Koi Ponds

[wackysleet]

No naam I am not spending 8000baht a month on the pond, and never said that I was the figure is apprx 4000 baht, that figure includes refilling at about 25 per cent a month an air pump delivering 200 litres of air per minute on during the daytime 15 mins on 15 mins off and on during the night continuously,I also have further back-up filters consisting of 3 large dustbins used when the weather is stormy and blowing a lot of dust and dirt.

something does not fit Wacky. i refer to your

quote: "total water in the pond is turned over every 45minutes"

let's do simple maths (using instead of 40,000 liters 30,000).

-30,000l/45min = 40,000l/h = ~670l/min = minimum 2 pumps each 2HP (2 x 1.4kwH) x 24 hrs = ~67kwH/day = ~2000 kwH/mth = 8,000 Baht

conclusion: either the volume is less than 30k liters or the estimated 45 minutes turnover is incorrect.

but whatever it is i say your pond and your fish are <deleted> beautiful and i bloody envy you!

naam, who am I to argue, but I do know according to my water meter that the volume in my pond is 8,035 galls, the 40,000litres was a quick calculation of 5litres to the gallon, obviously a mistake.

My figures of through put of 45mins is based on the pump figures I have, Resun PG Series P/G18000 {Japanese make} quoted figures with no head of water of 18000 litres per hour high efficiency pumps of 250 watts {2pumps} with another two pumps of similar capacity but not used on a day to day basis but the air-pump is on a timer and as I have previously said the times, I don't want to repeat myself the air pump is also manufactured by Resun with a capacity of 2oolt per min, could not find the box to verify power consumption, and it has never been my intention to lie about my pond,pictures speak volumes as to water conditions and fish etc;. Wacky.

[wackysleet]

Rimmer, Ifactory, as I said pictures and sketch, albeit rough but it should be self explanatory but feel free to ask anything.

Rimmer I have tried to capture the fish I think you asked after but the bloody thing wouldn't stay still.

[Naam]

c'mon Wacky! nobody said you lied. as i have a pond myself i am interested in each and everything and of course the running cost too. in my case (after having algae which made the water thick like peasoup) i consulted an expert who advised me on bio-filter, water volume turnover, pumping time 24/7, etc. and i calculated that would have meant spending another 18-22,000 Baht a month on electricity on top of my basic 10-12,000 Baht.

by the way, here's the beef (i think):

"quoted figures with no head of water of 18000 litres per hour high efficiency pumps of 250 watts"

even without considering any head, i don't believe 250 watt pump with that capacity exists.

please keep the thread going as a koi and fish layman i am most interested in each and every detail as i would like to have kois again in my pond.

[Rimmer]

Here are a few pictures of my koi pond here in the Kingdom.

Love the way you have done the pond, very nice.

I can spot Yamabuki Ogon, Kawarimono and Kohaku, what is the handsome gray and silver one?

Rimmer, I have looked through my pictures again and if it's the piccy 3rd row down on the left and the fish is the silver/black in the top right of the picture then thats the one I'm not too sure about, but will try to get a close up and post tomorrow as I would like to know for sure what type it is. Wacky.

This handsome guy.

[wackysleet]

Here are a few pictures of my koi pond here in the Kingdom.

Love the way you have done the pond, very nice.

I can spot Yamabuki Ogon, Kawarimono and Kohaku, what is the handsome gray and silver one?

Rimmer, I have looked through my pictures again and if it's the piccy 3rd row down on the left and the fish is the silver/black in the top right of the picture then thats the one I'm not too sure about, but will try to get a close up and post tomorrow as I would like to know for sure what type it is. Wacky.

This handsome guy.

Rimmer, can't say thats a favourite of mine but I believe it to be a Gin Matsuba, it looks like platinum overlaid with the Matsuba pattern.

[wackysleet]

c'mon Wacky! nobody said you lied. as i have a pond myself i am interested in each and everything and of course the running cost too. in my case (after having algae which made the water thick like peasoup) i consulted an expert who advised me on bio-filter, water volume turnover, pumping time 24/7, etc. and i calculated that would have meant spending another 18-22,000 Baht a month on electricity on top of my basic 10-12,000 Baht.

by the way, here's the beef (i think):

"quoted figures with no head of water of 18000 litres per hour high efficiency pumps of 250 watts"

even without considering any head, i don't believe 250 watt pump with that capacity exists.

please keep the thread going as a koi and fish layman i am most interested in each and every detail as i would like to have kois again in my pond.

