sriracha john Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 its supporters like justanothercybertosser and koo82 are persistent. ...and more white noise instead of coherent argumentation... the level of argumentation provided matches your legitimacy to post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Just to clarify the issue - if you go back to my posts - then you might see that i have never disputed the fact that red shirts indeed have burned the buses themselves. Yeah, but then you blame blue shirts in Pattaya for that. How about suing MacDonalds, too? >>> The country doesn't have a problem with blue shirts running amok, and the reds refuse to accept ANY responsibility for their actions, and here, on TV we are expected to play along so that our local reds don't feel discriminated against. >>> Today Pravit wrote another ridiculous piece for the Nation. He found a new hot topic - college hazing, and quickly connected it to the illegal 2006 coup, and then shifted to his personal act of defiance by not standing up to national anthem. He even proudly claimed it's a fascist practice. Is he dememnted or simply an obsessive maniac? Why can't he just write about hazing? And that kind of stuff looks heroic in junior high, in adult world it's just plain stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammered Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Today Pravit wrote another ridiculous piece for the Nation. He found a new hot topic - college hazing, and quickly connected it to the illegal 2006 coup, and then shifted to his personal act of defiance by not standing up to national anthem. He even proudly claimed it's a fascist practice.Is he dememnted or simply an obsessive maniac? Why can't he just write about hazing? And that kind of stuff looks heroic in junior high, in adult world it's just plain stupid. I found it quite absurd how Pravit told the story of the security guard to show how clever he was. He intellectually got the better of a security guard! I guess putting down members of the lower classes is some kind of thing he enjoys. Wonder if he will now give this guy a few of his column inches to reply. Pravit also seems to be perpetuating the myth that most normal Thais are ignorant and herd followers and those from the higher echelons such as him are needed to explain what is really what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 The story is at: http://nationmultimedia.com/2009/06/17/pol...cs_30105318.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Just to clarify the issue - if you go back to my posts - then you might see that i have never disputed the fact that red shirts indeed have burned the buses themselves. Yeah, but then you blame blue shirts in Pattaya for that. How about suing MacDonalds, too? Well, it is clearly documented that the Blue Shirts did attack the red shirts in Pattaya, and were armed. We cannot dismiss proof when it doesn't suit our ideology, even if that may be news to Plus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) I found it quite absurd how Pravit told the story of the security guard to show how clever he was. He intellectually got the better of a security guard! I guess putting down members of the lower classes is some kind of thing he enjoys. Wonder if he will now give this guy a few of his column inches to reply.Pravit also seems to be perpetuating the myth that most normal Thais are ignorant and herd followers and those from the higher echelons such as him are needed to explain what is really what. I would suggest you to read the story again - it was not an ordinary security guard, but a PAD guard, in his words: "one black-clad volunteer guard of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD)" And yes, a self authorized militia harassing and intimidating people they deem not patriotic enough is fascist. More quotes from the article: This reaction caught the man off guard, and he went off to bring reinforcements so he could add extra coercive pressure. and: This reasoning baffled the volunteer guards, but they kept trying to enforce the practice of standing up even though they could not explain it. Unfortunately, the writer had to leave because he felt unsafe. Edited June 17, 2009 by justanothercybertosser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammered Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) I found it quite absurd how Pravit told the story of the security guard to show how clever he was. He intellectually got the better of a security guard! I guess putting down members of the lower classes is some kind of thing he enjoys. Wonder if he will now give this guy a few of his column inches to reply.Pravit also seems to be perpetuating the myth that most normal Thais are ignorant and herd followers and those from the higher echelons such as him are needed to explain what is really what. I would suggest you to read the story again - it was not an ordinary security guard, but a PAD guard, in his words: "one black-clad volunteer guard of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD)" And yes, a self authorized militia harassing and intimidating people they deem not patriotic enough is fascist. More quotes from the article: This reaction caught the man off guard, and he went off to bring reinforcements so he could add extra coercive pressure. and: This reasoning baffled the volunteer guards, but they kept trying to enforce the practice of standing