Plus Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 It is somewhat besides the point that many of their leaders and sub-leaders are deeply tainted by patronage and corruption as well. I'd say it's the inability of reds to find their own voice, outside those patronage networks, that is most depressing feature of the current situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journalist Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 ^Are you calling for him to be re-banned in accordance with Rule 266 ? 26) Not to create multiple accounts. Any member found to have more than one account on the ThaiVisa Forum will be suspended. Suspended or banned members found creating additional accounts will be banned immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Arrest warrants for red-shirt leaders The Criminal Court has approved arrest warrants for eight more leaders of the red-shirt protest movement, including a Police Lieutenant-Colonel, on charges of illegal assembly and instigating unrest during the Songkran riots. Police Major-General Amnuay Nimmano, Deputy Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, said a committee chaired by Deputy Police Chief Police General Tanee Somboonsap had presented evidence to support the application to the court. This included tapes of speeches made by leaders of the red shirts on April 13 at Chamai Maruchet bridge. The eight suspects named in the warrants are Wiphuthalaeng Pattanaphumthai, Suporn Atthawong, Surachai Danwattanakul, Somchai Paiboon, Police Lieutenant-Colonel Waipot Arpornrat, Payap Panket, Methi Amornwuthikul, and Pichet Sukchindathong. Continued here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...d-shirt-leaders -- Bangkok Post 2009-06-16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 There was no election relating to the PAD's actions, hence, P-Net was not involved. But PNET/Pollwatch has issued a statement supporting the PAD after the Oct. 7 clashes. That is exactly the point why i cannot trust them anymore. There are many organizations and institutions interfering in affairs they have no authority to do so now in Thailand. It would be nice to have a social democrat party here. Recently there was an attempt to register such a party, which was not permitted. But just because there is no social democrat party does not mean that i have to support a conservative party - the democrats - instead. I do not see the democrats as the lesser evil. Their behavior since 2006 has shown that they are very much part of the problem, in my personal opinion - a even bigger part than TRT was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 It is somewhat besides the point that many of their leaders and sub-leaders are deeply tainted by patronage and corruption as well. I'd say it's the inability of reds to find their own voice, outside those patronage networks, that is most depressing feature of the current situation. Just because the traditional medias reduces the Red Shirts to being simple stooges of Thaksin, does not make it so. I am afraid, that lacking comprehensive information presented to you by the medias, you will have to go and see by yourself. But you won't do that. It is much more comfortable to have your preconceived stereotypes confirmed by a few anonymous internet buddies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Even pro-red Prawit admitted that reds failed to live up to expectations, he wrote a very critical article about them a couple of weeks ago. And yes, he attends red rallies in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I know you will be surprised, but P-Net is an apolitical organization. However, it is comprised of individuals, and individuals have their own views of politics, just as you are entitled to your own views. Some of these people you don't agree with. Some I don't agree with. Still, as an organization, P-Net remains apolitical and are one of the good guys. We need more NGO's like them in Thailand. PNET at one incident has not supported the military, while having been very quiet at the military coup, only shows that their loyalties are rather diffuse, especially towards democratic principles. Your comment above shows that you still are not clear on what Peoples Network for Election (P-Net) does. I brought them up as a source relating to the April 2006 election only because of your comments contra to the Constitutional Court's decision. Since P-Net supplied the proof, in this case, it is a valid source. This NGO observes elections and national referendums. That is all they do. It is staffed, primarily with approx. 4,000 hard working volunteers. If there is not an election or referendum, they are not involved. There was no election with the military coup, hence, P-Net was not involved. There was no election relating to the PAD's actions, hence, P-Net was not involved. Expecting them to comment on these events is an error. They won't. However, if there is a national election or referendum, such as the referendum conducted by the military as it relates to the 2007 constitution, P-Net will be involved. In this case, they blew the whistle on the military. In the case of the 2006 national election, they blew the whistle on the Election Commission. This is their role. No more and no less. `This matches my understanding of P-Nets' mission and functions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) Another post from justanothercybertosser before the Songkran riots: H90, There is no doubt, whatsoever, that many of the Reds are being paid and bused in by organizers. Anyone living in Bangkok who travels the city can see the buses. In one, relatively small area, I counted 74 large buses last