Resun Sea-Lion WaterPump PG 10,000-18,000-28,000@ www.himfr.com

[Naam]

Resun Sea-Lion WaterPump PG 10,000-18,000-28,000@ www.himfr.com

did a little research and found

Resun Sea-Lion WaterPump PG 8500 / 8,500l/h / 230w, which i consider extremely efficient but possible

http://www.resun-china.com/en/ProductInfo....mp;ProClass=108

then i found another (indonesian) supplier of Resun pumps who claims absolute rubbish such as

"HP-16000

Power: 100W

Qmax.: 16000L"

and

"HP-20000

Power: 130W

Qmax.: 20000L"

http://indonetwork.net/aquaria/group+40367...ppower-head.htm

bottom line: i repeat that pumps with these capacities exist only in the imagination of marketing.

but all that does not matter. the real bottom line is that you have clear water in your beautiful pond and beautiful fish!

[wackysleet]

Resun Sea-Lion WaterPump PG 10,000-18,000-28,000@ www.himfr.com

did a little research and found

Resun Sea-Lion WaterPump PG 8500 / 8,500l/h / 230w, which i consider extremely efficient but possible

http://www.resun-china.com/en/ProductInfo....mp;ProClass=108

then i found another (indonesian) supplier of Resun pumps who claims absolute rubbish such as

"HP-16000

Power: 100W

Qmax.: 16000L"

and

"HP-20000

Power: 130W

Qmax.: 20000L"

http://indonetwork.net/aquaria/group+40367...ppower-head.htm

bottom line: i repeat that pumps with these capacities exist only in the imagination of marketing.

but all that does not matter. the real bottom line is that you have clear water in your beautiful pond and beautiful fish!

naam, of course your right,at the end of the day my results are what counts, I said the Resun pumps were Japanese but are actually Chinese, the site I gave you specifies my statement along with the instructions on the box.

There are a lot of pumps that are sold as Resuns but are in fact fakes, especially those made in Indonesia, Resun pumps to my knowledge are licensed by the Chinese to be manufactured in Australia and no where else and are in my opinion the very best for the money,I have recently replaced one pump so they possibly have a continuous life span of a couple of years. Wacky.

[wackysleet]

naam, by the way I originally followed the problems with your pond and the algae growth, have you now resolved the issue? and retained your koi, your pond I have to say looked really good and of course the green stuff can spoil the effects and on a purely personal note I would have planted the surrounding area in an attempt to cut out some of the sunlight as once you have the promblem it's difficult to eradicate, I posted pics but in fact had just been in the pond and cut down a lot of the reeds I have growing in pots, it maybe a case of closing the door after the horse has bolted but my plants are in very large pots planted with clay {not dirt} and covered with small rocks the size of oranges, the top of the pots are about 1 inch below the surface thus stopping the fish rooting around too much, a few more pics of your pond now would be good. Wacky.

[Ifactory]

Resun Sea-Lion WaterPump PG 10,000-18,000-28,000@ www.himfr.com

did a little research and found

Resun Sea-Lion WaterPump PG 8500 / 8,500l/h / 230w, which i consider extremely efficient but possible

http://www.resun-china.com/en/ProductInfo....mp;ProClass=108

then i found another (indonesian) supplier of Resun pumps who claims absolute rubbish such as

"HP-16000

Power: 100W

Qmax.: 16000L"

and

"HP-20000

Power: 130W

Qmax.: 20000L"

http://indonetwork.net/aquaria/group+40367...ppower-head.htm

bottom line: i repeat that pumps with these capacities exist only in the imagination of marketing.

but all that does not matter. the real bottom line is that you have clear water in your beautiful pond and beautiful fish!

naam, of course your right,at the end of the day my results are what counts, I said the Resun pumps were Japanese but are actually Chinese, the site I gave you specifies my statement along with the instructions on the box.

There are a lot of pumps that are sold as Resuns but are in fact fakes, especially those made in Indonesia, Resun pumps to my knowledge are licensed by the Chinese to be manufactured in Australia and no where else and are in my opinion the very best for the money,I have recently replaced one pump so they possibly have a continuous life span of a couple of years. Wacky.

Hi wacky , the Resun pumps are make in Australia?In that case I wouldnt bother to bring my Iwaki pumps , Used to stick to Ehiem then Iwaki and Tsurumi never tried Resun before.

