Double Standard In Thailand

[ozzydom]

Posters like dbrenn educate us all with honest, straightforward posts that teach us what is going on behind the scenes in Thai politics.

Bless you dbrenn.

Wipe your nose UG ,that brown stuff is disgusting.

[Pierrot]

I didn't assume that all Thais were born equal. I was saying that if you go back 5-10 generations between someone with the last name of Sophonpanich and one name Krakatoke, you'd find that their ancestors were living relatively humble daily wage type lives. There was a time when the playing field was more level (but I don't believe that any playing field is completely level), and that those who figured how how to run it first are the ones who got to run with it the whole way. They didn't suddenly become the elite overnight... it took generations. The same way that it would and should take generations for someone born into grinding poverty to transcend their class. What makes them deserving of a short cut?

Very good post ! Difficult to make things more clear.

Everybody should read this post again and again and understand what it means.

[Pierrot]

Posters like dbrenn educate us all with honest, straightforward posts that teach us what is going on behind the scenes in Thai politics.

Bless you dbrenn.

Wipe your nose UG ,that brown stuff is disgusting.

Smart post. Maybe you should consider sticking with the farming forum, your advises are very much appreciated ... there !

[bertlamar]

I didn't assume that all Thais were born equal. I was saying that if you go back 5-10 generations between someone with the last name of Sophonpanich and one name Krakatoke, you'd find that their ancestors were living relatively humble daily wage type lives. There was a time when the playing field was more level (but I don't believe that any playing field is completely level), and that those who figured how how to run it first are the ones who got to run with it the whole way. They didn't suddenly become the elite overnight... it took generations. The same way that it would and should take generations for someone born into grinding poverty to transcend their class. What makes them deserving of a short cut?

Very good post ! Difficult to make things more clear.

Everybody should read this post again and again and understand what it means.

Exactly.

Given the Shinwatra's documented 3X wealth accumulation during their tenure at the helm, and major profit taking far in excess of the amounts they ever personally contributed to the rural poor, one can see that the so called 'Elite' and the so called 'Man of the People' are indeed for the most part one and the same.

however, in order to vilify, it is appropriate apparently to suggest that someone educated abroad and well versed in english is no longer a man of the people; it is a great way to think as it suggests that anyone like Abhisit cannot be a man of the people, as he is too well educated.

Of course, one might be cynical and point out that the majority of successful countries worldwide tend to be run by well educated PMs/cabinets, and that in general the entire reason to get an education rather than spending the money on something else would be to get ahead.

But it is easier and simpler to come up with a convoluted way to explain how the Shinawatra family is somehow not 'elite' despite being one of the richest and well established families from the north of Thailand with the same fancy foreign education and state supported/protected businesses, and somehow their equivalents elsewhere are.

I suppose at least he can speak northern dialect when up north, but quite how the idea that because Abhisit doesn't speak right to the poor people that they don't trust him seems odd to say the least; do the poor want the Thai equivalent of a Chav from the housing projects with a BSC (bronze swimming certificate) or would they rather have they type of guy who can speak as an equal with PMs and presidents around the world to get the trade deals and business that Thailand needs rather than just bending over. We've tried the man of the people approach back inthe Banharn days....don't work so hot.

BTW numerous Isaan families have become wealthy and successful as have numerous upcountry folk from other cities such as Suphanburi and Banharn's mob. I don't think people dispute healthcare is a good thing, and so the 30b scheme basically remains with some tweaks to make it workable. The point is whether giving the handouts of the freebie village fund type nature and the cheap loans ever really improved things compared to the more difficult 'hard yards' like education, infrastructure, cultural change, etc.

It can easily happen within a generation or two; the question is....what has each government done to make it easier for that to occur? The one that probably reduced the chances culturally the most would have to be the TRT years - as they gave out freebies in a time when world commodity prices were sky high. On the flip side, they also built a lot of roading infrastrcuture in the areas that voted TRT, so you cannot fault them completely. Healthcare, even if totally corrupt, was a great plan.

THe next government needs to take the bad out, and keep the good going. It isn't important which party, but what policies.

That is what defines stable government; if we have flip flops then nothing occurs; even in USA the flip flop from Democrat to Republican is for the most part, not so great.

[dbrenn]

I didn't assume that all Thais were born equal. I was saying that if you go back 5-10 generations between someone with the last name of Sophonpanich and one name Krakatoke, you'd find that their ancestors were living relatively humble daily wage type lives. There was a time when the playing field was more level (but I don't believe that any playing field is completely level), and that those who figured how how to run it first are the ones who got to run with it the whole way. They didn't suddenly become the elite overnight... it took generations. The same way that it would and should take generations for someone born into grinding poverty to transcend their class. What makes them deserving of a short cut?

Nothing makes anyone deserving of a short cut to success Heng, but there should at least be a way forward for anyone who has the talent and the drive, rather than the elite hogging all the spoils and running a feudal system as a country simply because they think it is their birth right.

For you to say that it would and should take generations to make it to the top, presumably because that is the way it's always been, is becoming a rather out-of-date way of thinking, and is a cause of the simmering discontent that we now see boiling to the surface. There is such a lot of wasted potential in Thailand - people who could have gone on to great things. Potential that has too long been quashed and kept subdued by an antiquated system that makes it so very much harder than it could, and should, be for a Thai of humble origins to gain access to the tools necessary to succeed. Like education, healthcare, and financial assistance, for example.

We have seen examples of Thais on both sides of the political spectrum transcend the class barrier through hard work and luck. Chuan Leekpai grew up in a hut in Trang, and made it to be the PM for the Democrats. You could say similar things about Thaksin too - he came from relatively humble roots, the merchant class of an immigrant family, worked hard, and made it to the top. The interesting contrast was that Chuan's government was ineffectual, and gave nothing back to the people, whereas Thaksin's bunch did invest in the population in a way that had not been seen before. Looking back, it's easy to see why the masses like Thaksin - he was the PM who took the most active interest in their development, while all Chuan and the Democrats could do was keep the majority in poverty. Abhisit has an uphill struggle, because of the failures of his Democrat predecessor, and because he is seen by the masses as futilely trying to copy what his clique took away from the people, when it deposed the Thaksinite government that they had elected, and re-elected.