up even though they could not explain it. Unfortunately, the writer had to leave because he felt unsafe. Pravit is still proud of his intellectual vicotry over lesser educated people. The politcal affilitiations of those involved are irrelevent in pointing this out. So, when he asked why I was not standing up, I said that having the anthem blaring was a fascist act Pravit was being deliberately controversial from the out. Say that to virtaully any Thai person and you know you wont get a freindly reply. It is also interesting that Pravit said the guard went off to bring reinforcements implying he was surrounded by some gang and then at the end: The two men obviously thought that Thais who unfailingly stand up for the national anthem automatically become more patriotic and better citizens There were only two. He went off to get his mate. Now being sarcastic, I have never known a working class guy when confronted with lets say extremely controversial intellectual challenges to maybe go and get their possibly slighlty better educated mate or just anyone for a bit of moral support. Interesting how he assumes in trying to make his politcal point he is also qualified to know what other people think. He didnt say he had asked them or that they had said it. Maybe they just think it respectful. Maybe they just think it is automatic. Maybe he just wound them up with inital declarartion the anthem was facist and otherwise nothing would have happeneed. Maybe they think anything. Who knows? I wonder if Pravit views the USA as facist state considering he links facism and hazing and fraternaties and sororities have their own hazing, bonding and initiation rites. All Pravit does in this silly piece is say he doesnt like the intiation/hazing that goes on at colleges and that he doesnt stand for the anthem, and that most Thai people dont question these practices. He could have just said that and it made his arguements without it sounding silly and patronizing. Coming from a poor working class background myself I have never appreciated the patronizing tones that people from said background often face from those that consider themselves better, better educated and just better informed. Pravit comes across as exactly this in the security guard story with his: "I told em but they were too stupid to understand (just like most of the rest of the people who dont question?) and then I left because low class men who cant intellectually debate could also be violent (another stereotype), oh plus I had bettered them and felt a nice column column coming on with which to impress my readers." Of course my assumption of what Pravit thought is just conjecture similar to the conjecture he used about the guards thoughts. However, I will fess up to this unlike Mr. Pravit. Edited June 17, 2009 by hammered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 it is clearly documented that the Blue Shirts did attack the red shirts in Pattaya, and were armed. So why did the reds attack Asean summit in retaliation, let alone Bangkok? When will they accept responsibility for their actions???? If red movement is developing at all, it's clearly retarded. And yes, that intellectual giant Pravit has shown exactly the same condescending attitude he always blames Pad and "elites" for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 When will they accept responsibility for their actions???? Maybe when the PAD and the government will show responsibility for their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Pravit was being deliberately controversial from the out. Say that to virtaully any Thai person and you know you wont get a freindly reply. Actually, Pravit was peacefully sitting in the park, and a PAD guard came over and confronted him in the first place. What authority have PAD guards over a public park? Has it come so far that a self appointed militia without any state authority can harass people, and posters here on this forum think that there is nothing wrong with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 If it had been a Red Shirt guard doing the confronting, he'd be dead and we wouldn't have his lame articles to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 If it had been a Red Shirt guard doing the confronting, he'd be dead and we wouldn't have his lame articles to read. Well, lucky for my line of argumentation that it was a PAD guard, and not a hypothetical Red Shirt guard who jumped out of SRJ's imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 When will they accept responsibility for their actions???? Maybe when the PAD and the government will show responsibility for their actions. Immature as always. What kind of kindergarten mentality is that? Why do they have to wait for PAD to apologise up for their own rioting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) Immature as always.What kind of kindergarten mentality is that? Why do they have to wait for PAD to apologise up for their own rioting? Actually, the Red Shirts are a rather diverse group. One of their top leaders, Jaran Ditapichai, has actually admitted in interviews with the media that the Red Shirts have done mistakes. I have yet not seen or heard one single leader of the PAD admitting that they done such in regards of "their own rioting". Edited June 17, 2009 by justanothercybertosser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 What about the leaders who plan the rally for this comging weekend? Will they change the tune from "we did nothing wrong and were set up"? Do edtors of Red news paper write about the need to apologise to the public? >>>> "Have done mistakes" - killed two people, tried to kill the Prime Minister, threatened folks with LPG tanks. At least that's half way to admitting a complete screw up, sadly by one member only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Do edtors of Red news paper write about the need to apologise to the public? I guess they won't apologize, the government hasn't either for its contributions to the Sonkran violence. PAD has not apologized as well for what they have done. Why do you single out the Red Shirts, yet do not see any need for their adversaries to apologize to the public? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Why do you single out the Red Shirts Because they are starting up troubles again. I wouldn't care much if it was just left in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammered Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Do edtors of Red news paper write about the need to apologise to the public? I guess they won't apologize, the government hasn't either for its contributions to the Sonkran violence. PAD has not apologized as well for what they have done. Why do you single out the Red Shirts, yet do not see any need for their adversaries to apologize to the public? Somsak (PAD party leader) has said there are good and bad things about yellow (and red) which is similar to Charan's we have made mistakes. Nobody from either has apologised and probably never will. I think Abhisit also said something about mistakes being made by government. All of these statements are open to interpretation and very limited on meaning. That is the nature of politcal speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Why do you single out the Red Shirts Because they are starting up troubles again. I wouldn't care much if it was just left in the past. Starting up troubles? Some would say that they use their constitutional right to hold demonstrations. Lets see if these demonstration will lead to trouble, or not, and which side initiates the violence in case it does indeed lead to trouble. Or has only the PAD, or whatever side you support, a right to protest in Thailand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 That is the nature of politcal speech. Yes. That is why i would not too worked up about missing apologies from just one side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Six red shirts surrender to police Six key leaders of the United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), wanted on charges of illegal assembly and inciting unrest during the Songkran riots, have on Thursday morning reported to metropolitan police division 1 commander Pol Maj Gen Wichai Sangpraphai to acknowledge the charges. They are Wiphuthalaeng Phatthanaphumthai, Suporn Atthawong, Phayab Panketh, Waipot Arpornratana, Somchai Phaibul and Phichet Sukchindathong. All of them were later released on bail. Continued: -- Bangkok Post 2009-06-18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) Former Social Development and Human Security Minister in the Thaksin Cabinet Watana Muangsuk (right) Anti-graft Panel Forwards Conclusion on Housing Project Scandal Case to Prosecutor The National Anti-Corruption Commission has forwarded a case against a former Social Development and Human Security minister to the Attorney-General's Office, recommending that a complaint be filed with the Supreme Court. The National Anti-Corruption Commission, or NACC, has recommended that charges be filed against former Social Development and Human Security Minister Wattana Muangsuk to the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Political Post Holders. Wattana is accused of asking contractors for bribes in exchange for work on a state-subsidized housing project. Previously, the now-defunct Assets Examination Committee, which had been appointed by the military government in the wake of the 2006 coup, had investigated the allegations before being dissolved. The Assets Examination Committee yesterday indicted eight individuals for corruption relating to 1.2 Billion Baht in kickbacks over construction of the Ua Athorn housing project.They included former Social Development and Human Security Minister Watana Muangsook, his aide Mana Wongpipat, and former MP Arisman Pongruangrong. "Of the 15 contractors for the Ua Athorn project, eight have been linked to the 1.2 Billion Baht in bribes and evidence has clearly shown that the minister and his middlemen demanded and received kickbacks," AEC member Kaewsan Atibhodi said. Singer-turned-politician former MP from Banned Thai Rak Thai Party and current Red Shirt Leader Arisman Phongruangrong Arisman Ponggruengrong, before (music CD cover) and after Ex-minister faces prosecution Public prosecutors agreed to recommend legal action against former Social Development and Human Security Minister Watana Muangsuk in connection with alleged irregularities involving the Ua Athon housing project, a senior prosecutor said yesterday. Deputy Attorney-General Waiyawut Lotrakul, who chairs the working group looking into a suggestion by the National Anti-Corruption Commission for legal action against Watana and six others, said that his panel would in a few days recommend Attorney-General Chaisakem Nitisiri to pursue the case. If the Attorney-General agrees to the