week. What I thought was interesting was the amount of people who come from Bangkok and surrounding areas. This isn't the "army" of hard working farmers that the Red's organizers want to make it out to be. Absolute rubbish. The Udon Lovers, for example, held a large fundraiser on April 4, in which people from the area donated large amounts so that buses could be paid for. More people wanted to go than transport was available. People from these areas have financed their trip to the protests themselves. More and more middle class people from Bangkok have joined the rallies, and if you listen to the speeches on the stage, the organizers of the Red Shirts have pointed this out on numerous occasions. The Red Shirt movement is a mass movement, with a now highly organized communication and mobilization network. If the yellow ideologues (including the ones in Democrat Party disguise) do not realize this fact, and draw the necessary conclusion, meaning that substantial negotiations are to be initiated soon, Thailand will implode around their heads, maybe even some time during this year. Make what you will... Prescient mai? Or privy to planning and strategy? Seems to have not gone as foreseen... Edited June 16, 2009 by animatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) Grafting the patina of social forwardness on Thaksin's grasping minions, and their manipulates does not convert it to some suddenly laudable social mechanism for change, once Thaksin is disgraced and PARTY marginalized. Remember the names at the controls are not and never have been known for their social altruisms. Edited June 16, 2009 by animatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) Another post from justanothercybertosser before the Songkran riots:Thailand will implode around their heads, maybe even some time during this year. Make what you will... Prescient mai? Or privy to planning and strategy? Seems to have not gone as foreseen... As previously referenced, he's been touting this complete and utter collapse stuff for quite some time now. Somehow, it always seems to be "just around the corner" Edited June 16, 2009 by sriracha john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Perhaps a thread re-titling is in order, particularly with non-breaking news aspect and different arrest totals: eg. Arrest Warrants Issued For 22 Red Shirt Leaders And Thaksin ======================================================= Eight additional warrants of arrest issued for red-shirt core leaders Metropolitan Police yesterday circulated the arrest warrants for eight red-shirt core leaders involving in the Songkran mayhem adding to the list of 14 suspects, including 10 who have already reported themselves for questioning. The eight are Wiputhalaeng Patanaphumthai, Payap Panket, Surachai Danwatananusorn, Maetee Amornwuthikul, Somchai Paiboon, Waipoj Apornrat, Suporn Attawong and Pichet Sukchindathong. They are to face charges relating to inciting violence and instigating the disturbance. -- The Nation 2009-06-16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammered Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Perhaps a thread re-titling is in order, particularly with non-breaking news aspect and different arrest totals:eg. Arrest Warrants Issued For 22 Red Shirt Leaders And Thaksin ======================================================= Eight additional warrants of arrest issued for red-shirt core leaders Metropolitan Police yesterday circulated the arrest warrants for eight red-shirt core leaders involving in the Songkran mayhem adding to the list of 14 suspects, including 10 who have already reported themselves for questioning. The eight are Wiputhalaeng Patanaphumthai, Payap Panket, Surachai Danwatananusorn, Maetee Amornwuthikul, Somchai Paiboon, Waipoj Apornrat, Suporn Attawong and Pichet Sukchindathong. They are to face charges relating to inciting violence and instigating the disturbance. -- The Nation 2009-06-16 Apparently they just watched their way through a load of red TV from the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Oh, and Thaksin's latest phone in to red meeting in Udon is all over the mainstream media. He reportedly thanked Kwanchai for support and for not betraying him. How could anyone reach the conclusion that reds have moved past Thaksin already is beyond me. Nevermind Kwanchai's role in Udon mob attack on PAD rally just a year ago. Yeah, reds are agents of change... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) The eight are Wiputhalaeng Patanaphumthai, Payap Panket, Surachai Danwatananusorn, Maetee Amornwuthikul, Somchai Paiboon, Waipoj Apornrat, Suporn Attawong and Pichet Sukchindathong. They are to face charges relating to inciting violence and instigating the disturbance. Apparently they just watched their way through a load of red TV from the time. I have noticed "Issan Rambo" Attawong getting a lot of air-time on DTV the last 3 days. Edited June 16, 2009 by sriracha john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meelousee Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Wow arrest warrants issued. Will they be served? Nope, but for those who are still in country they go to the cop shop hand in the envelope and go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammered Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Well now Jatuporn claims he has a picture showing a dead red shirt. However, he isnt showing it to anybody yet but will show it at the next red shirt Sanam Luang gathering which apparently Thaksin may speak at. Things seem to be following a familiar pattern. Dreadful parlaimentary performance fails to even worry government. Build up a bit of hatred and try to ramp the numebrs for a demo. Show anything inflamatory you can to the converted at the events and then further pump it with dear leaders inciteful speeches. Cant remember that happening anytime recently and sure it wont happen again. Wonder if the picture is so good and clear and exposes what is claimed why a political operative of the Thaksin movement wouldnt show it right now and undermine government? Jatuporn really undermines his own claims with his politcal posturing Story at: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...