What the Thai public deserves, and now demands, is a government that invests in the future of its citizens, so that we see more talent coming into the mainstream from all walks of life, and not being kept down at heel by an arrogant and autocratic elite, as has been the case in Thailand for far too long. The red problem won't go away until that happens.

Edited April 20, 2009 by dbrenn

[Heng]

Nothing makes anyone deserving of a short cut to success Heng, but there should at least be a way forward for anyone who has the talent and the drive, rather than the elite hogging all the spoils and running a feudal system as a country simply because they think it is their birth right.

Yes, that "way" forward is harvesting your talent and drive and not expecting that someone else will do it for you. Small achievable goals, no different than how good parents allow/help children develop, only you do it for yourself and your own family.

For you to say that it would and should take generations to make it to the top, presumably because that is the way it's always been, is becoming a rather out-of-date way of thinking, and is a cause of the simmering discontent that we now see boiling to the surface. There is such a lot of wasted potential in Thailand - people who could have gone on to great things. Potential that has too long been quashed and kept subdued by an antiquated system that makes it so very much harder than it could, and should, be for a Thai of humble origins to gain access to the tools necessary to succeed. Like education, healthcare, and financial assistance, for example.

You take my 'should' too literally. I don't mean it as a blanket generalization that that should be the rule. I mean that like building a fortune, it usually doesn't happen overnight. If there are a few sparks that ignite and are able to transcend class within a generation, then more power to them. The haves generally didn't get to where they are overnight. The tools that they had to work with were just as dull and difficult to maneuver as they are now. When I hear people complain about the system keeping them down, it's like hearing people complain: *that water still boils at 100 degrees centigrade, the same as 100+ years ago, and that's WHY I can't fix myself a cup of coffee! In fact, I'm pretty sure the elites are keeping it that way too! It's time for change.* I think it helps if people stopped imagining a "have" to be a guy with dozens of homes, a couple of factories, and minority holdings in several public listed companies, etc. Try to imagine a "have" to be a person with ONE home, no debt, and a small business which he runs with two employees, both of whom are relatives. I simply don't see a concerted effort on the part of any group in society that is trying (more less could ever succeed) in keeping people from achieving that. But those lesser 'haves' would already be more successful than a billion people on the planet. Not to mention what a great springboard such a basic foundation is for the next generation.

-

political comment snipped... Myself I don't follow politics much and try not to delve too deeply into that pool. It distracts me from focusing on keeping my own family on the right side of the tracks, which again IMO has more to do with the decisions that I make than what some guy in a plush office in Bangkok whom I've never met makes.

What the Thai public deserves, and now demands, is a government that invests in the future of its citizens, so that we see more talent coming into the mainstream from all walks of life, and not being kept down at heel by an arrogant and autocratic elite, as has been the case in Thailand for far too long. The red problem won't go away until that happens.

I've said it before, life isn't a national team sport. I think people will find that they will like life's results MUCH more if one re-words your statement above like this... *What a typical Thai family deserves are family members that invest in the future of their family, so that they are able to maximize whatever talents and skills they possess, and so that they can take their destinies into their own hands, and not trying to blame external factors over which they have no control whether it's karma from previous lives, imagined spirits in rocks and trees, waiting for an extremely statistically improbable lottery win, or waiting on the actions of total strangers with whom for some reason they have sacrificed the control over their destinies to, as has been the case in Thailand (and many other places in the world) for far too long.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Heng

[dbrenn]

Yes, that "way" forward is harvesting your talent and drive and not expecting that someone else will do it for you. Small achievable goals, no different than how good parents allow/help children develop, only you do it for yourself and your own family.

Agreed, but it is the government's responsibility to facilitate, rather than thwart, the progress of its citizens. As stated previously, I am in no way saying that people should sit back and wait for the state to make them successful. What I am saying is that the state should work on the behalf of the majority of the population, not a select few.

You take my 'should' too literally. I don't mean it as a blanket generalization that that should be the rule. I mean that like building a fortune, it usually doesn't happen overnight. If there are a few sparks that ignite and are able to transcend class within a generation, then more power to them. The haves generally didn't get to where they are overnight. The tools that they had to work with were just as dull and difficult to maneuver as they are now. When I hear people complain about the system keeping them down, it's like hearing people complain: *that water still boils at 100 degrees centigrade, the same as 100+ years ago, and that's WHY I can't fix myself a cup of coffee! In fact, I'm pretty sure the elites are keeping it that way too! It's time for change.* I think it helps if people stopped imagining a "have" to be a guy with dozens of homes, a couple of factories, and minority holdings in several public listed companies, etc. Try to imagine a "have" to be a person with ONE home, no debt, and a small business which he runs with two employees, both of whom are relatives. I simply don't see a concerted effort on the part of any group in society that is trying (more less could ever succeed) in keeping people from achieving that. But those lesser 'haves' would already be more successful than a billion people on the planet. Not to mention what a great springboard such a basic foundation is for the next generation.

That does sound rather defeatist, that we should never question the system and never blame it for hampering individual progress, or the progress of the nation as a whole. While what you say is true in the case of people who are lazy and are looking to blame the system because they refuse to blame themselves. I think that those people are in a small minority. There are a great many others in Thailand who are poor, and who are very obviously exploited by a system of patronage, and who are trapped by a system that works against them by depriving them of an education, healthcare, and other basic assistance in helping themselves break free from the poverty trap. For you to say that all these people have to do is work their way out of the situation, ignores the fact that it is impossible in many cases for them to do so.

political comment snipped... Myself I don't follow politics much and try not to delve too deeply into that pool. It distracts me from focusing on keeping my own family on the right side of the tracks, which again IMO has more to do with the decisions that I make than what some guy in a plush office in Bangkok whom I've never met makes.