recommendation, prosecutors will file a petition with the Supreme Court's Division on Political Office Holders, Waiyawut said. If the Attorney-General thinks that some of the accused should be spared, prosecutors will discuss further action with the NACC. Watana and five other people, including former MP Arisman Pongruangrong and one private company, are accused of malfeasance in connection with the controversial project. Government Housing Project in Chiang Mai Left Deserted A large number of houses available through the government's housing project in Chiang Mai Province have been deserted, as only 29 homes have been occupied. A report has shown that many homes in the government's housing or Baan Ua-Arthorn project in Sanpatong district of Chiang Mai province have been deserted since the project was opened last year. The report revealed that 29 homes have been occupied, while another 636 residences have been left deserted. Residents who have moved into their houses after the project was opened said the project provided regular services such as security, gardening, and environmental control. But they say all services have ceased for a year and there was no longer any management. They had asked the National Housing Authority to remain responsible for the project, but they received no response. Meanwhile, the government housing office in Chiang Mai province admitted that only 30 houses in the project were sold as most of the reservations were canceled after the loan requests were rejected by the banks. -- Tan Network 2009-06-18 Edited June 18, 2009 by sriracha john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Starting up troubles?Some would say that they use their constitutional right to hold demonstrations. These hypocrites demands constitutional protection but as soon as they got the chance they tried to kill the PM, among other things. No benefit of doubt to this bunch, they are peaceful only when contained by overwhelming force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Police Charge Five Red-Shirt Leaders for Songkran Riot Five leaders of the pro-Thaksin red-shirt group reported to police to face charges for their roles in the Songkran Day riot. Five core leaders of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship, or DAAD, namely Suporn Attawong, Wiputhalaeng Patanaphumthai, Payap Panket, Somchai Paibul and Pichet Sukitjindathong, today reported to police to face charges related to their involvement in the violent anti-government protests on April 13-15. They met with Metropolitan Police Division One Commander Police Major General Wichai Sangprapai to formally acknowledge the charges, including inciting unrest and causing public disturbance. All of the accused denied the charges and were released on bail guaranteed by 8 Pheu Thai Party MPs. During their presence at the police division, the DAAD leaders also held a lighted lamp, claiming they want to enlighten police for their use of double standards and mistreatment against the red-shirt group. Around a hundred red-shirt supporters gathered at the police headquarters to give moral support to the five suspects. In a related development, a large number of DAAD supporters from several northern provinces attended the rally held in Phayao Province last night. Several red-shirt leaders took turn to speak on the stage. One of the highlights at the gathering was the phoned-in speech by ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra. During the phone-in, Thaksin promised his supporters that he will continue with his political struggle. But Thaksin said he cannot return to the country for safety reasons. He also blamed the 2007 charter for preventing him from returning. DAAD's network in northern provinces reportedly plans to hold activities to mark the birthday of Thaksin on July 26. -- Tan Network 2009-06-18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 flame post removed. Do not resort to name calling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 One of the highlights at the gathering was the phoned-in speech by ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra. DAAD's network in northern provinces reportedly plans to hold activities to mark the birthday of Thaksin on July 26. It would seem that the claims that the Red Shirts being about much more than Thaksin are extremely hollow... and false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Ex-Finance Minister insists on legality of rubber sapling program Former Deputy Prime Minister Somkid Jatusriphitak today gave his testimony over the controversial rubber sapling project at the Supreme Court’s Division for Cases Against Political Office-Holders. Somkid appeared at the court to testify in the corruption case in the purchase of 90 million rubber saplings, initiated by the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives during the now-defunct Thai Rak Thai Party's administration. He claimed that none of the committee expressed opposition over the approved 1.4 billion baht budget during the meeting since they believed the Agriculture and Cooperatives Ministry would be able to repay the amount of money. The National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC) filed charges against the former Deputy Prime Minister Rubber saplings trial verdict on August 17 The Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions says it will hand down its verdict in the corruption case involving the Agriculture Ministry's project to acquire 90 million rubber saplings worth 1.44 Billion Baht on August 17 at 2 pm. The case was initially filed by the Assets Scrutiny Committee. The National Anti-Corruption Commission took over the case after the ASC's term expired. Jesda Nucharee, an NACC lawyer, said the court completed examination of witnesses on June 16. It ordered the two sides in the case to submit their closing statements by August 11 and then set August 17 to give the verdict. There are 54 defendants in this case, including Cabinet ministers in a government under former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra. Continued here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/1...