Seriosuly, Wtf Does Vote Buying Even Matter?

[pumpuiman]

I'm sick and tired of people referring to Thais as if they can't think for themselves. Screw your herd mentality, and what "Academics" think.

Everyone running for office comes by the house, and drops a hundred baht......all candidates.

Then the people vote just as any of you people would.

Your PAD crap about the poor being too dumb to vote and needing "reeducation" to see clearly has fogged some minds here.

My family are from Isaan.They grew up on a small rice farm. Worked harder than any of you intellectuals ever have, and saved every penny to go to school. One is an engineer, one runs her own successful business, one is in upper level management at the post office.

They are able to think for themselves. They vote for whoever they want. They and all the other villagers have a good laugh come polling time. I've seen this with my own eyes...not read an academics "opinion"

If some idiot politician thinks ringing doorbells and handing out hundred baht notes will help...more power to him, but Thais are NOT dumb animals.

[BHA83]

^^^ You must be mistaken, Democrats never engage in vote buying.

Sorry silly me!

They never engage in proper education, employment creation or transport infrastucture either (12 hours by train Ubon to Bangkok. I can drive it in 8!). Just keep the poor uneducated, poor and uneducated!

Although this can be said for all past governments before you all start to shout!

Essan ....... Know your place!

[BHA83]

I'm sick and tired of people referring to Thais as if they can't think for themselves. Screw your herd mentality, and what "Academics" think.

Everyone running for office comes by the house, and drops a hundred baht......all candidates.

Then the people vote just as any of you people would.

Your PAD crap about the poor being too dumb to vote and needing "reeducation" to see clearly has fogged some minds here.

My family are from Isaan.They grew up on a small rice farm. Worked harder than any of you intellectuals ever have, and saved every penny to go to school. One is an engineer, one runs her own successful business, one is in upper level management at the post office.

They are able to think for themselves. They vote for whoever they want. They and all the other villagers have a good laugh come polling time. I've seen this with my own eyes...not read an academics "opinion"

If some idiot politician thinks ringing doorbells and handing out hundred baht notes will help...more power to him, but Thais are NOT dumb animals.

Cheers mate, 100% correct. You've taken the words out of my mouth.

[eldar1]

1. There is no actual contract to force the person to vote for who pays them, therefore the vote has not been bought, only promised.

2. What if Obama puts out a bunch of donuts at his town hall meetings. are those donuts a gift? what is the cash value? So giving someone $6 is unethical but giving them $6 worth of donuts is OK?

3. Its been said over and over again, ask any farang here married in Isaan that the people will take money from every candidate. Perhaps this is why every candidate participates in the practice.

4. There is still no evidence that certain candidates would not have been elected if there was no vote buying. Its all speculation.

1. This is true, there is not actual contract, although there are ways which parties will monitor what people vote for. methods include camera phones, carbon papar, or even plain corruption of election officials.

2. The free doughnuts provided don't come with a caveat that you can only have them if you vote for the person providing them.

3. So that means if a candidate does not do it then they have no hope of winning. Besides the excuse of "but everyone else does it" has never really held water has it?

4. True, there is no conclusive data that a certain candidate has won purely based on vote buying, this would also be hard to prove as the amount of factors involved is huge. What i will say is that multiple studies have pointed out that as much as 55%* of people will vote for the person how paid them the most money.

*I've read studies with the amount of people voting purely because of monetary compensation ranges from 20-55% of people that accepted bribes.

So if spending money to buy votes up front gains you a 20-55% of vote sellers, then does it not by default influence and election and thus worthwhile for certain parties. I'm not saying it's the most efficient or best way, but the fact is that it does help.

Up front vote buying does not guarantee an election win, but within a cohesive strategy it certainly has it's place.

We'll leave the implication of vote buying and it's moral and ethical implications to both the politicians and the vote sellers for another time.

[NovaBlue05]

Is it bad? It injects cash into an impoversished area while still allowing the recipients to vote for the candidate of their choice. My wifes family lives in Nong Bua Lamphu and they have taken money from both sides in the same election......and voted for whom they wanted. It seems like a stupid tactic on the politicos part....money much better spent on creating real ideas and solutions.

Actually, if you ask me whether I prefer the US system where politicians are bought and paid for by corporations by the time they are sworn in versus financially needy people getting a few bucks and then still having freedom of choice.....I'd probably take the latter.

[Mosha]

I can think of one problem re not voting for the guy who buys the vote. There was a vote for a new Puy Yai, this guy we know had accepted the money from one side and voted for the other. He went to the party of the guy who bought his vote (he lost). They knew he hadn't voted for them and told him to get out. It suggests that voting is not a secret affair in Thailand

[canuckamuck]

there are checks...pictures with the handycam. getting a part and the other half after the party won in your area etc etc

The beginning (easier to understand) 20 or so years ago, they gave a left shoe and after that area was won they gave the right shoe.