You are very fortunate to be in a position not to have to follow politics. For some less fortunate people, a democratic political system is the only way that they can participate in modelling the future of the country that they live in.

I've said it before, life isn't a national team sport. I think people will find that they will like life's results MUCH more if one re-words your statement above like this... *What a typical Thai family deserves are family members that invest in the future of their family, so that they are able to maximize whatever talents and skills they possess, and so that they can take their destinies into their own hands, and not trying to blame external factors over which they have no control whether it's karma from previous lives, imagined spirits in rocks and trees, waiting for an extremely statistically improbable lottery win, or waiting on the actions of total strangers with whom for some reason they have sacrificed the control over their destinies to, as has been the case in Thailand (and many other places in the world) for far too long.

I disagree. There are a lot of very bright people in Thailand, who are prevented from succeeding by governments that couldn't care less about their plight. There are three factors to individual development - the potential of the individual, the will of the individual, and the support that individual receives from those above him or her.

You only acknowledge the first two factors, and it is this mindset that has hald Thailand back for far too long now. I am happy to see that Thais are no longer blaming Karma for their stunted progress - they are hoding their masters to account.

[TonySoprano]

While its obviously much easier to be a poor kid in the USA who gets his school paid for or loaned and makes the jump from poor kid to educated professional than in Thailand, in Thailand its much easier to start a successful small business that they can then continue to expand. When minimum wage is 150 baht a day, it does not take George Soros to figure out ways to make money.

Edited April 21, 2009 by TonySoprano

[ballbreaker]

I disagree. There are a lot of very bright people in Thailand, who are prevented from succeeding by governments that couldn't care less about their plight.

Could you please explain to me what the government is doing to prevent these people from succeeding?

[dbrenn]

I disagree. There are a lot of very bright people in Thailand, who are prevented from succeeding by governments that couldn't care less about their plight.

Could you please explain to me what the government is doing to prevent these people from succeeding?

First let's take a look at what successive governments were seen to be not doing:

1) Educating the majority of its people, leaving it up to them to provide even the most basic schooling for their children, and

2) Offering financial assistance to those who fall on hard times, so that their kids can stay in school, and

3) Offering financial assistance to people with good ideas, who want to start a businees and fend for themselves, and

4) Providing a basic level of health care

And here is what the powers that be are seen to be doing:

1) Expelling governments that are elected by the people on the basis that they provide these basic necessities, and

2) Calling the masses 'uneducated' and not deserving of their vote

I think it's fair to say that the traditionalists are not doing enough to progress the lives of the Thai general public, and that Thaksin's lot had made at least some concrete steps in the right direction. If the yellow lot were seen as representing a better life for the masses, then we wouldn't be seeing growing discontent and riots that are looking more and more like a class war. If you haven't noticed this, then I suspect that you haven't been in Thailand for very long.

Edited April 21, 2009 by dbrenn

[ozzydom]

I didn't assume that all Thais were born equal. I was saying that if you go back 5-10 generations between someone with the last name of Sophonpanich and one name Krakatoke, you'd find that their ancestors were living relatively humble daily wage type lives. There was a time when the playing field was more level (but I don't believe that any playing field is completely level), and that those who figured how how to run it first are the ones who got to run with it the whole way. They didn't suddenly become the elite overnight... it took generations. The same way that it would and should take generations for someone born into grinding poverty to transcend their class. What makes them deserving of a short cut?

Nothing makes anyone deserving of a short cut to success Heng, but there should at least be a way forward for anyone who has the talent and the drive, rather than the elite hogging all the spoils and running a feudal system as a country simply because they think it is their birth right.

For you to say that it would and should take generations to make it to the top, presumably because that is the way it's always been, is becoming a rather out-of-date way of thinking, and is a cause of the simmering discontent that we now see boiling to the surface. There is such a lot of wasted potential in Thailand - people who could have gone on to great things. Potential that has too long been quashed and kept subdued by an antiquated system that makes it so very much harder than it could, and should, be for a Thai of humble origins to gain access to the tools necessary to succeed. Like education, healthcare, and financial assistance, for example.

We have seen examples of Thais on both sides of the political spectrum transcend the class barrier through hard work and luck. Chuan Leekpai grew up in a hut in Trang, and made it to be the PM for the Democrats. You could say similar things about Thaksin too - he came from relatively humble roots, the merchant class of an immigrant family, worked hard, and made it to the top. The interesting contrast was that Chuan's government was ineffectual, and gave nothing back to the people, whereas Thaksin's bunch did invest in the population in a way that had not been seen before. Looking back, it's easy to see why the masses like Thaksin - he was the PM who took the most active interest in their development, while all Chuan and the Democrats could do was keep the majority in poverty. Abhisit has an uphill struggle, because of the failures of his Democrat predecessor, and because he is seen by the masses as futilely trying to copy what his clique took away from the people, when it deposed the Thaksinite government that they had elected, and re-elected.

What the Thai public deserves, and now demands, is a government that invests in the future of its citizens, so that we see more talent coming into the mainstream from all walks of life, and not being kept down at heel by an arrogant and autocratic elite, as has been the case in Thailand for far too long. The red problem won't go away until that happens.

Quote from Wikipedia/

Family background

Thaksin's great-grandfather Seng Sae Khu was a Hakka Chinese immigrant from Meizhou, Guangdong who arrived in Siam in the 1860s and settled in Chiang Mai in 1908. His eldest son, Chiang Sae Khu, was born in 1890 and married a Thai woman, Saeng Somna. Chiang's eldest son, Sak, adopted the Thai surname Shinawatra ("does good routinely") in 1938, and the rest of the family followed suit.

Thaksin's father, Lert, was born in Chiang Mai in 1919 and married Yindi Ramingwong. In 1968, Lert Shinawatra entered politics and became an MP for Chiang Mai.

