More Rallies 'as Soon As Decree Ends'

[LawnGnome]

Andrew Drummond wrote a letter to the Nation regarding this issue a while ago. I found the quote similar to what he used:

One cannot ply with pints of beer, Thank God, the English cricketeer,

But seeing what the fool will do, Undrunk, there's no occasion to.

You cannot hope to bribe or twist, (thank God) the British journalist.

But seeing what the man will do Unbribed, there's no occasion to.

>>>

I think it's a rather apt description of foreign media coverage of any particular local issue, not just Thailand.

Andrew Drummond? Get real!! Doesn't he specialise in Pattaya ladyboy stories?

But Crispin is a serious analyst and a class act and his piece in the Asia Times is very interesting.The background is that he did, to be fair like many, completely underestimate the red strength and organisation.He doesn't incidentally express or even imply a view one way or another on whether the UDD organiser wrote the Economist editorial.

One would have to explain how every other international media outlet takes broadly the same line.

But Plus and Hammered are both right - foreign media coverage is broadbush and simplistic.There is much to Crispin's view that what we are seeing is really a struggle between elites, rather than between democracy and elites.To quote Michael Connors who Hammered just mentioned:

"The famous Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci has the best response: "A given socio-historical moment is never homogeneous; on the contrary, it is rich in contradictions." The "democratic versus authoritarian" narrative that has captured international attention is as misconceived as it is overbearingly homogenous."

The current crisis is certainly rich in contradictions.

On of the first things that I agree with you on Jayboy. Excellent post!

[plachon]

I have to admit I never believed that Thaksin had manipulated the Economist, but now maybe the most respected foreign locally based journalist on Thai politcal affairs says this, it is nolonger possible to deny.

Crispins whole piece is an eye opener and quite damning of the overseas media. Mind you in ther last few days they seem to have started calling the Thaksin meme or peaceful pro-democracy ... and all the stories of loads of dead disappeared. Worrying thing is it seemslike one segemnt of the reds wanted 1992 judging by the way they were prepared and distributed the stories even before the event.

The media manipulation by the other side is rightly condemned too.

Jakrapob started out as a propogandist and meme creator for Thaksin way back. Difficult to spin threatening to burn down a poor working class neghborhood in Bangkok into anything positive though.

And Jakrapob played Jonathan Head like a violin. Did you ever once see Head at street level talking to ordinary Thais? Where did he get the completely biased views he did, which completely misled millions of people around the world as to what was happening in Thailand during the last couple of years? Certainly wasn't from consorting with ordinary people across the political spectrum. Amazing what a warped view you get from your condo balcony above an elite racetrack, eh? BBC do seem to have taken Head off the case now, as a new face seems to be covering the news from Thailand (who actually dares to venture down to street level), and not before time.

I wonder if Jakrapob used the good old David Byrne (EU bird flu csar who declared that Thailand was free of the disease a day before it was admitted that bird flu was rampant and killing people) technique of painting a rosy picture (from inside a massage parlour?) of propaganda to the unwitting. Head has got serious egg on his face now for getting his story so wrong for so long. It was embarassing for quite a while having to reinterpret Head stories to friends and colleagues who saw Thaksin as the victim over the past year or so. I think their Head-brainwashing is now coming out in the Redwash of the past week.

[webfact]

And Jakrapob played Jonathan Head like a violin. Did you ever once see Head at street level talking to ordinary Thais? Where did he get the completely biased views he did, which completely misled millions of people around the world as to what was happening in Thailand during the last couple of years? Certainly wasn't from consorting with ordinary people across the political spectrum. Amazing what a warped view you get from your condo balcony above an elite racetrack, eh? BBC do seem to have taken Head off the case now, as a new face seems to be covering the news from Thailand (who actually dares to venture down to street level), and not before time.

I wonder if Jakrapob used the good old David Byrne (EU bird flu csar who declared that Thailand was free of the disease a day before it was admitted that bird flu was rampant and killing people) technique of painting a rosy picture (from inside a massage parlour?) of propaganda to the unwitting. Head has got serious egg on his face now for getting his story so wrong for so long. It was embarassing for quite a while having to reinterpret Head stories to friends and colleagues who saw Thaksin as the victim over the past year or so. I think their Head-brainwashing is now coming out in the Redwash of the past week.

Yes! I trust Jonathan D'Head never left his balcony for the past 7 days. Give me a call if you ever see him doing a report directly from the "scene"

[Scott]

So we may end up like the South--bother under some sort of decree for an extended period of time.

[LawnGnome]

So we may end up like the South--bother under some sort of decree for an extended period of time.

If that is what it takes to keep the red shirted idiiot and Thaksin from killing any more innocents, so be it.

[hammered]

It is interesting that the BBC had Alistair(?) somebody doing the red riot reporting on the ground while Head occasionally made some comment nowhere near events. Wonder if Head is on a down or they are shiftinghim up. Head is obviously one that used Jakrapobs statements as fact. He is also obvioulsy fits the group the group Crispin/Connors is having a go at. The world media suddenly seems to be a little more critical of the Thaksin meme empire and when Jakrpob sent the "all local media is BS" SMS to international reporters just before he skippedaway I wonder if he was thinking about how the Thai and International Media all semed tobe on the same wavelength of out of control red riots and a country needing to bring chaos under order and nobody believing the red reports of mega death.

