybe it's my ears, but it doesn't seem to be a long vowel, but is not exactly the short vowel either - sort of half way if that makes sense. Also sounds like a falling tone.

Isaan people being ethnic Lao, speak their own version of Thai/Lao with many varying dialects.

As samuian said

I would be careful in NOT TO overvalue this custom!

surrogate mothers and fathers are quite common as the fact that someone not related may call one "Da", "Ba", or "Lung" or" Nong" or even "Lo-k"... it's just a common occurrence, a custom.

As in rural society, children are taken care of by neighbors, friends, any community member that has some trustworthiness.

So don't overestimate it's rather free implemented use!

Yes, Paw and Mae are often used as terms of respect for just about anybody older.

In Isaan, the prefix Ee is reserved for your real Mother and Father or people who are Very special.

That's why I am pleased and in a way honoured that my stepdaughter sometimes calls me Ee Paw.

[KhaoNiaw]

I think they're just telling her to call you "Papa" because that's what they think a farang father should be called. My daughter never called me "Papa", but people in Bangkok and Isaan often tried calling me that when talking to her.

[yoot]

In northern and isaan dialect, they would call father as อี่ผ่อ and mother as อี่แหม่. They are not the same tones as "อี" and "พ่อ" and "แม่" in central Thai.

As loong has mentioned "In Isaan, the prefix Ee is reserved for your real Mother and Father or people who are Very special.", that's true.

[loong]

Thanks for that Yoot, but are you able to tell me why the locals want her to call me "Papa" and not "Ee Paw"?