Seng Sae Khu made his fortune through tax farming. The Khu/Shinawatra family later founded Shinawatra Silks and then moved into finance, construction and property development. Lert Shinawatra opened a coffee shop and several businesses, and grew oranges and flowers in Chiang Mai's San Kamphaeng district. By the time Thaksin was born, the Shinawatra family was one of the richest and most influential in Chiang Mai.

Early life

Thaksin was born in San Kamphaeng, Chiang Mai. He grew up in the village of Sankamphaeng until he was 15 and then moved to Chiang Mai city to study at Montfort College. At 16, he helped run one of his father's cinemas.[23]

Police career

Thaksin attended the 10th class of the Armed Forces Academies Preparatory School[24] and the Thai Police Cadet Academy. Upon graduation in 1973 he joined the Royal Thai Police Department. He obtained a master's degree in Criminal Justice from Eastern Kentucky University in the United States in 1975 and three years later a doctorate in Criminal Justice at Sam Houston State University in Texas. Returning to Thailand, he reached the position of Deputy Superintendent of the Policy and Planning Sub-division, General Staff Division, Metropolitan Police Bureau, before resigning in 1987 as a lieutenant colonel. He married Potjaman Damapong, daughter of a police general, in 1980.[25]

Business career

Early ventures

Thaksin and his wife ventured into several businesses while he was still in the police, including a silk shop, a movie theater, and an apartment building. All were failures and left him over 50 million Baht in debt. He established ICSI in 1982 and, using his police contacts, leased computers to government agencies with modest success. But later ventures in security systems (SOS) and public bus radio services (Bus Sound) failed.[26][27]

In 1987 he resigned from the police. Afterwards, he marketed a romance drama called "Baan Sai Thong", which became a popular success in theaters. [28][29] In 1988 he joined Pacific Telesis to operate and market the PacLink pager service, a modest success although Thaksin later sold his stake to establish his own paging company.[26][30] In 1989 Thaksin launched IBC, a cable television company, which lost money and later merged with the CP Group's UTV.[26][31] In 1989, Thaksin established a data networking service, Shinawatra DataCom,[26] today known as Advanced Data Network and owned by AIS and the TOT.[32] Many of Thaksin's businesses were later consolidated as Shin Corp.

Hardly humble roots.

[ballbreaker]

I disagree. There are a lot of very bright people in Thailand, who are prevented from succeeding by governments that couldn't care less about their plight.

Could you please explain to me what the government is doing to prevent these people from succeeding?

First let's take a look at what successive governments were seen to be not doing:

1) Educating the majority of its people, leaving it up to them to provide even the most basic schooling for their children, and

Agree the Thai government should be doing a better job on education.

2) Offering financial assistance to those who fall on hard times, so that their kids can stay in school, and

Great idea but are the Thai people ready to pay the taxes to support such programs.

3) Offering financial assistance to people with good ideas, who want to start a businees and fend for themselves, and

In some countries perhaps but generally its the role of banks and venture capitalist to take on such roles.

4) Providing a basic level of health care

Thailand does have that, thanks to Thaksin, but he also wanted Thailand to become a medical care destination for the world which stripped the public

system of many of their personnel.

And here is what the powers that be are seen to be doing:

1) Expelling governments that are elected by the people on the basis that they provide these basic necessities, and

If done through a legal process then I see no problem but if by coup then thats another story.

2) Calling the masses 'uneducated' and not deserving of their vote

Your using a broad brush and thats like me saying every poor person backs Thaksin, and you and I both know thats not true.

I think it's fair to say that the traditionalists are not doing enough to progress the lives of the Thai general public, and that Thaksin's lot had made at least some concrete steps in the right direction. If the yellow lot were seen as representing a better life for the masses, then we wouldn't be seeing growing discontent and riots that are looking more and more like a class war. If you haven't noticed this, then I suspect that you haven't been in Thailand for very long.

If the people truely want these things then it should start at the grass root level not in the streets of Bangkok. Each district, or whatever its called in Thailand, has an elected MP so why aren't his constituents demanding he get his act together or he is out next election. Instead they chose to follow a pied piper who threw them a few bread crumbs while he took the loaf.

[thaihome]

First let's take a look at what successive governments were seen to be not doing:

1) Educating the majority of its people, leaving it up to them to provide even the most basic schooling for their children, and

2) Offering financial assistance to those who fall on hard times, so that their kids can stay in school, and

3) Offering financial assistance to people with good ideas, who want to start a businees and fend for themselves, and

4) Providing a basic level of health care

And here is what the powers that be are seen to be doing:

1) Expelling governments that are elected by the people on the basis that they provide these basic necessities, and

2) Calling the masses 'uneducated' and not deserving of their vote

I think it's fair to say that the traditionalists are not doing enough to progress the lives of the Thai general public, and that Thaksin's lot had made at least some concrete steps in the right direction. If the yellow lot were seen as representing a better life for the masses, then we wouldn't be seeing growing discontent and riots that are looking more and more like a class war. If you haven't noticed this, then I suspect that you haven't been in Thailand for very long.

You have done an excellent job of overlaying your western liberal values on the Thai socioeconomic and political situation and you articulate it well. I bet you read every BBC article on Thailand and get all bent out shape with the unfairness of it all.

But the reality of what is actually going on could not more different.

The Thai urban middle class are not the ones holding the rural poor down. It is their very own local leaders that are doing that. People like Somsak Thepsutin, Suriya Jungrungreangkit, Sanoh Thienthong, Phinij Jarusombat, Suwat Liptapanlop, Pongsak Raktapongpisak, and most notorious, the famous Newin Chidchob. All these people have absolute political and economic control of the their home provinces and districts. People vote how they tell them to do so, often this is accompanied with a small fee for doing so. To do otherwise or to challenge their power can be extremely detrimental to your health. Everyone of these people have serially switched sides to whichever coalition can give them the most. Thaksin bought them all to form the TRT. Ideology had nothing to do with it. If you have not seen this, then however long you have lived in Thailand, you have had blinders on the whole time.