-case-on-aug-17 -- Bangkok Post 2009-06-18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 One of the highlights at the gathering was the phoned-in speech by ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra. DAAD's network in northern provinces reportedly plans to hold activities to mark the birthday of Thaksin on July 26. It would seem that the claims that the Red Shirts being about much more than Thaksin are extremely hollow... and false. That's a fallacy. Being more than just about Thaksin does not mean that Thaksin is not included as a very important figure and symbol for aspirations for people. One may like or dislike Thaksin, but one should respect the right of these people to have chosen him in elections. Especially for upcountry Red Shirts this is whole thing is very much about Thaksin, and not because he "bought" them, but because he was the first PM that has substantially improved their lives, and through his "populism" has created the impression to be there for them (it is secondary that this of course was a strategy and not altruism). Only the lack of vision of Democrat governments made it possible for a deeply faulty figure like Thaksin to be able to become the first elected PM in Thailand that stayed a whole period, was elected again, and would have won at least one more election if he would not have been ousted by a coup. Why should the Red Shirts drop Thaksin, when people do still support him? It is their bloody right. What gives you, or anybody else decide what they are supposed to support, and what not? But that it is not just about Thaksin becomes clear when you listen to the many speaches that deal with topics such as equal opportunities, social justice, democracy, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) One of the highlights at the gathering was the phoned-in speech by ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra. DAAD's network in northern provinces reportedly plans to hold activities to mark the birthday of Thaksin on July 26. It would seem that the claims that the Red Shirts being about much more than Thaksin are extremely hollow... and false. That's a fallacy. No, it isn't. The claims were false. If he is the "highlight" of a rally, he is playing a major role. He maintains a significant presence to the point of being the main focus and this is something that some have tried to paint as he is only marginalized or a small focus of this group. Why should the Red Shirts drop Thaksin, when people do still support him? It is their bloody right. What gives you, or anybody else decide what they are supposed to support, and what not?But that it is not just about Thaksin becomes clear when you listen to the many speaches that deal with topics such as equal opportunities, social justice, democracy, etc. I never told them they should drop Thaksin... Although the political wing of the Red Shirts, the Pheu Thai Party, might want to after Chalerm named him as the Party Leader and his photo is plastered all over political campaign literature which the Election Commission is now being asked to evaluate for his level of political involvement whilst being banned (refer to the Pheu Thai Party Disarray thread). Perhaps when the PTP have shown themselves to distance itself from Thaksin for legal purposes, the Red Shirts might actually begin to be believable that Thaksin is not their main focus. Edited June 19, 2009 by sriracha john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justanothercybertosser Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 No, it isn't. The claims were false. If he is the "highlight" of a rally, he is playing a major role. He maintains a significant presence to the point of being the main focus and this is something that some have tried to paint as he is only marginalized or a small focus of this group. The PTP is a party in complete disarray since their most able politicians have been banned, and things are only bound to get worse, looking at the miserable quality of politicians left. There of course are strong overlaps between the PTP and the Red Shirts, yet they are separate entities. Thaksin indeed is a major focus of the Red Shirts (i never doubted this), but not the sole focus, as many opponents try to make it out. It does sound like a contradiction to use the terms 'Thaksin' and 'Democracy' in the same sentence, and if looked at from the view of a developed democracy the two are not combinable. Thailand though is an emerging democracy, and in this warped situation, Thaksin does symbolize for many sectors of society 'Democracy'. And that is mostly because of the immense failures of the Democrats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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