Interesting to watch meme creaotrsand then watch them fall as they grow overconfident. In propoganda it is always a good idea to keep refreshing the team By relying for too long on Jakrapob Thaksin built in his own propoganda defeat thorugh overconfidence and accepting advicethat he could spin win ever bigger events which of course was to forget the cardinal rule of never let the neutrals actually see what you are doing. Now anything he or his supporters say will be suspect.

[hammered]

So we may end up like the South--bother under some sort of decree for an extended period of time.

If that is what it takes to keep the red shirted idiiot and Thaksin from killing any more innocents, so be it.

You wouldnt know anything was different where I live. Weird. Songkhran was pretty much the same. People are pretty unhappy with the reds though and I am talking about working class here. I also noticed a nice new yellow sticker on every Taxi that brought people to Chonburi. Wonder if it is a new necessity after the taxi station guys are pretty much linked to the violence.

[plachon]

So we may end up like the South--bother under some sort of decree for an extended period of time.

If that is what it takes to keep the red shirted idiiot and Thaksin from killing any more innocents, so be it.

I think that should be in the plural..............my wife (who is from Isaan) calls them "khwai". I used to disagree with her and defend their blindness and loyalty to their master as just temporary inability to see the light, but since the Red rebellion and insurrection on the streets where many seemed willing to kill and die for Mr T, I've somewhat swung round to her way of thinking. Mind you, it would be unusual for a buffalo to want to kill or die for anyone, so I'm still not totally convinced, although the willingness by which they can be led by their nose to do their master's ploughing and dirty work in return for a pittance of food and Leo beer, would seem to indicate a certain bovine quality to the Red drones.

[rixalex]

It was embarassing for quite a while having to reinterpret Head stories to friends and colleagues who saw Thaksin as the victim over the past year or so. I think their Head-brainwashing is now coming out in the Redwash of the past week.

Yes! I trust Jonathan D'Head never left his balcony for the past 7 days. Give me a call if you ever see him doing a report directly from the "scene"

I would love to know how Mr Head would respond to these comments.

I'd also love to know exactly how it is that the BBC have continued for so many years to allow such one-sided journalism. Surely someone inside the BBC was informed enough to know that viewers around the world were being painted a distorted picture? Why was nothing done to give some balance?

[Thaising]

It was embarassing for quite a while having to reinterpret Head stories to friends and colleagues who saw Thaksin as the victim over the past year or so. I think their Head-brainwashing is now coming out in the Redwash of the past week.

Yes! I trust Jonathan D'Head never left his balcony for the past 7 days. Give me a call if you ever see him doing a report directly from the "scene"

I would love to know how Mr Head would respond to these comments.

I'd also love to know exactly how it is that the BBC have continued for so many years to allow such one-sided journalism. Surely someone inside the BBC was informed enough to know that viewers around the world were being painted a distorted picture? Why was nothing done to give some balance?

Some news agency and reporter might received some financial gained just to write unbiased stories for the opposing party to score political points, whereas journalism are just political tools for those that is willing to splash with money.

Truth journalism versus Toxin public relation machinery to confuse the world’s audiences that have less knowledge’s about Thai political scene.

Edited April 18, 2009 by Thaising

[jayboy]

It is interesting that the BBC had Alistair(?) somebody doing the red riot reporting on the ground while Head occasionally made some comment nowhere near events. Wonder if Head is on a down or they are shiftinghim up. Head is obviously one that used Jakrapobs statements as fact. He is also obvioulsy fits the group the group Crispin/Connors is having a go at. The world media suddenly seems to be a little more critical of the Thaksin meme empire and when Jakrpob sent the "all local media is BS" SMS to international reporters just before he skippedaway I wonder if he was thinking about how the Thai and International Media all semed tobe on the same wavelength of out of control red riots and a country needing to bring chaos under order and nobody believing the red reports of mega death.

Interesting to watch meme creaotrsand then watch them fall as they grow overconfident. In propoganda it is always a good idea to keep refreshing the team By relying for too long on Jakrapob Thaksin built in his own propoganda defeat thorugh overconfidence and accepting advicethat he could spin win ever bigger events which of course was to forget the cardinal rule of never let the neutrals actually see what you are doing. Now anything he or his supporters say will be suspect.

Alistair Leithead is the name, formerly with the BBC in Afghanistan for several years.He did an interesting face to face interview with Abhisit a couple of days ago, contradicting Crispin who stated he was holed away in a secret location and only doing interviews by telephone.

Jonathan Head's reporting from Bangkok has been magnificent, and the abuse he has received on this forum is frankly contemptible.He has shown considerable courage in the face of trumped up lese majeste charges.I doubt whether many of the anonymous foreigners on this forum has the slightest idea how Jonathan obtains his background or mixes with the ease Jonathan does in political circles.Your comment on the Head/Jakrapop relationship is just your personal hypothesis, and I suggest to you it is untrue.If you have any facts to support them let's see them.There is no Crispin/Connors school of opinion.If you bothered to read them properly you would see they have completely different perspectives.

Edited April 18, 2009 by jayboy

[plachon]

It is interesting that the BBC had Alistair(?) somebody doing the red riot reporting on the ground while Head occasionally made some comment nowhere near events. Wonder if Head is on a down or they are shiftinghim up. Head is obviously one that used Jakrapobs statements as fact. He is also obvioulsy fits the group the group Crispin/Connors is having a go at. The world media suddenly seems to be a little more critical of the Thaksin meme empire and when Jakrpob sent the "all local media is BS" SMS to international reporters just before he skippedaway I wonder if he was thinking about how the Thai and International Media all semed tobe on the same wavelength of out of control red riots and a country needing to bring chaos under order and nobody believing the red reports of mega death.