[Ifactory]

c'mon Wacky! nobody said you lied. as i have a pond myself i am interested in each and everything and of course the running cost too. in my case (after having algae which made the water thick like peasoup) i consulted an expert who advised me on bio-filter, water volume turnover, pumping time 24/7, etc. and i calculated that would have meant spending another 18-22,000 Baht a month on electricity on top of my basic 10-12,000 Baht.

by the way, here's the beef (i think):

"quoted figures with no head of water of 18000 litres per hour high efficiency pumps of 250 watts"

even without considering any head, i don't believe 250 watt pump with that capacity exists.

please keep the thread going as a koi and fish layman i am most interested in each and every detail as i would like to have kois again in my pond.

Hi Naam , do you have the water test report by the consultant ? Should be able to trouble shoot from there.What was the initial designer's stand anyway?

[wackysleet]

Resun Sea-Lion WaterPump PG 10,000-18,000-28,000@ www.himfr.com

did a little research and found

Resun Sea-Lion WaterPump PG 8500 / 8,500l/h / 230w, which i consider extremely efficient but possible

http://www.resun-china.com/en/ProductInfo....mp;ProClass=108

then i found another (indonesian) supplier of Resun pumps who claims absolute rubbish such as

"HP-16000

Power: 100W

Qmax.: 16000L"

and

"HP-20000

Power: 130W

Qmax.: 20000L"

http://indonetwork.net/aquaria/group+40367...ppower-head.htm

bottom line: i repeat that pumps with these capacities exist only in the imagination of marketing.

but all that does not matter. the real bottom line is that you have clear water in your beautiful pond and beautiful fish!

naam, of course your right,at the end of the day my results are what counts, I said the Resun pumps were Japanese but are actually Chinese, the site I gave you specifies my statement along with the instructions on the box.

There are a lot of pumps that are sold as Resuns but are in fact fakes, especially those made in Indonesia, Resun pumps to my knowledge are licensed by the Chinese to be manufactured in Australia and no where else and are in my opinion the very best for the money,I have recently replaced one pump so they possibly have a continuous life span of a couple of years. Wacky.

Hi wacky , the Resun pumps are make in Australia?In that case I wouldnt bother to bring my Iwaki pumps , Used to stick to Ehiem then Iwaki and Tsurumi never tried Resun before.

Ifactory, they are made in China but I am led to believe that they are also manufactured in Australia under license but are readily available here in Thailand, I bought a replacement a couple of months ago and think it was about 3000baht and I am quite impressed with them. Wacky.

[Ifactory]

OK its very cheap for the capacity , I'll look into them . I tend to shy away from chinese made stuff to have a good night's sleep but then again what isnt chinese made now a days .

Thanks for the detailed filtration presentation anyway ,what did you use to seal the cement?

I thought I caught a glimpse of someone peering out of your filter chamber.

[Naam]

1. naam, by the way I originally followed the problems with your pond and the algae growth, have you now resolved the issue?

2. and retained your koi, your pond I have to say looked really good and of course the green stuff can spoil the effects

3. and on a purely personal note I would have planted the surrounding area in an attempt to cut out some of the sunlight

as once you have the promblem it's difficult to eradicate, I posted pics but in fact had just been in the pond and cut down a lot of the reeds I have growing in pots, it maybe a case of closing the door after the horse has bolted but my plants are in very large pots planted with clay {not dirt} and covered with small rocks the size of oranges, the top of the pots are about 1 inch below the surface thus stopping the fish rooting around too much, a few more pics of your pond now would be good. Wacky.

Wacky,

1. my pond was a disaster as i was (and i still am) a bloody ignorant greenhorn. that's why i am hesitating now to take any further steps and spoil again what sort of satisfactory pond (albeit without fish except a bunch of tiny ones which feed on mosquito larvae) i have achieved. presently the water is fine but a lot of sediment has accumulated at the bottom which can't be vacuumed out because of the tons of decorative rocks (for which i paid a fortune). that the water is presently rather clear seems to be because i have a lot of floating plants.

2. my kois are all dead because stupid² me played around with all sorts of chemicals

3. planting, which provides more shade, would hide the pond. when i sit in my den i just have to turn my chair halfway and i can see my pond a view that i don't want to miss. what i am contemplating is leaving the pond as it is and build another one (much smaller and easier to handle albeit with all the bells and whistles!) in which i keep koi. but i am hesitating and try to collect whatever information i can in order to avoid more mistakes. and that means that any information from experienced pond owners like you is very valuable too me.

for your information: present pond surface is ~50m², volume ~30,000 liters. i use a swimming pool sandfilter, have two pumps each 1.25 HP, one pump going through the filter and waterfall and the other one exclusively for the waterfall to aerate. filtration is practically zero as the pumps are on timer and running 3 times a day, each time only 20 minutes. letting them run 24/7 did not provide any advantage.

this is what the pond looks today:

[wackysleet]

OK its very cheap for the capacity , I'll look into them . I tend to shy away from chinese made stuff to have a good night's sleep but then again what isnt chinese made now a days .