-dead-red-shirt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) Well now Jatuporn claims he has a picture showing a dead red shirt. However, he isnt showing it to anybody yet but will show it at the next red shirt Sanam Luang gathering which apparently Thaksin may speak at. Things seem to be following a familiar pattern. Dreadful parlaimentary performance fails to even worry government. Build up a bit of hatred and try to ramp the numebrs for a demo. Show anything inflamatory you can to the converted at the events and then further pump it with dear leaders inciteful speeches. Cant remember that happening anytime recently and sure it wont happen again. Wonder if the picture is so good and clear and exposes what is claimed why a political operative of the Thaksin movement wouldnt show it right now and undermine government? Jatuporn really undermines his own claims with his politcal posturing Story at: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...-dead-red-shirt Jatuporn, a Puea Thai MP, said a well wisher had given a picture showing state authorities dragging away the dead body of a demonstrator in a red shirt to Suporn Atthawong, another UDD leader. =========================== Issan Rambo saves the Red Day. What a load of clowns these guys are. Two months to allegedly obtain a single photo of a single death when at the time they were attesting to "hundreds dead". But then their inability with number comprehension has been a long-standing problem, eg. "million person rally" Edited June 16, 2009 by sriracha john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammered Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Well now Jatuporn claims he has a picture showing a dead red shirt. However, he isnt showing it to anybody yet but will show it at the next red shirt Sanam Luang gathering which apparently Thaksin may speak at. Things seem to be following a familiar pattern. Dreadful parlaimentary performance fails to even worry government. Build up a bit of hatred and try to ramp the numebrs for a demo. Show anything inflamatory you can to the converted at the events and then further pump it with dear leaders inciteful speeches. Cant remember that happening anytime recently and sure it wont happen again. Wonder if the picture is so good and clear and exposes what is claimed why a political operative of the Thaksin movement wouldnt show it right now and undermine government? Jatuporn really undermines his own claims with his politcal posturing Story at: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/14...-dead-red-shirt Jatuporn, a Puea Thai MP, said a well wisher had given a picture showing state authorities dragging away the dead body of a demonstrator in a red shirt to Suporn Atthawong, another UDD leader. =========================== Issan Rambo saves the Red Day. What a load of clowns these guys are. Two months to allegedly obtain a single photo of a single death when at the time they were attesting to "hundreds dead". But then their inability with number comprehension has been a long-standing problem, eg. "million person rally" It is likely just a start in the attempt to up numbers for the Sanam Luang thing later in the month. To attract the converted and the curious plus the media. If it is serious evidence the odious one should be showing it now and not playing games. So games is indicated in this case. Interestingly thery are talking about rallying at several places and maybe extending their demo. It sounds like.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Another post from justanothercybertosser before the Songkran riots:Thailand will implode around their heads, maybe even some time during this year. Make what you will... Prescient mai? Or privy to planning and strategy? Seems to have not gone as foreseen... As previously referenced, he's been touting this complete and utter collapse stuff for quite some time now. Somehow, it always seems to be "just around the corner" "Just around the corner", or simply 'round the bend' ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Round the twist; works fine too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammered Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 This time we get the parliamentary walk out that fialed to derail the government. Now we hear about not joining committees or soemthing. The drama of the failed censure debate that preceded the red riot springs to mind. Not quite sure team red can whip it up for another riot though at this point. The paranoia around the Sakhon Nakhon by-election is almost palpable in PTP ranks too. They are virtually assured that seat uin the upper Isaan. If BJT takes it they are in all kinds of a mess concerning defecting MPs and, something a lot miss, future funds from supporters. It looks like hard times for PTP. Last time team red managed to deflect it with the riot but this time it may not be so rosy. They cant stop the government in parliament as they are too weak with numbers dropping at every vote. They cant afford the Sakhon Nakhon by-election to even be close (it should be a slam dunk for them), and they cant afford the red rally to be small or