From the 2 elections where I waited outside or my wife to vote, I can tell you that no check was in place and she clearly did not vote for the party handing out the dosh. I know this is anecdotal, but I find it hard to believe there is a guy in there with a handycam watching people vote.

[NovaBlue05]

"..It suggests that voting is not a secret affair in Thailand ..."

If that is the case, then the real problem would appear to securing the integrity of the confidential/secret voting system. Everyone should be allowed to vote privately with no obligation to explain their choice and things will work out as they should ultimately. The 200 baht for your vote would seem to add a circus sideshow element to the process but otherwise be irrelevant.

[canuckamuck]

So yeah vote buying matters and it does influence elections (if it didn't I doubt people will still do it).

The only thing you have convinced me of is that you believe your own point of view.

Maybe we disagree because I didn't come from a herd.

Not a mammal then, are you?

The higher mammals eat the herds.

[john b good]

I think you didn't understand correctly at all, but it's unlikely anyone here is going to change your mind, so never mind.

Yellow PAD terrorists got paid just the same of course.

I can see that I didn't make myself sufficiently clear. There will always be money involved in politics, but there are (at least) two alternatives:

Alternative 1: Use money and other resources to convince voters that your ideas, people etc are better than the others'.

Alternative 2: Use money to directly pay voters to vote for you.

Alternative 1 exists in all democracies and is, to my mind, legitimate. Alternative 2 destroys the very foundation of democracy and should be harshly punished.

I am not in any way siding with either the yellow or the red side, in fact I consider them both equally catastrophic for Thailand.

What TonySoprano said was, among other things, the following: "Obama spends 1 billion USD on his campaign, Thai politicians from the Democrat party and all the other parties go out and pay people directly for their vote. What is the difference? Each man gets a vote, if he wishes to sell his, what does it matter?"

I think it matters very much, we are talking about a difference in substance here, not a difference in degree.

/ Priceless

I am not being paid to vote "but I agree with you 110 %" with your statement"

Thailand will never ever have a government elected on merit (leastaways not for light years) until the masses are educated on the issues and, the honesty and integrity of the candidates.

Paying a person for his/her vote is morally wrong "but then, when have "morals" ever been a concern to the majority of folk here in the realm.

[LooseCannon]

A few thoughts & general observations about 'vote buying'... maybe 'vote influencing' would be more appropriate.

I can't believe that politicians would hand out money if there were no discernable results. Maybe if one side has paid out the money, the other side might feel obligated to do the same just to balance it up a bit.

I think that vote buying would be much more effective in smaller homogenous communities. The 'phu yai baan' can generally exert a lot of influence over the villagers due to his relationship with them.

In turn the 'phu yai baan' are influenced by the local 'kamnan'. I think at this level the big(ger?) money really starts to flow. As result the local villagers do hold a vested interest in getting the 'right' person elected as this money filters down through the 'phu yai baan'.

Urban & semi-urban areas lack the social cohesion & close family ties of the village & results in the vote buying money being more of a general spray designed to 'influence' rather than 'buy'.

Tracking how people voted on an individual level can be problematic, but can easily be determined to a 'polling booth' level.

Typically scrutineers from all parties involved monitor the vote count from each individual ballot box. This ballot box can be tied to a specific polling booth. Party 'A' paid x amount of baht in village 'y' but got bugger all votes from that ballot box - maybe the 'phu yai baan' would have to do a bit of 'explaining'.

The smaller rural communities tend to be fairly polarized as to which party they vote for, & families & villages tend to vote as a block with few dissenters from the 'family' line. It seems that if party 'A' is the prefered party, all others are for the most part excluded, & in this context the 'vote buying' is more of a 'thank you for your loyalty' & now go out & do your duty.

One thing that I do know for certain is that politicians (of all countries) do not do things that do not benefit themselves & create advantage for themselves & as such these 'vote buyers' would have crunched all the numbers & decided that the return was sufficient to justify the expense.

[NovaBlue05]

I ask my wife (and she's just a sweet, Issan educated woman rather than the Uni-educated from a prominant Bangkok family most others here seem to be married to) why her province votes for Thaksin...or his proxy. The answer never speaks of money. She says that he gave them some health care help, low rate loans and better school supplies for the village schools. That probably doesn't seem like much to the average, devious, farang mentality but, when you have essentially been ignored previously, sometimes small gestures can endear you to a person.

[Ricardo]

"..It suggests that voting is not a secret affair in Thailand ..."