Thanks for the detailed filtration presentation anyway ,what did you use to seal the cement?

I thought I caught a glimpse of someone peering out of your filter chamber.

Ifactory, did you understand the sketch ok? at the very bottom there are 3drains but had to draw very quicly as my daughter was just going out to take part in a film for tv and she's the one that puts the photos on for me, the ghost was me as wife was taking the photos, paint I used was Jotun 82, coal tar epoxy, black, and is a 2 pact very very good.

[Naam]

Hi Naam , do you have the water test report by the consultant ? Should be able to trouble shoot from there. What was the initial designer's stand anyway?

the consultant did only a pH test which was 7.2 = ok.

and the "initial designer" is this clown

[wackysleet]

1. naam, by the way I originally followed the problems with your pond and the algae growth, have you now resolved the issue?

2. and retained your koi, your pond I have to say looked really good and of course the green stuff can spoil the effects

3. and on a purely personal note I would have planted the surrounding area in an attempt to cut out some of the sunlight

as once you have the promblem it's difficult to eradicate, I posted pics but in fact had just been in the pond and cut down a lot of the reeds I have growing in pots, it maybe a case of closing the door after the horse has bolted but my plants are in very large pots planted with clay {not dirt} and covered with small rocks the size of oranges, the top of the pots are about 1 inch below the surface thus stopping the fish rooting around too much, a few more pics of your pond now would be good. Wacky.

Wacky,

1. my pond was a disaster as i was (and i still am) a bloody ignorant greenhorn. that's why i am hesitating now to take any further steps and spoil again what sort of satisfactory pond (albeit without fish except a bunch of tiny ones which feed on mosquito larvae) i have achieved. presently the water is fine but a lot of sediment has accumulated at the bottom which can't be vacuumed out because of the tons of decorative rocks (for which i paid a fortune). that the water is presently rather clear seems to be because i have a lot of floating plants.

2. my kois are all dead because stupid² me played around with all sorts of chemicals

3. planting, which provides more shade, would hide the pond. when i sit in my den i just have to turn my chair halfway and i can see my pond a view that i don't want to miss. what i am contemplating is leaving the pond as it is and build another one (much smaller and easier to handle albeit with all the bells and whistles!) in which i keep koi. but i am hesitating and try to collect whatever information i can in order to avoid more mistakes. and that means that any information from experienced pond owners like you is very valuable too me.

for your information: present pond surface is ~50m², volume ~30,000 liters. i use a swimming pool sandfilter, have two pumps each 1.25 HP, one pump going through the filter and waterfall and the other one exclusively for the waterfall to aerate. filtration is practically zero as the pumps are on timer and running 3 times a day, each time only 20 minutes. letting them run 24/7 did not provide any advantage.

this is what the pond looks today:

naam, looking at your pond now it looks to be ripe for re;introducing koi again with a few proviso's I have never been keen on sand filters as they clog too easily and the way I see things is that I want to enjoy my pond, not spend all bloody day on maintenance, I spend 10 minutes a day and once a month half an hour trimming plants thats it.

What intrigues me about your pond and I wish that mine was as large {it had to fit at the side of the house} is what have you have in the way of supplying water to your filter, gravity fed bottom drains are accepted in the industry as being the most cost effective as you do away with a pump and the best way of shifting muck from the bottom and is the best system, as for running your pumps all the time will not improve matters as you have no fish so to speak thus no waste products to break down from ammonia into nitrites into nitrates thus no algae problem, do not confuse the needs of the usual fish needs with the needs of koi, koi are ornamental fish and you want to see them not have them hiding under 3ft of murky green water, if you want to know about filtration just pm me your pond could be put right for a lot less money than building another pond. Wacky.

[Ifactory]

OK its very cheap for the capacity , I'll look into them . I tend to shy away from chinese made stuff to have a good night's sleep but then again what isnt chinese made now a days .

Thanks for the detailed filtration presentation anyway ,what did you use to seal the cement?

I thought I caught a glimpse of someone peering out of your filter chamber.

