The Ten Precepts Of Soto Zen

[camerata]

Since Brad Warner (the punk rocker Zen priest) mentions only 10 precepts for priests and laymen, I was wondering what they are. Apparently there are a number of minor precepts, but the 10 major precepts of Soto Zen (also known as the Bodhisattva Precepts) are:

(1) do not kill,

(2) do not steal,

(3) do not engage in improper sexual conduct,

(4) do not lie,

(5) do not deal in intoxicants,

(6) do not criticize others,

(7) do not praise self and slander others,

(8)do not be stingy with the dharma or property ,

(9) do not give way to anger,

(10) do not disparage the Three Treasures.

The first five correspond to the Five Precepts of Theravada Buddhism, except that No. 5 implies that ingesting intoxicants is OK. It's interesting that in the Pali Canon there are "Four Virtues" (if I remember correctly) mentioned in one place and five in another, as if the Buddha added the one about intoxicants at a later date.

Precepts 6 and 7 are excellent IMO, and related to Right Speech. Theravada should have them too! Precept 9 is also a good one, I guess related to Right Speech and Right Action.

Precept 8 seems to be formalizing the virtue of dana, which is good.

Precept 10 seems pretty redundant to me. It's hard to imagine anyone calling themselves a Buddhist if they disparage the Three Treasures.

[Svenn]

Right speech seems like one of the toughest ones, because it's difficult to keep mindful in the heat of a conversation. The problem with precepts like 6 and 7 and 9 above is that people get around them by being a smart-ass and insinuating negativity while smiling, ... almost more unattractive than just being outright criticizing. Not getting irritated with people, and not defending your pride when people are insulting, is one of the rarest social traits i've seen, few people are willing to let others make them look stupid.

[rockyysdt]

Right speech seems like one of the toughest ones, because it's difficult to keep mindful in the heat of a conversation. The problem with precepts like 6 and 7 and 9 above is that people get around them by being a smart-ass and insinuating negativity while smiling, ... almost more unattractive than just being outright criticizing. Not getting irritated with people, and not defending your pride when people are insulting, is one of the rarest social traits i've seen, few people are willing to let others make them look stupid.

Not only due to lack of mindfulness in the heat of conversation, but also due to lack of knowledge and/or poor belief.

Even if we give ourselves time to respond skillfully many of us aren't wise enough to answer appropriately.

Also, as all the precepts are open to interpretation, many of us can fool ourselves into bending them.

Edited April 10, 2009 by rockyysdt

[SeerObserver]

Also, as all the precepts are open to interpretation, many of us can fool ourselves into bending them.

The first thing that comes to mind is #5. Many Theravadins interpret it as avoiding intoxicants, and many interpret it as avoiding intoxication. Although there isn't really much doctrinal division that I'm aware of among serious practitioners that trade intoxicants is an evil trade.

I always knew that drinking wasn't any sort of taboo or anything in Zen (and maybe some other traditions) but never looked into what their 5th precept would then be. In a way it makes sense that it would then follow that their 5th precept would have to be what it is, but in another way it doesn't make much sense. If drinking is ok, then why isn't providing the substance?

[camerata]

Not only due to lack of mindfulness in the heat of conversation, but also due to lack of knowledge and/or poor belief.

I'm not sure where belief comes into it. One can establish in a couple of weeks of practice that Right Speech has a beneficial effect on oneself and others (not to mention a ripple effect spreading out across all humanity). This is just the psychology of interpersonal relationships.

Lack of mindfulness is definitely the problem. Even if we have a lot of time - like when we answer an email - the ego can sneak in if we are tired, have had a bad day, have had a couple of beers or are dealing with a subject we have strong feelings about. In real-life verbal situations, if someone tries to draw me into an argument I just smile and refuse to say anything. You can do that In Thailand. It's one of the things I love about Thai culture.

Also, as all the precepts are open to interpretation, many of us can fool ourselves into bending them.

This is true only if one focuses on the words rather than the intention of the precepts. You can reduce all the precepts down to: "Don't harm others and don't harm yourself." And you can check every thought, word or deed by asking yourself: "Am I trying to gain something for my self here?" With speech, you'll find that 99% of all sarcasm and criticism is just your ego wanting to feel superior to others. But it's kind of difficult to abstain from all criticism while participating in a discussion forum.

[rockyysdt]

I'm not sure where belief comes into it.

Don't our beliefs color our responses in life?

Until we become advanced practitioners many of us may be fooled into thinking that our positions, often formed by belief, are correct when they may not be.

" you can check every thought, word or deed by asking yourself: "Am I trying to gain something for my self here?"

Whilst still anchored to the "ego" or "I" aren't most things we do in life on every level associated with some kind of self gain?

Even our chosen Buddhist path is associated with a desire to be enlightenment.

Of course we know the ego must be extinguished to eventually get there but isn't the ego our initial impetus?

[camerata]

Don't our beliefs color our responses in life?

Until we become advanced practitioners many of us may be fooled into thinking that our positions, often formed by belief, are correct when they may not be.

We are talking about Right Speech as an experiment, not as a "position" or a belief. It's not something you do because you believe in the Buddha or the scriptures, it's an experiment you try because you see the benefits of success and feel the effort is worth it. It's like applying for a job. Your reason for applying is not because you fervently believe you'll be hired, it's because you see the potential benefits to you and your family (and even the company) are worth the effort of applying.

Whilst still anchored to the "ego" or "I" aren't most things we do in life on every level associated with some kind of self gain?

Even our chosen Buddhist path is associated with a desire to be enlightenment.

Of course we know the ego must be extinguished to eventually get there but isn't the ego our initial impetus?

What does it matter if it is? Some self-interest is involved in everything, but it's a matter of degree. The issue of desire and enlightenment was explained a couple of months ago. The point here is that we are training ourselves to do things with the long-term goal of enlightenment (which benefits all beings) rather than the short-term goal of puffing up our own ego.

[rockyysdt]

What does it matter if it is? Some self-interest is involved in everything, but it's a matter of degree. The issue of desire and enlightenment was explained a couple of months ago. The point here is that we are training ourselves to do things with the long-term goal of enlightenment (which benefits all beings) rather than the short-term goal of puffing up our own ego.

Mainly that ego motivation can impact on our ability to observe precepts in many ways.

[rockyysdt]

What does it matter if it is? Some self-interest is involved in everything, but it's a matter of degree. The issue of desire and enlightenment was explained a couple of months ago. The point here is that we are training ourselves to do things with the long-term goal of enlightenment (which benefits all beings) rather than the short-term goal of puffing up our own ego.

Mainly that ego motivation can impact on our ability to observe precepts.

[camerata]

Mainly that ego motivation can impact on our ability to observe precepts.

All that matters is that while trying to observe the precepts, we progressively reduce the part that self/ego plays in any thought, word or action. The fact that we have a desire to improve ourselves and reach enlightenment doesn't invalidate what we are doing.