Let’s look at some real examples:

Education – Provided free in rural schools all over Thailand. But, you must buy uniforms from the store owned by local bigshots family, if it is too far to walk and you have no other means, there is a songtoew, owned by the local bigshot that will do so for a small fee. The hidden costs go on and on and it all ends up in some one elses pocket. So who is holding back kids getting educated?

Infrastructure Projects- Roads, irrigation, drainage projects (funded by taxes paid by the urban middle class) are all done by construction companies owned by the local bigshots, who pay the local politicians to get the project and therefore must cut cost (read quality) in order to make the money they expect. Want to get a job? Well, then you have to pay a kickback to the local TAO member who will get you one. Again, who is holding back people?

SME Loans- Controlled by the TAO, you want a loan? Be prepared to pay a kickback, and heaven forbid you compete with a business they own.

This is not struggle between the poor and rich. This is a struggle between the upcountry feudal lords that have been raping the country for the past 8 years and the urban middle class that is fed up with it.

TH

Edited April 21, 2009 by thaihome

[dbrenn]

You have done an excellent job of overlaying your western liberal values on the Thai socioeconomic and political situation and you articulate it well. I bet you read every BBC article on Thailand and get all bent out shape with the unfairness of it all.

It's not whether my nose is bent out of shape here that matters. All I am doing in this thread is making an observation that millions of noses seem to be have put out of shape, as is evidenced by a descending spiral of unrest, and I am suggesting that the reasons for this problem go far deeper than Thaksin. All Thaksin seems to have done is unleash a force that was already there in the first place. An earler poster highlighted this, when he pointed out that hatred of Thaksin is most likely a diversion to take attention away from the underlying problem. This is more a Thai concept than a Western one. My own political views, which are actually more conserative than liberal, are irrelevant to this discussion.

The Thai urban middle class are not the ones holding the rural poor down. It is their very own local leaders that are doing that. People like Somsak Thepsutin, Suriya Jungrungreangkit, Sanoh Thienthong, Phinij Jarusombat, Suwat Liptapanlop, Pongsak Raktapongpisak, and most notorious, the famous Newin Chidchob. All these people have absolute political and economic control of the their home provinces and districts. People vote how they tell them to do so, often this is accompanied with a small fee for doing so. To do otherwise or to challenge their power can be extremely detrimental to your health. Everyone of these people have serially switched sides to whichever coalition can give them the most. Thaksin bought them all to form the TRT. Ideology had nothing to do with it. If you have not seen this, then however long you have lived in Thailand, you have had blinders on the whole time.

I don't think I have claimed that the Thai urban middle class are holding the poor down all by themselves. They just want the status quo to be maintained, where they own the poor, perhaps without even realising it. It is this whole system of patronage that the rural folk are growing tired of, and is the very same system to which other sectors of the Thai population support - the urban people being part, but let's not forget the army, the bureacrats, and all the local leaders that you mentioned.

Thaksin, probably without even realising it, gave the poor an unprecedented level of representation - he made them feel that they had control of their destiny in a way that they had never enjoyed before, and that they no longer had to passively and blindly submit to whoever was placed above them by the system. This change was subtle at first, but it has ended up challenging the whole way that things are done in Thailand, threatening to destabilise the system of patronage and crossing a line that can not be redrawn. How do we know this? There are now two groups fighting each other, and there appears to be no referee that can stop them as was always the case until now. People now seem to have a mind of their own, and are questioning why they have to submit to authority and whatever leaders it places above them while ignoring their democratic choice - albeit a flawed one. People are demanding leaders that actually help them, not just talk about it.

Let's look at some real examples:

Education – ...

Infrastructure Projects- ...

SME Loans- ...

This is not struggle between the poor and rich. This is a struggle between the upcountry feudal lords that have been raping the country for the past 8 years and the urban middle class that is fed up with it.

TH

The feudal lords that make it so hard for people to access inadequate and poor quality public services are all part of the system of patronage that Thaksin unwittingly started to unwind by providing a greater level of support from the central government. Although he bypassed the feudal lords at the local level, he recognised them and recruited a lot of them into his government, as is normal in Thai politics, and politics everywhere. You can't govern until you control the local councils.

Change will not be immediate, but it is difficult to see how it will be reversed, now that the people have had a taste of direct control over the central government and have enjoyed the feeling of discarding their unwanted owners at the ballot box, and choosing their masters instead. The urban people couldn't care less about the feudal lords per se, so long as the status quo is maintained. It was Thaksin who triggered the yellow people, not the feudal lords who have been around for years.

On a completely different topic, and I'm not saying that this applies to you, but I suppose that there are many foreigners who benefit from patronage too - it's what keeps Thailand such a cheap place to live, provides the servants, the girls, and so on.

Edited April 21, 2009 by dbrenn

[thaihome]

“The feudal lords that make it so hard for people to access basic services are all part of the system of patronage that Thaksin unwittingly started to unwind by providing a greater level of support from the central government. Although he bypassed the feudal lords at the local level, he recognised them and recruited a lot of them into his government, as is normal in Thai politics, and politics everywhere. You can't govern until you control the local councils.

Change will not be immediate, but it is difficult to see how it will be reversed, now that the people have had a taste of direct control over the central government and have enjoyed the feeling of disguarding their owners and choosing their masters instead. The urban people couldn't care less about the feudal lords per se, so long as the status quo is maintained. It was Thaksin who triggered the yellow people, not the feudal lords who have been around for years.”