riotous. Interesting few weeks. PTP need a success in one the things, so far they lost badly in the parliamentary attempt. Next up Sakhon Nakhon and then red rally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 This time we get the parliamentary walk out that fialed to derail the government. Now we hear about not joining committees or soemthing. The drama of the failed censure debate that preceded the red riot springs to mind. Not quite sure team red can whip it up for another riot though at this point. Sorry, but strong disagreement here. Your post seems to indicate that the songkran riots were planned by the Reds. Yet it does not take into account that the government equally has not missed any opportunity to contribute to the violence in the first place. May i just mention please the setting up of the Blue Shirts who have attacked the Reds in Pattaya, for example. Both sides have made grave strategic mistakes, and are equally responsible for the resulting violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Your post seems to indicate that the songkran riots were planned by the Reds No way!!! They were planned by the invisbile hands pulling Abhisit strings. Reds were framed. Abhisit wasn't in the car, and invisible hands dressed up in red shirts were the ones burning buses and killing people, who were in fact evil PAD guards dressed as civilians, so they had to be shot anyway. There was one million red shirts in Bangkok during Songkran, but they were all sitting and quietly meditating. It was the biased media who lied to the whole nation. The truth today is that elites killed hundreds if not thousands of blues dressed up as reds and then carried their bodies away in military trucks. >>> Red movement is a fully blown cult now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 its supporters like justanothercybertosser and koo82 are persistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammered Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) This time we get the parliamentary walk out that fialed to derail the government. Now we hear about not joining committees or soemthing. The drama of the failed censure debate that preceded the red riot springs to mind. Not quite sure team red can whip it up for another riot though at this point. Sorry, but strong disagreement here. Your post seems to indicate that the songkran riots were planned by the Reds. Yet it does not take into account that the government equally has not missed any opportunity to contribute to the violence in the first place. May i just mention please the setting up of the Blue Shirts who have attacked the Reds in Pattaya, for example. Both sides have made grave strategic mistakes, and are equally responsible for the resulting violence. I kind of agree with some. However, I strongly believe that Thaksin did everything he could to create violence -removing family (even red supporters I talk to admit this looked incredibly suspicious) and his rhetoric even before the blue shirts at Pattaya. I agree blue shirts were inciteful but think it was more of a reaction than a precursor. The red rhetoric was ramped up before Pattaya and then there was the Friday stuff where the government agreed to give the red shirts a press conference in return for a return to BKK. This all happened. Then with splits in red shirt leadership over tacitcs coming out publically they returned while others blocked off bits of Bangkok, were met by outnumbered blue shirts, the police did nothing etc etc. The securtity forces not getting inviolved and even assisting red shirts was also going on at the time. Lots of stuff. I am sure everybody at an organization level knew violence was coming and it was just a matter of who played it out best in PR terms combined with some staying out of it by security forces and some joining the reds. So i kinda agree. Maybe the violence wasnt planned per se by the red shirts as a group but the conditions for it were created to a large extent by them and some of the leaders (including Thaksin) certainly had no problem inciting it. Im sure those behind the blue shirts didnt mind playing their part either knowing that things were going to get out of control and that when they did it would damage the (fallacious) image that red spin doctors had created of a peaceful movement. As with everything in the great game it comes down to PR, spin etc. There is another side rarely looked at too. That is how organizations present themselves and are perceived and how that affects what is expected of them. Militaries are expected to be quick to use violence in riot scenarios and be quite hard. Around Songkhran the Thai military managed to stay at the lower end of this expectation at least Police are expected to be similar and use force (as on Oct 7) and expected to use a certsain amount of violence or sometimes in Thailand to just disappear. The police were pretty non-existant around Songkhran which isnt surprising consdiering some were openly backing the demonstrators who then rioted. Governments are expected to use a certain level of institutional force to disperse a riot and if it goes too far it quickly becomes international new on a big scale (witness Iran). The Thai dispersal looked dramatic but there were no dead body shots (note how these have come out very clearly from Iran even though the authorites have been more careful to try and censor and cut off all media) and when it became clear their were only a couple of deaths the international news moved on. Dramatic as it seemed the government had managed to avoid the excesses that would have made it as big an issue as Iran today. The blue shirts were linked to Newin. Newin is expected to organize