Ifactory, did you understand the sketch ok? at the very bottom there are 3drains but had to draw very quicly as my daughter was just going out to take part in a film for tv and she's the one that puts the photos on for me, the ghost was me as wife was taking the photos, paint I used was Jotun 82, coal tar epoxy, black, and is a 2 pact very very good.

Yup! Understood loud and clear!

Its a typical under / over design , what valves are you using for your bottom drains?

Pt noted reg the water proving .

[Ifactory]

Hi Naam , do you have the water test report by the consultant ? Should be able to trouble shoot from there. What was the initial designer's stand anyway?

the consultant did only a pH test which was 7.2 = ok.

and the "initial designer" is this clown

Ok hansum man!

Should be quite fun reworking on the filtration mechanics , PH test alone is eerm abit vague. You might want to consider a decent lab around your place to get a report.

[wackysleet]

OK its very cheap for the capacity , I'll look into them . I tend to shy away from chinese made stuff to have a good night's sleep but then again what isnt chinese made now a days .

Thanks for the detailed filtration presentation anyway ,what did you use to seal the cement?

I thought I caught a glimpse of someone peering out of your filter chamber.

Ifactory, did you understand the sketch ok? at the very bottom there are 3drains but had to draw very quicly as my daughter was just going out to take part in a film for tv and she's the one that puts the photos on for me, the ghost was me as wife was taking the photos, paint I used was Jotun 82, coal tar epoxy, black, and is a 2 pact very very good.

Yup! Understood loud and clear!

Its a typical under / over design , what valves are you using for your bottom drains?

Pt noted reg the water proving .

actually it's the reverse, over and under as in my view its easier to spend 10 minutes a day using the vac at the top of the filter where with my system all the crap collects rather than the other way around with the crap collecting at the bottom, I originally had a pipe sticking up through the middle of each chamber which was lifted to enable dirty water to run to waste but now I have a single tap on the waste pipe at the point of discharge.

[Ifactory]

OK loud but maybe not so clear , lets clear up the ambiguity.

I was thinking of my filtration design as I intend to incorporate timers to back flush the vortex and chambers daily. Lazy me 555 top up and flushing might be done while I'm still in bed .

Other then the possible 100% vortex flush and the first chamber for mechanical filtration , I dont think I'm looking to clean out the other chambers much. Thus my choice for under/over .But then again as per our previous discussion I have no intention to sacrifice filter capacity to achieve pristine water management.

Would you happen to know your water temperature ?

[wackysleet]

OK loud but maybe not so clear , lets clear up the ambiguity.

I was thinking of my filtration design as I intend to incorporate timers to back flush the vortex and chambers daily. Lazy me 555 top up and flushing might be done while I'm still in bed .

Other then the possible 100% vortex flush and the first chamber for mechanical filtration , I dont think I'm looking to clean out the other chambers much. Thus my choice for under/over .But then again as per our previous discussion I have no intention to sacrifice filter capacity to achieve pristine water management.

Would you happen to know your water temperature ?

Ifactory, water temp is normally in the range of 18 to 24degrees which is the range I am looking for to promote good growth, all 3 chambers in my filter contain exactly the same amount of filter medium, apprx 18 inches of black spikey balls at the base followed by 18inches of pumice stone about the size of walnuts both mediums in net bags about the size of cushions and the top layer is japanese matting, obviously the third chamber contains the pumps but as I said all chambers are the same and only the first chamber is vacuumed, it also has a pre-filter that I made that fits over the top to collect large objects like leaves etc.

[Ifactory]

18 to 24 deg ?!?! unshaded isnt it?

You are right, water temp is almost in the premium range and achieved without the use of a chiller!

[wackysleet]

18 to 24 deg ?!?! unshaded isnt it?

You are right, water temp is almost in the premium range and achieved without the use of a chiller!

these temps are taken from a depth of apprx 12inches but I do have a lot of water movement.

[Ifactory]

18 to 24 deg ?!?! unshaded isnt it?

You are right, water temp is almost in the premium range and achieved without the use of a chiller!

these temps are taken from a depth of apprx 12inches but I do have a lot of water movement.

Something which I would have to fix possibly only after construction has completed , I understand with the installation of Bakki showers I might be able to drop maybe 1 deg .With shaded canopy maybe another degree but as far as I know might be impossible to achieve the temp range that you are getting.

Pond water is expected to be in the 23 - 28 deg range. Due to running costs I really hope that I do not have to go through that path.

[wackysleet]

18 to 24 deg ?!?! unshaded isnt it?