Interesting to watch meme creaotrsand then watch them fall as they grow overconfident. In propoganda it is always a good idea to keep refreshing the team By relying for too long on Jakrapob Thaksin built in his own propoganda defeat thorugh overconfidence and accepting advicethat he could spin win ever bigger events which of course was to forget the cardinal rule of never let the neutrals actually see what you are doing. Now anything he or his supporters say will be suspect.

Alistair Leithead is the name, formerly with the BBC in Afghanistan for several years.He did an interesting face to face interview with Abhisit a couple of days ago, contradicting Crispin who stated he was holed away in a secret location and only doing interviews by telephone.

Jonathan Head's reporting from Bangkok has been magnificent, and the abuse he has received on this forum is frankly contemptible.He has shown considerable courage in the face of trumped up lese majeste charges.I doubt whether many of the anonymous foreigners on this forum has the slightest idea how Jonathan obtains his background or mixes with the ease Jonathan does in political circles.Your comment on the Head/Jakrapop relationship is just your personal hypothesis, and I suggest to you it is untrue.If you have any facts to support them let's see them.There is no Crispin/Connors school of opinion.If you bothered to read them properly you would see they have completely different perspectives.

Seems like you (and possibly the banned Younghusband) are the only ones who might call Head's reporting "magnificent". The general consensus on this and other forums is that it is atrociously biased and lacks breadth & depth in his analysis. Alastair Leithead, by comparison, was at least able to get down to street level and wander into the battlezone for material, something Head seems incapable of doing. The way that Head introduced Jak at that infamous FCCT interview he gave, suggests to me that they were intimate buddies.

Head's even got quite a fanclub in the Postbox of BP today it seems, which is quite an achievement for someone who's been in Thailand for as long as that.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...-the-truth-lies

[jayboy]

It is interesting that the BBC had Alistair(?) somebody doing the red riot reporting on the ground while Head occasionally made some comment nowhere near events. Wonder if Head is on a down or they are shiftinghim up. Head is obviously one that used Jakrapobs statements as fact. He is also obvioulsy fits the group the group Crispin/Connors is having a go at. The world media suddenly seems to be a little more critical of the Thaksin meme empire and when Jakrpob sent the "all local media is BS" SMS to international reporters just before he skippedaway I wonder if he was thinking about how the Thai and International Media all semed tobe on the same wavelength of out of control red riots and a country needing to bring chaos under order and nobody believing the red reports of mega death.

Interesting to watch meme creaotrsand then watch them fall as they grow overconfident. In propoganda it is always a good idea to keep refreshing the team By relying for too long on Jakrapob Thaksin built in his own propoganda defeat thorugh overconfidence and accepting advicethat he could spin win ever bigger events which of course was to forget the cardinal rule of never let the neutrals actually see what you are doing. Now anything he or his supporters say will be suspect.

Alistair Leithead is the name, formerly with the BBC in Afghanistan for several years.He did an interesting face to face interview with Abhisit a couple of days ago, contradicting Crispin who stated he was holed away in a secret location and only doing interviews by telephone.

Jonathan Head's reporting from Bangkok has been magnificent, and the abuse he has received on this forum is frankly contemptible.He has shown considerable courage in the face of trumped up lese majeste charges.I doubt whether many of the anonymous foreigners on this forum has the slightest idea how Jonathan obtains his background or mixes with the ease Jonathan does in political circles.Your comment on the Head/Jakrapop relationship is just your personal hypothesis, and I suggest to you it is untrue.If you have any facts to support them let's see them.There is no Crispin/Connors school of opinion.If you bothered to read them properly you would see they have completely different perspectives.

Seems like you (and possibly the banned Younghusband) are the only ones who might call Head's reporting "magnificent". The general consensus on this and other forums is that it is atrociously biased and lacks breadth & depth in his analysis. Alastair Leithead, by comparison, was at least able to get down to street level and wander into the battlezone for material, something Head seems incapable of doing. The way that Head introduced Jak at that infamous FCCT interview he gave, suggests to me that they were intimate buddies.

Head's even got quite a fanclub in the Postbox of BP today it seems, which is quite an achievement for someone who's been in Thailand for as long as that.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...-the-truth-lies

Plachon

Thanks for the BP reference, and I agree that Somluck there makes a fair point.Overall I do agree JH has a mixed reputation among expats though not so much among Thais.I jumped to his defence because I think the criticsm he's pro-Thaksin is misfounded.It's true that he's highlighted divisions in Thai society, and personally I think he's right to do so.I think he's reported with intelligence but perhaps he was asking for trouble by taking a "view".Your point on Alistair Leithead is a good one, ie getting into the thick of things.JH is more analytical tyoe of correspondent.

[LawnGnome]

The more I see the complete disappearance of the red shirts in so short a time, the more I am convinced of the dramatic and huge swing in the "undecided" public opinion regarding their "mission". They really and truly destroyed their own cause with their own actions. Thaksin and the red shirts were their own worst enemy. Are they finished? No, probably not, but I think they have suffered a critical blow, and I, personally, doubt they will be much of a factor in the weeks and months to come. If Abhisit seizes the oppotunity to go on the PR offensive, and to further establish himself as a legitimate leader in the eyes of the Thai people, the stench of Thaksin will ever more rapidly fade away.

