An Arahant's Constitution

[SeerObserver]

Just to be clear, I write this thread with no intention of questioning anyone's attainment. That is why specific references are left out for the time being (although they will probably eventually be brought up here and there).

Having attained enlightenment, how would that be reflected in one's constitution?

There are accounts of arahants being rude and otherwise impersonable. These range from the time of the Buddha through to modern times. Wouldn't one with such an attainment have gradually shed certain traits such as impatience, rudeness, etc? What about foul language?

It could be argued that certain attitudes are expressed as a skillful means of teaching a lesson as well, so that might reconcile certain instances of rudeness and the like.

And what to make of smoking?

Edited April 8, 2009 by SeerObserver

[Samuian]

Just to be clear, I write this thread with no intention of questioning anyone's attainment. That is why specific references are left out for the time being (although they will probably eventually be brought up here and there).

Having attained enlightenment, how would that be reflected in one's constitution?

There are accounts of arahants being rude and otherwise impersonable. These range from the time of the Buddha through to modern times. Wouldn't one with such an attainment have gradually shed certain traits such as impatience, rudeness, etc? What about foul language?

It could be argued that certain attitudes are expressed as a skillful means of teaching a lesson as well, so that might reconcile certain instances of rudeness and the like.

And what to make of smoking?

ARHANT is some sort of title - do you sincerely believe/think that a truly "enlightened" being still would like to rant about some f..... title like arhant?

Title shows that this individual still hasn't made "the jump"!

And "rudeness", "kindness", "gentleness", "Goodness" are simple divided perceptions of someone who is still cought up in duality!

Is this clear?

Edited April 8, 2009 by Samuian

[SeerObserver]

ARHANT is some sort of title - do you sincerely believe/think that a truly "nlightned" being still would like to rant about some f..... title like arhant?

Title shows that this individual still hasn't made "the jump"!

Is this clear?

It's about as clear as unrefined crude oil.

Masters considered to be arahants generally do not refer to themselves as such, partially because it is against vinaya. It is other people that label them as arahants out of belief in their level of attainment.

So while I agree that attachment to labels indicates that the fetters have not been cut, that principle does not really apply to this thread. The point of this thread is to see if in cutting out the fetters, one's constitution has changed and certain acts/attitudes are no longer going to emanate from such a being.

[fabianfred]

"Four types of noble disciples..."

"In this community of monks there are monks who are arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of the first set of five fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only one more time to this world — will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks."

— MN 118

even Sotapanna can still break the five precepts...but only in a minor way...not enough to warrant falling into a lower realm after death...... I don't believe an Arahant would have any defilements left......although mahayana like to claim an Arahant still has subtle defilements.....

[rockyysdt]

even Sotapanna can still break the five precepts...but only in a minor way...not enough to warrant falling into a lower realm after death...... I don't believe an Arahant would have any defilements left......although mahayana like to claim an Arahant still has subtle defilements.....

I get confused with these terminologies.

What is the difference between an Arahant & a Buddha?

[SeerObserver]

I get confused with these terminologies.

What is the difference between an Arahant & a Buddha?

There are 3 types of enlightened beings.

1. Sammasambuddha - Becomes enlightened and finds the dhamma in their last existence on their own accord (although they may have encountered dhamma from a previous Sammasambuddha in a previous existence i.e. Gotama and Dipankara) and teaches the dhamma to other beings. Of note, the dhamma from previous Sammasambuddhas is believed to have been long lost due to societal decline and the like.

2. Paccekabuddha - Same as above but is silent and does not teach dhamma.

3. Arahant - Becomes enlightened by following the noble path taught by Sammasambuddha.

[SeerObserver]

I don't believe an Arahant would have any defilements left.

Are you familiar with the story of an arahant around the time of the Buddha who was said to be rude and impersonable? And of course there are more modern arahants whom display certain character traits from time to time. But like I said, that can be a skillful means to handle a certain scenario.

There is an account of Ajahn Chah I have seen somewhere (unverified so please let me know). Someone claiming to have just attained stream-entry came to tell him about it. Ajahn Chah says something along the lines that he supposes the meditator is now much better off than a dog (a fairly harsh insult in Thai, to call someone a dog). Afterwards, the meditator is fuming and leaves. Sotapanna?

[camerata]

As I recall, in Ajahn Brahm's second book, he lists the various things the various levels of enlightened beings cannot do based on what's written in the Pali Canon. The only two I remember is that a sotapanna is incapable of killing any living being but is capable of having sex.

I also remember Ajahn Chah mentioning a Thai monk with high attainments who was of an irascible nature, but when you looked, there was "no one home." He seemed to be saying that the monk's outward characteristic of grumpiness was still evident but there was no ego-intent behind it.

[fabianfred]

sotapanna can certainly still live the household life and have sex...as can Sakdagami...but Anagami has uprooted those passions and will not have sex anymore..

They say that one who attains Arahant must ordain within a few days or die.......because the householder's life is incomatible with an arahant's existence......but since there is no ordination for women that cannot apply to them.

[camerata]

They say that one who attains Arahant must ordain within a few days or die.......because the householder's life is incomatible with an arahant's existence......but since there is no ordination for women that cannot apply to them.

Yeah, but this is just a myth based on a few instances mentioned in the Pali Canon. Personally, I think any lay person who attains arahantship will definitely want to ordain and live in a monastery (there is such a case described in Kornfield's book Living Dharma) for obvious reasons but the idea that they'll die within 7 days if they don't is nonsense.

[SeerObserver]

This is one of the accounts that I had seen before which led to this thread.

...Arahant Pilindavaccha, in the Pilindavaccha Sutta of the Udāna. Also given in more detail in the Dhammapada Commentary to Dhp. verse 408. The term of insult was 'vasala', meaning hireling or outcaste.