If that is the case, then the real problem would appear to securing the integrity of the confidential/secret voting system. Everyone should be allowed to vote privately with no obligation to explain their choice and things will work out as they should ultimately. The 200 baht for your vote would seem to add a circus sideshow element to the process but otherwise be irrelevant.

Agreed, the problem is when you can just look through the window of your village-hall, and see who is voting for whom, and whether they are doing as they've been paid to do. This does sometimes happen locally.

It seems to me that if an individual MP buys votes, then that should be a problem for only that particular MP, but that when one/some of a political-party's executive-committee/leadership are actively involved in arranging for vote-rigging, then it ought to become a problem for the whole party-organisation.

The EC ban on the party-organisation, and the 5-year sending-off of its leadership, but not the banning of every innocent member-MP, seems a measured-response to encourage parties not to indulge in this behaviour, unfortunately TRT failed to learn this lesson in time to save PPP. Hopefully PTP will not continue the mistake.

[helloall]

I think you should view the small payment as an incentive to vote only. My maid got the money last time but who knows who she actually voted for since its a secret ballot

[Kitsch22]

"..It suggests that voting is not a secret affair in Thailand ..."

If that is the case, then the real problem would appear to securing the integrity of the confidential/secret voting system. Everyone should be allowed to vote privately with no obligation to explain their choice and things will work out as they should ultimately. The 200 baht for your vote would seem to add a circus sideshow element to the process but otherwise be irrelevant.

Agreed, the problem is when you can just look through the window of your village-hall, and see who is voting for whom, and whether they are doing as they've been paid to do. This does sometimes happen locally.

It seems to me that if an individual MP buys votes, then that should be a problem for only that particular MP, but that when one/some of a political-party's executive-committee/leadership are actively involved in arranging for vote-rigging, then it ought to become a problem for the whole party-organisation.

The EC ban on the party-organisation, and the 5-year sending-off of its leadership, but not the banning of every innocent member-MP, seems a measured-response to encourage parties not to indulge in this behaviour, unfortunately TRT failed to learn this lesson in time to save PPP. Hopefully PTP will not continue the mistake.

The entire vote-buying case and disqualification was simply an essential part of the retrospective validation of the military coup that deposed the victor in the last set of free and fair elections held in Thailand. The mistake that nobody should continue to make is to believe that Thailand is a democracy! Why do you think that the last supporters of Thaksin holding senior posts in the military have all just been moved to inactive posts?

[egg6447]

I think you didn't understand correctly at all, but it's unlikely anyone here is going to change your mind, so never mind.

Yellow PAD terrorists got paid just the same of course.

I can see that I didn't make myself sufficiently clear. There will always be money involved in politics, but there are (at least) two alternatives:

Alternative 1: Use money and other resources to convince voters that your ideas, people etc are better than the others'.

Alternative 2: Use money to directly pay voters to vote for you.

Alternative 1 exists in all democracies and is, to my mind, legitimate. Alternative 2 destroys the very foundation of democracy and should be harshly punished.

I am not in any way siding with either the yellow or the red side, in fact I consider them both equally catastrophic for Thailand.

ahem, because someone buys my vote dont mean they get my kiss. know what i mean?.

What TonySoprano said was, among other things, the following: "Obama spends 1 billion USD on his campaign, Thai politicians from the Democrat party and all the other parties go out and pay people directly for their vote. What is the difference? Each man gets a vote, if he wishes to sell his, what does it matter?"

I think it matters very much, we are talking about a difference in substance here, not a difference in degree.

/ Priceless

[egg6447]

Your name is Eldar, so I will talk slow.

Please show some proof that people feel obligated to vote for the party from whence they took the money from. From what I have gathered, If someone offers cash, the cash is taken But on Election day they will vote the way the most influential person in the family says to vote.

Why would it be any other way? Thais aren't stupid, but vote buying is.

Ahh yes, I’m sorry for not understanding you convoluted poor attempt at sarcasm, next time try harder, it's not that difficult.

I could turn around and place the burden of proof on you, but since that would be futile and infantile I won't. The fact is that humans do what you tell them to do, we have been raised that way and our biological herd instinct enforces it.

I'll try to keep this simple, so that you may understand. When a stranger asks you to do something, say like hold a door, tell the time etc. This is normal behavior, now add a monetary payment in the mix and people will do even more, examples like, here is a tenner could you wait 5 minutes while etc, plenty of examples. People to the weirdest things for money, hence why there are plenty of humiliating game shows and such.

Now vote buying is the norm here in Thailand, most people cannot remember an election where there hasn't been vote buying, so the ethical dilemma people face while exchanging cash for votes is either diminished or not there at all. So all that is really left for people is to think about any future bribes and the potential for adverse situations like physical violence (plenty of reports of intimidation at voting booths)

put all these things together and you get a person very willing to vote the way the person who is paying tells them to vote.