You are right, water temp is almost in the premium range and achieved without the use of a chiller!

these temps are taken from a depth of apprx 12inches but I do have a lot of water movement.

Something which I would have to fix possibly only after construction has completed , I understand with the installation of Bakki showers I might be able to drop maybe 1 deg .With shaded canopy maybe another degree but as far as I know might be impossible to achieve the temp range that you are getting.

Pond water is expected to be in the 23 - 28 deg range. Due to running costs I really hope that I do not have to go through that path.

Ifactory, why are you so concerned with your water temp, what exactly are you hoping to achieve with your fish my aim as you know is rapid growth but the japanese will frequently have water temps in the high 20s and occassionally over, but saying that I doudt that K.L. is likely to have the extremes of cold that they have in Japan. Wacky.

[Ifactory]

Yes Wacky, rapid growth is surely achievable in the region's climate.

Temperature is just 1 more variable i'll like to play around with others like diet and water quality optimum water quality.

I'm very new to Koi so still in the process to learn more in depth into the raising process , colour / pattern and basic bodyline might be 80% genetics but I would like be able to understand and control further the seasonal factors and development relationships with control over water temperature .

Was there a difference between the growth/colour development while you were keeping koi in temperate countries vs now in the tropics?

[wackysleet]

Yes Wacky, rapid growth is surely achievable in the region's climate.

Temperature is just 1 more variable i'll like to play around with others like diet and water quality optimum water quality.

I'm very new to Koi so still in the process to learn more in depth into the raising process , colour / pattern and basic bodyline might be 80% genetics but I would like be able to understand and control further the seasonal factors and development relationships with control over water temperature .

Was there a difference between the growth/colour development while you were keeping koi in temperate countries vs now in the tropics?

Ifactory, definitely an increase in growth which is a mixture of genetics, feeding good quality food, room to move and of course the temp range I have thus allowing the koi to feed all year round, unlike the U.K. but basically small parents usually equals small off- spring

genetics are really the spring board to quality large koi with a good pattern and colour spread, as I'm sure your aware, cristal clear water is not the best option for either colour or growth, that would be mud ponds covered in green algae, clear water is a compromise to enable us enthusiasts to actually see our fish, I try to feed 3% of body weight per fish per day but you cannot decide who gets the most or even the right amount.

[Ifactory]

Yeah mud pond and green water raising I do have abit of prior experience . But then It would be another subject all together . I'll echo what you just said , crystal clear water doesnt mean good water .What most of us are trying to do is just to attempt to have clear water for viewing , of course there are many other variables in water chemistry other then to define good water being crystal clear water.

Rapid growth too has its pros and cons, I think . General body line, swimming posture, defined finished colours might be affected by the 20%(??) variable due to raising methods other then genetics which we have to rely on the breeder.

To be more direct, have you observed any difference in any development/behaviour in the different climates? Maybe some people might think that I'm nit picking on the few deg celcius difference but as a fellow aquarist I'm very sure you can understand my concerns .Its a step closer to further understand my hobby.

[wackysleet]

Yeah mud pond and green water raising I do have abit of prior experience . But then It would be another subject all together . I'll echo what you just said , crystal clear water doesnt mean good water .What most of us are trying to do is just to attempt to have clear water for viewing , of course there are many other variables in water chemistry other then to define good water being crystal clear water.

Rapid growth too has its pros and cons, I think . General body line, swimming posture, defined finished colours might be affected by the 20%(??) variable due to raising methods other then genetics which we have to rely on the breeder.

To be more direct, have you observed any difference in any development/behaviour in the different climates? Maybe some people might think that I'm nit picking on the few deg celcius difference but as a fellow aquarist I'm very sure you can understand my concerns .Its a step closer to further understand my hobby.

Ifactory, the quality of the fish I now own are a long way from those I had in the U.K. there is no way I would ever have paid the over inflated prices a lot of dealers were charging for "well they are expensive sir they are from Japan " but of course the gullible and their money are soon parted, yes there are some very good fish out of Japan but do not believe that the very best fish ever leave Japan, a lot of so called enthusiasts just like to boast about how expensive their fish were, a sort of one upmanship.

Personally I buy my fish on the attributes I like, as when they are in the water it is often very difficult to tell good from mediocre.

As for difference between here and the U.K. it's mostly down to genetics, quality of food,and quantity, I try to feed my fish at 3% of their body weight per day, or to put it another way, I guestimate the weight of food per day and the fact that I feed all year round here does of course have a bearing on their growth unlike the U.K. where you would expect to cease feeding in the coldest months