These are the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard about Thaksin and only reinforce my statement that you have overlaid a western liberal bias onto the Thai political landscape of today. If anything, he the pushed patronage system to the breaking point (hence the creation of the PAD). You continue to falsely believe that Thaksin actually started a populist movement that was some how outside normal Thai politics. He did not. Where do see that Thaksin bypassed the local patrons? May I suggest you read who were the members of the TRT? They are exactly the people I mentioned. Thaksin paid them huge amounts of money to join his new party and to bring the votes they controlled. He paid them back with all the projects everyone thinks were so great. Most poor people don't actually belong to a party. At best they are clients of a faction and get some personal benefit for being so. Most are just happy to get the 500 baht every election.

You might also do some research on the governmental system in Thailand. “Local councils” (actually called the TAO’s) have no ruling authority. There are no local laws, just what comes out of the parliament and various central government departments. The 1997 constitution gave the TAO’s the ability for the first time to spend money given by the central governemnt. Out of this, Thaksin saw a way to corrupt the intent of the constitution by bribing the local political leaders into joining the TRT with promise of money flowing back into the TAO’s in return. It was a brilliant political move, but the people footing the bill could only take so much.

You completely ignored my point that the leadership of the UDD are local feudal lords that are keeping the people down. These people paid the locals (my understanding is the going rate was 1k baht a day) to come to Bangkok and raise hel_l, something many of them were more then willing to forgo there Songkron week to do.

The poor are the pawns in all this, and people like you, that for some reason, continue to believe this is a spontaneous reaction from a group of underprivileged that have had enough, is just perpetuating a propaganda myth that Thaksin has paid huge amounts of money to develop and perpetuate. For western liberals such as yourself, you cannot bring yourself to believe that rural poor in Thailand would allow themselves to be manipulated like this and are just doing it for the money.

Sorry, but that’s the reality.

TH

[dbrenn]

These are the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard about Thaksin and only reinforce my statement that you have overlaid a western liberal bias

I could just as easily say that your assumptions that my source of information is the BBC and that I am a liberal are ridiculous, but that wouldn't get us anywhere, would it? We all know what they say about assumptions, and I could retort to yours at a similarly valid level by declaring that your only source of information is the propaganda that you read in the Bangkok Post and the Nation, and that the brief history of Thailand that your pored over in the Lonely Planet guide book is how you formed your opinions on how the Thai society is structured. I could also speculate on your political bias and anti-Thaksin knee jerk stance by assuming that you are a Democrat, who isn't allowed to vote anyway. Those would be just as ridiculous assumptions as the ones that you made, or would they?

Let's agree to disagree. Time will tell anyway, and the topic of this thread was to call attention to a double standard, how the people seem to be resenting it, and how it has destabilised Thailand in a very obvious way. I think we have seen abundant evidence of this resentment around us. If you think that alll this is because of Thaksin, and that now Abhisit is here all will be resolved, then that's your opinion. You have a right to think what you think but a majority of Thai people did not agree with you on various recent elections.

This thread has gone on so long now that I doubt anyone is reading it anymore. I have had a pleasant discussion with most of the posters here, and I will see you all elsewhere in the forum.

Edited April 21, 2009 by dbrenn

[Heng]

Agreed, but it is the government's responsibility to facilitate, rather than thwart, the progress of its citizens. As stated previously, I am in no way saying that people should sit back and wait for the state to make them successful. What I am saying is that the state should work on the behalf of the majority of the population, not a select few.

That's good that we agree in part, but as for reliance on the state at any significant level beyond basic anything, I think it's better to depend on one's own abilities rather than hoping/expecting that a very unprecise dinosaur will be able to do it for you.

That does sound rather defeatist, that we should never question the system and never blame it for hampering individual progress, or the progress of the nation as a whole. While what you say is true in the case of people who are lazy and are looking to blame the system because they refuse to blame themselves. I think that those people are in a small minority. There are a great many others in Thailand who are poor, and who are very obviously exploited by a system of patronage, and who are trapped by a system that works against them by depriving them of an education, healthcare, and other basic assistance in helping themselves break free from the poverty trap. For you to say that all these people have to do is work their way out of the situation, ignores the fact that it is impossible in many cases for them to do so.

It's defeatist to suggest that one can't survive and prosper in any particular system (and perhaps even worse IMO to suggest it's impossible), when it is merely another environmental factor.

You are very fortunate to be in a position not to have to follow politics. For some less fortunate people, a democratic political system is the only way that they can participate in modelling the future of the country that they live in.

Fortune favors the brave (and frugal, and those who invest wisely). I always suggest to my own employees who show some promise of being anything more than line workers for the next 40 years to focus less on politics and more on 'modelling' their own futures themselves. That alcohol is going to cost you even more later... that motorcycle purchase is more ego than investment... you can't really afford to use a mobile phone as opposed to that pay phone in front of our office with what I'm paying you, etc.

I disagree. There are a lot of very bright people in Thailand, who are prevented from succeeding by governments that couldn't care less about their plight. There are three factors to individual development - the potential of the individual, the will of the individual, and the support that individual receives from those above him or her.

You only acknowledge the first two factors, and it is this mindset that has hald Thailand back for far too long now. I am happy to see that Thais are no longer blaming Karma for their stunted progress - they are hoding their masters to account.

Those above him and her should be their own immediate elders and siblings, not complete strangers with their own families and family interests. It's silly to hope that they will have your best interests in mind when they don't even know you, much less care a single bit about you. The government simply isn't equipped, nor can it ever hope to be as proactive or reactive as the family unit to be everyone's guardian.

[triplegee]

This is the best take on the Reds perspective that I have seen IMHO...

Resentment of Reds and the Challenge of Reconciliation

It's all a good read but I found this piece interesting...

The allegedly overarching roles of the Constitution Court and the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Political Office Holders have exacerbated the perception that there is indeed a double standard applied to Thaksin-linked and non-Thaksin-linked politicians. There has been no prosecution of a single public office holder of the Democrat party in the last four years. That applies to both the Constitutional Court, the politicians' court, as well as cases under the purview of the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC).