As for your influential family member, while that is certainly an issue here in Thailand, if you pay that person and they then tell their family what to do it all kind of boils down to the same thing.

So yeah vote buying matters and it does influence elections (if it didn't I doubt people will still do it).

yes , see where you're coming from. but you cant get away from the fact that that, yes vote buying effect elections, but elections dont effect governments. ie the ruling class is the ruling class the world over. no change there then. vote, no vote, bought vote sold vote , all same same .

[egg6447]

1) Politicians who buy votes are stupid, but if you allow yourself to be bought then you are worse.

2) If you someone gives you money for your vote and then vote for him even if you don't wan't to, then you are just making things worse.

Some might think that accepting money from politicians and voting the other way is smart. It could be so... If you really need the cash.

But, after these politicians spend so much money every election time, what do you think they would do to replenish their political "war" coffers? On their salaries?

Yes, it does matter, for this system, although not all the time, would only spawn more corruption.

My Thai girlfriend and I pray that the Thais would learn this soon. It may take time and a lot of prayers though. Peace and enjoy the holidays. Just remember to not drink and drive. The life you save may be your own.

very academic bs, your vote is worthless, well you could vote for the ruling class or ahm you could vote for the ruling class. dont matter sold or not. u still get the ruling class. my academic take is the ruling class aint doing anything for the majority. the world over.

[egg6447]

4. True, there is no conclusive data that a certain candidate has won purely based on vote buying, this would also be hard to prove as the amount of factors involved is huge. What i will say is that multiple studies have pointed out that as much as 55%* of people will vote for the person how paid them the most money.

*I've read studies with the amount of people voting purely because of monetary compensation ranges from 20-55% of people that accepted bribes.

So if spending money to buy votes up front gains you a 20-55% of vote sellers, then does it not by default influence and election and thus worthwhile for certain parties. I'm not saying it's the most efficient or best way, but the fact is that it does help.

Up front vote buying does not guarantee an election win, but within a cohesive strategy it certainly has it's place.

We'll leave the implication of vote buying and it's moral and ethical implications to both the politicians and the vote sellers for another time.

now how would you determine the %'s on a secret ballot, dont believe all you read and also people lie, well most of us. basicaly a throw away comment.

[egg6447]

I think you should view the small payment as an incentive to vote only. My maid got the money last time but who knows who she actually voted for since its a secret ballot

yes exactly.

[tijnebijn]

After all it is all in the game , the system every body so much believes in .

It is money talks , so who supports you the most is the winner .

Think the Op has got a very good point .

[njpski]

Vote buying = Pork barrelling without the middle man

How many of us vote for increased taxes, less services, in our own countries, not too many I would suggest.

I vote for the party that promises to do x and y for me, to have and implement policy z on topic a. Those were the inducements that caused me to vote a particular way - since that party was elected they have done none of the things I voted for - so I voted for them under false pretences.

In Thailand, by directly offering inducements to vote a particular way, the party gives the money directly to voter - sounds honest to me.

The bleating from one side re vote buying is the height of hypocrisy when their intention is to have unelected members of parliament. A true democracy is one man one vote

[freitag1]

Toneh... while I appreciate your direct way of writing from time to time this thread could also be titled: "Seriously, <deleted> why am I so simple minded?"

You do not see a difference between media manipulation and buying votes? Sorry to hear that.

[Sabum]

Toneh... while I appreciate your direct way of writing from time to time this thread could also be titled: "Seriously, <deleted> why am I so simple minded?"

You do not see a difference between media manipulation and buying votes? Sorry to hear that.

Hey Friday, playing any good games lately? Tony's not simple minded, just a victim of young brain, I had the same affliction 10 years ago.

[freitag1]

Toneh... while I appreciate your direct way of writing from time to time this thread could also be titled: "Seriously, <deleted> why am I so simple minded?"

You do not see a difference between media manipulation and buying votes? Sorry to hear that.

Hey Friday, playing any good games lately? Tony's not simple minded, just a victim of young brain, I had the same affliction 10 years ago.

Yeah I guess it gets better with time. And about gaming.. after getting burned with WAR I just plaid some offline stuff (GTA, Oblivion...). I tried AoC but somehow didn't enjoy it. Runes of Magic is fun but the ping s#cked some weeks ago so I gave up on the first evening of trying it.

I might try Champions Online though (comes in June / July) but until then I think I wont play much. I would love to play Crysis Wars and the upcoming Battlefield 1943 online but of course no servers with decent pings are or will be here (bf1943 might have one in TH though). Anyway on my mmo watchlist is Earthrise, SWTOR, Huxley, Jumpgate Evolution, Mortal Online and maybe even Aion. I just hope some of them have oceanic servers or our pings don't s#ck too much.