[webfact]

Poll backs government response to riot

By THE NATION ON SUNDAY

Published on April 19, 2009

Three in four people across the country approve of the government crackdown on red-shirt protesters, a survey has found.

Almost three-quarters of the respondents said they believed the crackdown was accountable, and 73 per cent believed clashes between civilians, not soldiers, had caused the protester's death.

The survey was conducted by Abac Poll Research Centre, covering 1,439 households in 17 provinces in all regions.

Sixty-five per cent also believed that most protesters had attended the rally out of conviction and really been fighting for democracy, while only 35 per cent doubted this.

Almost 80 per cent had hope of national reconciliation, the rest none.

The Abac Poll Research Centre conducted the survey shortly after the controversial crackdown on red-shirt protesters, which was seriously criticised by most red shirts, who accused the government of covering up more deaths in the crackdown.

Abac Poll Research Centre director Noppadon Kannika yesterday said that in view of the serious national rift the government should look to moral issues as well as economic ones.

"The surge of feeling [against the government] is great enough to be a threat to national security," he said.

- THE NATION -

-

[LawnGnome]

Poll backs government response to riot

By THE NATION ON SUNDAY

Published on April 19, 2009

Three in four people across the country approve of the government crackdown on red-shirt protesters, a survey has found.

Almost three-quarters of the respondents said they believed the crackdown was accountable, and 73 per cent believed clashes between civilians, not soldiers, had caused the protester's death.

The survey was conducted by Abac Poll Research Centre, covering 1,439 households in 17 provinces in all regions.

Sixty-five per cent also believed that most protesters had attended the rally out of conviction and really been fighting for democracy, while only 35 per cent doubted this.

Almost 80 per cent had hope of national reconciliation, the rest none.

The Abac Poll Research Centre conducted the survey shortly after the controversial crackdown on red-shirt protesters, which was seriously criticised by most red shirts, who accused the government of covering up more deaths in the crackdown.

Abac Poll Research Centre director Noppadon Kannika yesterday said that in view of the serious national rift the government should look to moral issues as well as economic ones.

"The surge of feeling [against the government] is great enough to be a threat to national security," he said.

- THE NATION -

-

The people who tried to burn the house down, are now surprised that people didn't like that much? Idiots?

[Dap]

It doesn't take much effort for those in the shadows behind the red shirts to create images of men in uniform throwing bodies into trucks. In fact I'm rather surprised such images haven't been fed to the likes of Al Jazeera. Maybe they have but the media org's saw through them a little too easily. Even if they did make the bodies disappear, supposing they could in the middle of all that mayhem, there'd still be the walking wounded to tell their tales. Of course they've still ot time to produce "widows" who waved their husbands goodbye last Friday never to see them again.

So what exactly is wrong with Al Jazeera? They've got some of the best and most balanced international news out there. My wife and I were very happy with the quality of their reporting on the situation in Thailand.

Thats the rub. They are balanced.... Its the lot in power that are out of kilter.

It looks like a coup, kick out three pms who beat abhisit change constitution

It smells like a coup, Army on streets, calling shots. (look who is behind the hysteria that provoked this thread.

Army budget doubled this year, they start two battles with Cambodian troups which gov is unaware of.

Its just possible therefore that it is a coup and some of you havn't woken up and smelled it yet... you will, you will!

Trust Aj Jazeera on this one, they have more reporting depth than any of the Thai lot. Note ASTV is still pumping out its bilge day and night and the PAD are partying in Phuket this weekend.

Fair and balanced? Not thai powers of the moment.

... and certainly not of the past either

[plachon]

It is interesting that the BBC had Alistair(?) somebody doing the red riot reporting on the ground while Head occasionally made some comment nowhere near events. Wonder if Head is on a down or they are shiftinghim up. Head is obviously one that used Jakrapobs statements as fact. He is also obvioulsy fits the group the group Crispin/Connors is having a go at. The world media suddenly seems to be a little more critical of the Thaksin meme empire and when Jakrpob sent the "all local media is BS" SMS to international reporters just before he skippedaway I wonder if he was thinking about how the Thai and International Media all semed tobe on the same wavelength of out of control red riots and a country needing to bring chaos under order and nobody believing the red reports of mega death.

Interesting to watch meme creaotrsand then watch them fall as they grow overconfident. In propoganda it is always a good idea to keep refreshing the team By relying for too long on Jakrapob Thaksin built in his own propoganda defeat thorugh overconfidence and accepting advicethat he could spin win ever bigger events which of course was to forget the cardinal rule of never let the neutrals actually see what you are doing. Now anything he or his supporters say will be suspect.

Alistair Leithead is the name, formerly with the BBC in Afghanistan for several years.He did an interesting face to face interview with Abhisit a couple of days ago, contradicting Crispin who stated he was holed away in a secret location and only doing interviews by telephone.

Jonathan Head's reporting from Bangkok has been magnificent, and the abuse he has received on this forum is frankly contemptible.He has shown considerable courage in the face of trumped up lese majeste charges.I doubt whether many of the anonymous foreigners on this forum has the slightest idea how Jonathan obtains his background or mixes with the ease Jonathan does in political circles.Your comment on the Head/Jakrapop relationship is just your personal hypothesis, and I suggest to you it is untrue.If you have any facts to support them let's see them.There is no Crispin/Connors school of opinion.If you bothered to read them properly you would see they have completely different perspectives.