violent mobs and is claimed to have a history of doing it for TRT in the past. His links to the setting up of the UDD are often discussed ironically. That the blue shirts were a small hastily assembled group at Pattaya and hopelessly outnumbered leaves them PR wise as a side issue even if they did further inflame a situation that was already fast getting out of control. Even without the blue shirts it is likely the same events would have happened. The reds in reality had a history of violence and have always included some rather unsavoury people and groups from certain provinces. The red shirts finally got hung by their own petard. They very cleverly managed to create the meme that they were a peaceful demonstrating organisation even if therer was a long chain of evidence to show otherwise. That they achieved this peaceful tag was quite a PR achievement. However, when they were seen rioting, seizing armoured vehicles, driving buses at troop lines and driving LPG trucks into residentail areras and threatening to blow them up then it suddenly created a condition that they were acting not as expected -peacefully- but violently. In short the military, police, government, and even blue shirts acted as they were expected to and kept the state level of violence down to levels that were considered acceptable within these expectations. The reds on the other hand exposed their non-violent approach as the myth it was in a very dramatic fashion and by threatening local people with immolation further created the conditions where PR wise the authorities would be seen as the good guys. The Thaksin revolution rants that even the previosuly sympathetic Al Jazeerea called him for on were also quite counterproductive for the movement and at least to my mind show a desire for violence which has been seen at many times in his politcal career usually with others conducting it for him while he is safely a long way away. If his largely unheard call for all the 111 to turn out with all their people had been listened to by them then maybe things would have been different. His attempts to call in favours from police and military also seemed to not have been as succesful as he thought although he certainly had the ear of many police. Thaksin was no doubt counting on something happening in that period, whether that was a coup for him, a very violent crackdown, the intervention he asked for or the death of the PM who knows but none of it happened. However, it was all premised on the demos getting out of control which brings us back to maybe it wasnt exactly organised by the reds to be that way and I am sure some of the leaders were horrified at events but certainly Thaksin had an interest in it going that way and some of the leaders were of a more revolutionary zeal than others as has been coming out over the months. Edited June 17, 2009 by hammered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insight Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Frankly, whoever was behind it, I thought it was all imploding around our heads during Songkran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) I kind of agree with some. However, I strongly believe that Thaksin did everything he could to create violence -removing family (even red supporters I talk to admit this looked incredibly suspicious) and his rhetoric even before the blue shirts at Pattaya. I agree blue shirts were inciteful but think it was more of a reaction than a precursor. True, and that is why i have stated "equal blame". Thaksin's video links definitely have contributed. Nevertheless, even Suthep came out in an interview that attributing the Blue Shirts to Nevin is ridiculous, and has admitted that he was very much involved in the decision to use them. Yet he lied about not having planned any violent action by the Blue Shirts. There is ample footage that the Blue Shirts were armed with both guns and other makeshift weapons, and that they have initiated the violence. Not all Red Shirt leaders have been defending their actions. I believe that i have read that Jaran, for example, has openly stated that they have made mistakes. As to the level of violence - the government got lucky. Absence of proof does not prove the opposite. And for the international media's interest - something extraordinary must happen in Thailand before it takes more than a glancing interest. The same events in a country closer to the western interest would have meant much more coverage, including long term and in depth. Edited June 17, 2009 by justanothercybertosser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Frankly, whoever was behind it, I thought it was all imploding around our heads during Songkran. And it will not have been the last time, unless the different sides find some common ground to negotiate. Frankly speaking - i do not see that happening, all are still engaged in this trench war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 No way!!! They were planned by the invisbile hands pulling Abhisit strings. Reds were framed. Abhisit wasn't in the car, and invisible hands dressed up in red shirts were the ones burning buses and killing people, who were in fact evil PAD guards dressed as civilians, so they had to be shot anyway. Very droll. Just to clarify the issue - if you go back to my posts - then you might see that i have never disputed the fact that red shirts indeed have burned the buses themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 its supporters like justanothercybertosser and koo82 are persistent. ...and more white noise instead of coherent argumentation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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