[thaihome]

...I could retort to yours at a similarly valid level by declaring that your only source of information is the propaganda that you read in the Bangkok Post and the Nation, and that the brief history of Thailand that your pored over in the Lonely Planet guide book is how you formed your opinions on how the Thai society is structured. I could also speculate on your political bias and anti-Thaksin knee jerk stance by assuming that you are a Democrat, who isn't allowed to vote anyway. Those would be just as ridiculous assumptions as the ones that you made, or would they?

...

I think my post show a knowledge of Thailand’s political and socioeconomic structure far beyond what the Lonely Planet says. You have pontificated all over this thread with your “insights” into the Thai political situation, but when I called you on it, and pointed out the reality of the situation, you have not refuted a single thing I have said, and now have chosen to withdraw from the thread under the guise that no one would be interested.

You have continued to make snide remarks about me and what I could possibly be doing in Thailand. I suggest you go back and read some of my 2k+ post and then you can come back and apologize.

TH

[bf2002]

The Yellows close down Thailand's international airport, causing mayhem and damage on an unprecedented scale to Thailand's tourist industry and reputation. None are arrested and charged, let alone convicted.

Stop shouting this crap. PAD leaders have been charged and you would know that unless you don't bother reading the newspaper.

But have those that one would "suspect" of inciting the PAD? Isn't this "suspicion" the whole manufactured premise against Thaksin now "endangering" the country?

Face it, those PAD charged leaders are going away...just like the ones against the TRT, the post-TRT party, and Thaksin....TiT. No, nobody's balls get broken except the foreigners!

[clausewitz]

Full story:

Resentment of reds and the challenge of reconciliation

By: ML Nattakorn Devakula Published: 21/04/2009 at 12:00 AM It is often difficult to comprehend or even sympathise with what looks on the surface to be nothing more than barbaric acts of terrorism. Nonetheless, for a sustainable national reconciliation process to get under way, now is a critical time to understand - especially for those wearing yellow - why the reds acted the way they did.

Demands remain unfulfilled: A supporter cries as UDD leaders announce the end of the protest at Government House on April 14.

Story continues here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...-reconciliation

Edited to comply with bangkok Post's policy on linking news articles - mario2008

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Credit where credit is due, that article is excellent. Thanks for posting.

Edited April 22, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

This is also very interesting, a VERY up-close report of the recent protests and crackdown:

http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/20...the-red-shirts/

[dominique355]

In a normal government, various legitimate processes can take place that can shift the balance of power, such as byelections, alliances, internal voting an so on, which can of course lead to the replacement of the PM and other representatives, and change policy. This is not what happened in Thailand - far from it. The point that I was making in my original post, the one that you are ignoring in your response, is that most, if not all, Thai politicians are blatantly corrupt, but only one side gets prosecuted for it in a deliberate move to change the government, and the prosecutions abrupty stop when that change was completed to the satisfaction of the PAD minority.

The military coup, disbanding the TRT, then expelling fom office one after the other PM who was affiliated with the TRT via mob rule or judicial pretext, left those remaining in parliament no choice other than to join whatever was left, and so Abhisit was installed as the largest remnant who was acceptable to the PAD and others in the old guard establishment.

Without all this interference, the government that the people had originally elected would most likely still be in power today.

Aren't you ignoring that while it is true that nothing was done to stop the Yellow Shirts to occupy the airports, this was the decision of Thaksin's puppet and brother in Law, not of Abhisit.

And aren't you forgetting that Samak and Somchai were kicked out of office, not be politicians, but by the Court. They were caught doing illegal things, such as vote buying in Somchai's case.

And aren't you forgetting that the prosecution of the Yellow Shirts (as well as of the Red Shirts for that matter) is in the hands of the Police, district attorney and courts, not the government anymore. I would certainly agree that the Thai Police is as corrupt as it goes, (combined with total incompetence), but again, that's not the "politicians". Unless of course, you define "politicians" to include the Police and the Courts.

So far we have not heard of any corruption of Abhisit, whereas when you look up "corruption" or "cronyism" in the dictionary Thaksin's face pops up right next to the list of members of TRT or PPP or whatever their name is right now.

I would venture to say that right now we have the least corrupt government since ... since ... well since Thaksin entered the picture.

Would you prefer his family to run the country?

[dominique355]

Watch this, Thaksin as seen by his fellow countrymen:

[Orac]

In a normal government, various legitimate processes can take place that can shift the balance of power, such as byelections, alliances, internal voting an so on, which can of course lead to the replacement of the PM and other representatives, and change policy. This is not what happened in Thailand - far from it. The point that I was making in my original post, the one that you are ignoring in your response, is that most, if not all, Thai politicians are blatantly corrupt, but only one side gets prosecuted for it in a deliberate move to change the government, and the prosecutions abrupty stop when that change was completed to the satisfaction of the PAD minority.

The military coup, disbanding the TRT, then expelling fom office one after the other PM who was affiliated with the TRT via mob rule or judicial pretext, left those remaining in parliament no choice other than to join whatever was left, and so Abhisit was installed as the largest remnant who was acceptable to the PAD and others in the old guard establishment.

Without all this interference, the government that the people had originally elected would most likely still be in power today.

Aren't you ignoring that while it is true that nothing was done to stop the Yellow Shirts to occupy the airports, this was the decision of Thaksin's puppet and brother in Law, not of Abhisit.

And aren't you forgetting that Samak and Somchai were kicked out of office, not be politicians, but by the Court. They were caught doing illegal things, such as vote buying in Somchai's case.

And aren't you forgetting that the prosecution of the Yellow Shirts (as well as of the Red Shirts for that matter) is in the hands of the Police, district attorney and courts, not the government anymore. I would certainly agree that the Thai Police is as corrupt as it goes, (combined with total incompetence), but again, that's not the "politicians". Unless of course, you define "politicians" to include the Police and the Courts.

So far we have not heard of any corruption of Abhisit, whereas when you look up "corruption" or "cronyism" in the dictionary Thaksin's face pops up right next to the list of members of TRT or PPP or whatever their name is right now.