Seems like you (and possibly the banned Younghusband) are the only ones who might call Head's reporting "magnificent". The general consensus on this and other forums is that it is atrociously biased and lacks breadth & depth in his analysis. Alastair Leithead, by comparison, was at least able to get down to street level and wander into the battlezone for material, something Head seems incapable of doing. The way that Head introduced Jak at that infamous FCCT interview he gave, suggests to me that they were intimate buddies.

Head's even got quite a fanclub in the Postbox of BP today it seems, which is quite an achievement for someone who's been in Thailand for as long as that.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...-the-truth-lies

Plachon

Thanks for the BP reference, and I agree that Somluck there makes a fair point.Overall I do agree JH has a mixed reputation among expats though not so much among Thais.I jumped to his defence because I think the criticsm he's pro-Thaksin is misfounded.It's true that he's highlighted divisions in Thai society, and personally I think he's right to do so.I think he's reported with intelligence but perhaps he was asking for trouble by taking a "view".Your point on Alistair Leithead is a good one, ie getting into the thick of things.JH is more analytical tyoe of correspondent.

While Head may not have been overtly pro-Thaksin, he seemed quite content to ignore his past excesses and reputation as a confounded liar, to paint a picture of negativity towards everything PAD were doing and striving for, with a strong sense of sympathy towards UDD and the Reds, giving the impression that his news sources were firmly within one camp only. I suspect Jak was one of his main feeds, along with other Red intelligentisia well-placed and canny enough to "virtually write" Economist articles. One just has to look over to New Mandala to find a ready source of Red sympathisers who detest anything Yellow and feverishly imagined the Red Revolution had arrived last week.

While JH maybe a "more analytical type of correspondent", given the events of the past week, if one was a senior editor in Shepherd's Bush or a politician in Whitehall, one would have to seriously question his analytical ability to sort out good from bad, green from grey, red from yellow and deceit from truth. I think it was time he was reassigned to an inactive post with Aunty Beeb, where his "analytical ability" can be retuned.

[BigSnake]

Maybe just maybe COMMON sense will play a roll this time around and the red shirts will do their best to keep things peaceful, let all this is case, the Tourist industry can't take to many more serious HITs like it has over the past six months or so, heaven forbid a closing of the Airport again.

[samgrowth]

Maybe just maybe COMMON sense will play a roll this time around and the red shirts will do their best to keep things peaceful, let all this is case, the Tourist industry can't take to many more serious HITs like it has over the past six months or so, heaven forbid a closing of the Airport again.

The red have learn now.

Better shut the airport than shutting the streets.

Now you know where the red will head to as a new protest ground.

"IT IS NOT A CRIME TO SHUT THE AIRPORTS DOWN".

[ballpoint]

Poll backs government response to riot

By THE NATION ON SUNDAY

Published on April 19, 2009

Three in four people across the country approve of the government crackdown on red-shirt protesters, a survey has found.

Almost three-quarters of the respondents said they believed the crackdown was accountable, and 73 per cent believed clashes between civilians, not soldiers, had caused the protester's death.

The survey was conducted by Abac Poll Research Centre, covering 1,439 households in 17 provinces in all regions.

Sixty-five per cent also believed that most protesters had attended the rally out of conviction and really been fighting for democracy, while only 35 per cent doubted this.

Almost 80 per cent had hope of national reconciliation, the rest none.

The Abac Poll Research Centre conducted the survey shortly after the controversial crackdown on red-shirt protesters, which was seriously criticised by most red shirts, who accused the government of covering up more deaths in the crackdown.

Abac Poll Research Centre director Noppadon Kannika yesterday said that in view of the serious national rift the government should look to moral issues as well as economic ones.

"The surge of feeling [against the government] is great enough to be a threat to national security," he said.

- THE NATION -

-

Did this guy even read the results of his own poll?

[hammered]

It is interesting that the BBC had Alistair(?) somebody doing the red riot reporting on the ground while Head occasionally made some comment nowhere near events. Wonder if Head is on a down or they are shiftinghim up. Head is obviously one that used Jakrapobs statements as fact. He is also obvioulsy fits the group the group Crispin/Connors is having a go at. The world media suddenly seems to be a little more critical of the Thaksin meme empire and when Jakrpob sent the "all local media is BS" SMS to international reporters just before he skippedaway I wonder if he was thinking about how the Thai and International Media all semed tobe on the same wavelength of out of control red riots and a country needing to bring chaos under order and nobody believing the red reports of mega death.

Interesting to watch meme creaotrsand then watch them fall as they grow overconfident. In propoganda it is always a good idea to keep refreshing the team By relying for too long on Jakrapob Thaksin built in his own propoganda defeat thorugh overconfidence and accepting advicethat he could spin win ever bigger events which of course was to forget the cardinal rule of never let the neutrals actually see what you are doing. Now anything he or his supporters say will be suspect.

Alistair Leithead is the name, formerly with the BBC in Afghanistan for several years.He did an interesting face to face interview with Abhisit a couple of days ago, contradicting Crispin who stated he was holed away in a secret location and only doing interviews by telephone.

Jonathan Head's reporting from Bangkok has been magnificent, and the abuse he has received on this forum is frankly contemptible.He has shown considerable courage in the face of trumped up lese majeste charges.I doubt whether many of the anonymous foreigners on this forum has the slightest idea how Jonathan obtains his background or mixes with the ease Jonathan does in political circles.Your comment on the Head/Jakrapop relationship is just your personal hypothesis, and I suggest to you it is untrue.If you have any facts to support them let's see them.There is no Crispin/Connors school of opinion.If you bothered to read them properly you would see they have completely different perspectives.

Both Crispin and Connors have now at different times been critical of the western media accepting rather uncritically the idea that Thaksin and reds are equated to democracy, whioch is what I reffered to when said having a go. Crispin did it from a perspective of a red propoganda machine and Connors did it from a perspective of a lazy media overlooking the obvious democratic failings of Thaksin. I agree it is not a school of thought and is different in detail. However, they have both had a go at western media.

[chrislarsson]

April 2009

After the Uprising

by Thitinan Pongsudhirak

Posted Apirl 19, 2008

BANGKOK – For a fortnight before Thailand’s rebellion was put down, the brutal axiom of Thai politics that the countryside elects governments but Bangkok gets to overthrow them was put to its litmus test. Tens of thousands of red-shirt protesters under the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) espousing upcountry messages and grievances against what they saw as systemic injustices and double standards had encircled Government House to demand the resignation of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and members of the King’s Privy Council who were deemed to have violated the constitution by masterminding the military coup in September 2006 and blatantly taking sides since.

But just as their opponents underestimated their pent-up rage and strength in numbers, the UDD leaders overestimated their ability to wage a spontaneous people’s revolt and bring down not just the Abhisit government but also the establishment that traditionally rests on the monarchy, military and bureaucracy, the holy trinity that has called the shots in Thailand for decades. After forcing the cancellation of the Asian summits, the red shirts ran amok on the Thai New Year on April 13th, rioting, blocking traffic, commandeering buses, and torching public facilities in Bangkok in an effort to provoke the government and the army into an overreaction that would mobilize more reds into the streets, reinforced by UDD columns in major provinces in the north and northeast regions

The consequent anarchy and mayhem doomed their months-long movement. Their moral high ground and the righteousness of their cause were quickly lost, replaced by public anger and backlash. As soldiers closed in on the desperate and cornered red shirts outside Government House, UDD leaders turned themselves into police custody on the following day. The physical toll included 123 injuries and two deaths, the latter involving local residents’ clash with protesters.

This recent drama and brinkmanship was not unprecedented in Thailand’s three-year crisis. A starkly opposed set of circumstances last year featured the pro-establishment yellow-shirt demonstrators under the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) who railed against two elected governments favored by the red shirts and aligned to Thaksin Shinawatra, a former premier turned fugitive now wanted by the Thai authorities. The army decidedly stayed on the sidelines while the PAD had its way with seizures of Government House and Bangkok’s international airport last December. The army chief publicly suggested that the pro-UDD prime minister at the time should resign in view of street protesters.

Ultimately, the Constitution Court dissolved the ruling party and left a vacuum for Mr. Abhisit to fill. To the reds, Mr. Abhisit’s coalition government may have constitutionally coalesced in parliament through the power brokerage of his Democrat Party’s backers in the army, judiciary and PAD, but its democratic credentials are tainted and incomplete. Thailand’s contested democracy in the eyes of the UDD and beyond means that Establishment prerogatives and preferences have carried the day for too long.

While the red shirts have lost the battle, it would be mistaken to write off their crusade against gross injustices in Thai society–between the haves and have-nots, between the traditional elite and the governed–as long as they remain unrecognized and unaddressed. Elite consensus held Thailand together in years past and enabled remarkable economic development, but it is coming loose at the seams. New social strata and the bottom rungs of society want a louder voice and a greater share of the pie, and are decreasingly willing to accept outcomes determined by traditional power brokers at the top.

Having overcome an ominous uprising, Mr. Abhisit and his backers still appear reluctant to respect and recognize the claims and grievances of the red shirts. The pro-establishment bias in Thai society runs deep. Most movers and shakers have an incentive to see the Abhisit government succeed and to see Thailand move forward in a direction consistent with establishment interests. They heard the reds’ noises but they discounted them on various grounds from gullibility and stupidity to financial opportunism. They resort to the comfort and convenience of seeing Mr. Thaksin as the sole force behind the reds. Now that Mr. Thaksin has been further disgraced and discredited during the red shirts’ downfall, they will be tempted to conclude that all’s normal, that the brief sound and fury seen in Thailand was just a passing nuisance.

But the reds represented more than Mr. Thaksin. Their quest for the will of the majority to shine in a genuine democracy was real and relentless. Their efforts came to naught this time, but the anti-establishment sentiments behind them are likely to simmer and fester until they find an outlet somewhere else sometime down the road. The undercurrents against establishment forces are deep and wide in Thailand. The lack of recognition and accommodation will make them pent-up and potent.

Thailand’s ongoing transformation should not lead it to replicate the experience of Nepal, as the institution of the monarchy is integral to Thai history and identity. Nor does it want to follow in the footsteps of the Philippines, whose periodic people’s power movements brought neither political stability nor economic vibrancy. And it should not turn the clock all the way back to end up in comparison to Burma’s military dictatorship. Indonesia’s democratic transition after decades of autocratic rule offers hope. Somewhere out there lies Thailand’s organic and optimal longer-term destination.