I would venture to say that right now we have the least corrupt government since ... since ... well since Thaksin entered the picture.

Would you prefer his family to run the country?

You are correct here in saying that it is not the 'politicians' here that are now responsible for dealing with the corruption and cronyism of the past but herein lies the problem as unless these 'non-politicans' deal with past issues evenhandedly there will be repercusions against the current government as, if they do not intervene in some way or set clear guidelines will be seen as puppets. Any goverment should lead and not be seen to be led and Abhisit needs to make it clear that he is in command.

Another point I would like to make regarding double standards, and I know I am sailing close to the wind on this one but hope the mods let it stand, is that Thaksin is been accused (rightly in my opinion) of trying to overthrow the goverment and, in the past, one of the main reasons for the yellow protests was to stop the previous goverment from making changes to laws that would exonerate MPs from previous misdeeds, however, all this happenned a few months after the military DID overthrown the government and rewrite the constitution to give themselves more control and exonerate themselves from legal action. Since it has been made clear from both sides that the monarchy was not consulted on this beforehand surely there is a huge double standard going on here which is virtually being ignored.

[gonzobrains]

Both sides have their elite, but the current side on top has the better elite. The other side is just a tricked out Isaan tour bus: neon colors, disco ball, and packed with fuglies.

That's a non-biased opinion by the way. I don't support either side.

Using your argument, it is just as easy to say that the other side 'just tricked' factions of the army, the judiciary, the bureacrats, the Bangkokians and southerners. So what are you saying? The fact is, the current side is a minority. The majority vote, even though it comprises the Isan tour bus working class social group that you clearly do not identify with, has been ignored. By what measure do you call the current lot a 'better elite', when we know that they are just the same bunch of crooks, many of whom served in Thaksin's equally corrupt party?

If Thailand wants to run a political system of minority rule, where democratically elected governments are kicked out of office on a pretext, why does it call itself a democracy? By any standard, it isn't one. The PAD seems to have set the scene for mob rule politics and double standards, which are no longer accepted by even the most uneducated peasant. The upshot is a divided nation, with the rural majority bitterly resenting the fact that their democratic voice was ignored, and a descending cycle of violence.

That "tricked out isaan bus" comment could be taken as funny or insulting, depending on who you are.

I think some of the things they do in Isaan are a bit strange, but I try to equate it to what the poor do back inmy country. I am actually quite impressed at how they manage to get so many things accomplished with so little. They can improvise just about anything necessary. I've never see people create so many uses for used tires, old CD/DVDs, rubber bands, and other assorted junk.

If you are a snob, you can look down at these oppressed people and make fun of the few opportunities they have to enjoy life and have fun (neon colored tour buses). Given their same background and budget, how would you do better?

But what if someone looked down at you and made fun of what you do? I could just as easily make fun of all the Bangkok superstars and all the cheesy things they do on television.

These people have been oppressed for a long time. If I recall correctly, the Central Thai government banned Isaan-language writing sometime during the late 50s. Is this true?

Jeff

[gonzobrains]

It's all very simple. The yellow shirts are the rich and elite and cannot live with the poorer majority determining the path of the government and country. What they (Yellow shits) have quickly realized is that with a democratically elected government, they lose control of their money through taxation. The poor, with the majority, could introduce and vote into law taxes on the rich to be distributed to the poor through welfare, health care and social security schemes.

This IS what it is all about.

As repugnant as Thaksin might be (for trying to avoid taxes on his communications company sale), he was unlawfully and unconstitutionally removed from office and he really is the only true democratically elected PM of this country. The fact that the judicial system and current government officials continue to ignore this basic concept makes them all corrupt and unfit for public office. They ignore the basic foundations of the rule of law.

Why aren't the Yellow shirt leaders also being rounded up under an arrest warrant?

Regards

Honestly now. Why is trying to minimize your tax liability "repugnant"? Especially if the tax money is being collected by your foes! Just because these guy outranks your paltry salary hundred-fold doesn't make him a bad guy for what you probably try to do (albeit on a much smaller scale) yourself.

Is it not clear to you why the yellow shirts aren't being "rounded up"? Because they have the money and the guns!

[gonzobrains]

Vote buying is fine as long as it's heavily dressed up as marketing. This "cash" approach the locals use is so distasteful.

Distasteful? Haha. Surely you jest.

The "cash" approach, as you call it, IS marketing. This marketing style is distasteful to you because in your world marketing is so much more modernized to the point that you aren't even aware you're being brainwashed.

Stop comparing apples to oranges.

[mitrapaap]

Can we give this political ping pong a rest? It's getting plain boring , we've heard all the arguements for and against both sides ad nauseum so until there is something new to add it would be nice to discuss other aspects of life in Thailand. I am led to believe there are some.

Agreed! When I saw the title double standards I thought it was about something else than red/yellow. I just went up country and faced a very ugly double standard. I wanted to go to a water fall. Entrance fee for Thais 40 Baht, Foreigners 200 Baht. I showed them my tax card saying that I wanted the Thai price as I pay tax in Thailand. Usually that works. End of last year I was in a place in Rayong and they told me I should always take the tax card with me becuase it is accepted nationwide. On this small trip to Khon Kaen it did not work at both two places where there was an entrance fee to pay.

Has anybody similar experiences? I'm really pissed off by their notorious eagerty of overcharging farangs. Because that is what it is. If There is a car arriving with 5 people and one of them is Chinese, Malaysian, Philippino or something out of the region, they won't be able to identify him as a foreigner. So it's really not a thing of being foreigner, but just being farang. I don't see why I should pay 5 times the price. My salary is not 5 times the one of a rich Thai. And in national parks it is not the farang who throws away plastic bottles and other garbage.

I have made U-turn in the two places. The officials there of course don't care. They prefer not to get a single Baht rather than to get the Thai price for 2 persons.