The onus for the way ahead now rests on Mr. Abhisit and his supporters. He should reach out to the reds rather than to mop up their remnants. What is needed next is the willingness of establishment forces to make self-enlightened reforms, adjustments and concessions in coming to terms with the grievances and expectations of the early 21st century to reconcile Thailand’s inheritance from the past and its future demands. Otherwise, popular movements for greater justice and a fairer shake may well reappear in other shapes, forms and colors.

Thitinan Pongsudhirak is associate professor and director of Chulalongkorn University’s Institute of Security and International Studies.

[Plus]

But the reds represented more than Mr. Thaksin. Their quest for the will of the majority to shine in a genuine democracy was real and relentless.

So when will they kick out Thaksin's relatives from commanding positions in their party?

And are we supposed to believe that Chalerm is a real shine in a genuine democracy?

They should clean up their house first, before trying to reform the rest of the country.

I'm sorry, but gullibility, stupidity, and financial opportunism describe reds far better, dear Thittinan.

[cmsally]

April 2009

After the Uprising

by Thitinan Pongsudhirak

Posted Apirl 19, 2008

BANGKOK – For a fortnight before Thailand’s rebellion was put down, the brutal axiom of Thai politics that the countryside elects governments but Bangkok gets to overthrow them was put to its litmus test. Tens of thousands of red-shirt protesters under the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) espousing upcountry messages and grievances against what they saw as systemic injustices and double standards had encircled Government House to demand the resignation of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and members of the King’s Privy Council who were deemed to have violated the constitution by masterminding the military coup in September 2006 and blatantly taking sides since.

But just as their opponents underestimated their pent-up rage and strength in numbers, the UDD leaders overestimated their ability to wage a spontaneous people’s revolt and bring down not just the Abhisit government but also the establishment that traditionally rests on the monarchy, military and bureaucracy, the holy trinity that has called the shots in Thailand for decades. After forcing the cancellation of the Asian summits, the red shirts ran amok on the Thai New Year on April 13th, rioting, blocking traffic, commandeering buses, and torching public facilities in Bangkok in an effort to provoke the government and the army into an overreaction that would mobilize more reds into the streets, reinforced by UDD columns in major provinces in the north and northeast regions

The consequent anarchy and mayhem doomed their months-long movement. Their moral high ground and the righteousness of their cause were quickly lost, replaced by public anger and backlash. As soldiers closed in on the desperate and cornered red shirts outside Government House, UDD leaders turned themselves into police custody on the following day. The physical toll included 123 injuries and two deaths, the latter involving local residents’ clash with protesters.

This recent drama and brinkmanship was not unprecedented in Thailand’s three-year crisis. A starkly opposed set of circumstances last year featured the pro-establishment yellow-shirt demonstrators under the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) who railed against two elected governments favored by the red shirts and aligned to Thaksin Shinawatra, a former premier turned fugitive now wanted by the Thai authorities. The army decidedly stayed on the sidelines while the PAD had its way with seizures of Government House and Bangkok’s international airport last December. The army chief publicly suggested that the pro-UDD prime minister at the time should resign in view of street protesters.

Ultimately, the Constitution Court dissolved the ruling party and left a vacuum for Mr. Abhisit to fill. To the reds, Mr. Abhisit’s coalition government may have constitutionally coalesced in parliament through the power brokerage of his Democrat Party’s backers in the army, judiciary and PAD, but its democratic credentials are tainted and incomplete. Thailand’s contested democracy in the eyes of the UDD and beyond means that Establishment prerogatives and preferences have carried the day for too long.

While the red shirts have lost the battle, it would be mistaken to write off their crusade against gross injustices in Thai society–between the haves and have-nots, between the traditional elite and the governed–as long as they remain unrecognized and unaddressed. Elite consensus held Thailand together in years past and enabled remarkable economic development, but it is coming loose at the seams. New social strata and the bottom rungs of society want a louder voice and a greater share of the pie, and are decreasingly willing to accept outcomes determined by traditional power brokers at the top.

Having overcome an ominous uprising, Mr. Abhisit and his backers still appear reluctant to respect and recognize the claims and grievances of the red shirts. The pro-establishment bias in Thai society runs deep. Most movers and shakers have an incentive to see the Abhisit government succeed and to see Thailand move forward in a direction consistent with establishment interests. They heard the reds’ noises but they discounted them on various grounds from gullibility and stupidity to financial opportunism. They resort to the comfort and convenience of seeing Mr. Thaksin as the sole force behind the reds. Now that Mr. Thaksin has been further disgraced and discredited during the red shirts’ downfall, they will be tempted to conclude that all’s normal, that the brief sound and fury seen in Thailand was just a passing nuisance.

But the reds represented more than Mr. Thaksin. Their quest for the will of the majority to shine in a genuine democracy was real and relentless. Their efforts came to naught this time, but the anti-establishment sentiments behind them are likely to simmer and fester until they find an outlet somewhere else sometime down the road. The undercurrents against establishment forces are deep and wide in Thailand. The lack of recognition and accommodation will make them pent-up and potent.

Thailand’s ongoing transformation should not lead it to replicate the experience of Nepal, as the institution of the monarchy is integral to Thai history and identity. Nor does it want to follow in the footsteps of the Philippines, whose periodic people’s power movements brought neither political stability nor economic vibrancy. And it should not turn the clock all the way back to end up in comparison to Burma’s military dictatorship. Indonesia’s democratic transition after decades of autocratic rule offers hope. Somewhere out there lies Thailand’s organic and optimal longer-term destination.

The onus for the way ahead now rests on Mr. Abhisit and his supporters. He should reach out to the reds rather than to mop up their remnants. What is needed next is the willingness of establishment forces to make self-enlightened reforms, adjustments and concessions in coming to terms with the grievances and expectations of the early 21st century to reconcile Thailand’s inheritance from the past and its future demands. Otherwise, popular movements for greater justice and a fairer shake may well reappear in other shapes, forms and colors.

Thitinan Pongsudhirak is associate professor and director of Chulalongkorn University’s Institute of Security and International Studies.

Thitinan is right on the mark in many ways, but there are a few wildcards in the mix. Quite frankly I am wondering how on earth a reconciliation can progress at the moment. I am not quite sure that we have even reached the second or third episode in what promises to be a long running soap opera.

The red and yellow divides were created and caused this division that Thitinan refers to, that much I agree with (to a certain extent it was an offshoot of the saga created by a fusion of expedience and genuine grievances); but I think now we get down to the nitty gritty and find out who the real friends are.

[Plus]

Reconciliation is another word for red victory. Having failed to spark a revolution, they want to achieve exactly the same goals under the name of reconciliation.

What exactly it would reconcile is anyone's guess.

Perhaps if they allow only politicians who sworn off Thaksin, perhaps that would be acceptable to yellows. Maybe that's the goal - to isolate the die hards.

[webfact]

Nakhon Ratchasima redshirts to rally next week

Nakon Ratchasima red-shirted protesters will hold a mass rally on April 30 but will not wearing red shirts, its leader Chalong Sangratmekin said Monday.

His group made the decision during a meeting of its core leaders from 32 districts on April 19 in the province's Wang Nam Khieu district, Chalong said.

Chalong said, " We'll improve our strategies by no longer wearing in red and we won't make any troubles.

Its core leaders will be given pamphlets, documents, VCDs and still photographs so that they would tell correct information to our supporters in the province.

- THE NATION -

[Plus]

What exactly do they want? Do they want monopoly on manipulating politics through proxies? Apparently if army has a say - it's a no no. When Thaksin approves cabinet appointments it's "true democracy".

And who do they want to reconcile with? So far it's only a list of red demands wihout a single consession to anyone or even naming the reconciliation counterpart.

It's not reconciliation, it's Empire strikes back. Disgraced politicians want to run roughshod over people as if nothing had happened - a recipe for another disaster.

[grandpops]

Reconciliation is another word for red victory. Having failed to spark a revolution, they want to achieve exactly the same goals under the name of reconciliation.

What exactly it would reconcile is anyone's guess.

Perhaps if they allow only politicians who sworn off Thaksin, perhaps that would be acceptable to yellows. Maybe that's the goal - to isolate the die hards.

This "Thaksin as bogeyman" approach is just what the army want. It's a welcome distraction from their incompetence and gerrymandering. Whilst people see them as protectors against Thaksin, they are not anylysing the situation on the ground correctly ie. this an ongoing coup that started in 2006, not a return to democracy.

At no time have they relinquished control, they have all their appointees in place ruling according to a constitution they made. A constitution that nobody outside their elite circles had any input into, nor one that anybody that is not of their ilk will will be able to influence.

The goal of Democracy is not to isolate anybody. Extremists attract marginal votes from marginal supporters, thats democracy. After all the judgements, bans, disbanding of parties - but of course not the (anti)-Democratic party, the mass propaganda and bans on radio stations, etc, Thai Rak Thai in its third guise in as many years still attracts enough of the population to win a general election. If, big if mind, they are allowed to stand in a free election.

An interesting post today suggested that the future of the reds and yellows may lie together in a joint front against the ruling elites, corrupt general and police all of whom seem to have escaped from high minded purges.

Any westerners who are not sure who runs this country should try this. Send your wife out to set up a small market stall anywhere in Bangkok. Just do it and see who starts coming round for money. Find out why all the pavements have small markings on them, even outside existing businesses whose shop frontage they completely obscure. Walk round and note the same sets of "ladies" in exactly their alloted space each night. It's not as random and chaotic as you think.

If you are a thai woman or have a thai wife, dress sexy and walk down pattaya beach as my wife once mistakenly did. The danger is not from Falang sex tourists, its from the "organisers". Think you are safe opposite Soi 9 (Police Station).... try it.

The PAD seem to have aligned themselves with the ruling classes as a sop to their ego of thinking themselves above the rural poor. In effect thinking themselves as a part of this class when if fact they are nowhere close, in terms of money or power. When they realise how little they have and how little they will be allowed to run the country as puppets of the Army, they may need to think again. They need to realise that middle class here is probably on a par with unemployment benefits in the west... at best.

There is currently a three way split in Thai society, not the us and them that PAD see and I think there is desire for change throughout the country, apart from this ruling elite. Abhisit is not offering it and will not be allowed to disrupt the business as usual attitude of those above him.

Even PAD are not blaming Thaksin for having Sondhi shot.

Edited April 20, 2009 by grandpops

[cmsally]

If you want my opinion, Abhisit is wedged between a brick wall and a brick wall. It is his escape plan to somehow escape this situation in a parliamentary fashion.

Although he is being used as the stepping stone for others, he is now hoping to use others for his political survival before he gets duly submerged.

But that of course is just my opinion.