shopgurl Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 I am not in any way discriminating or generalizing but I really would like to know what is the facination with bar girls. Apparently this seems to be one of the most posted topic, therefore I would like to understand such relationships. Is it the submissive nature of these women that allures foreign men, or am I wrong and that these relationships are really formed through a undescribable latent connection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chonabot Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Undescribable , just undescribable......babble...babble... Bar Girls = submissive ??????? Undescribable Undescribabbbbble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxexile Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 a really interesting question that i'm sure will start a long discussion. but please shopgurl, do not for one minute think that these women or any other thai women are submissive.you could not be further from the reality of what attracts western men to asian women.asian women possess what can only be called the pure essence of femininity,and before you get a mental picture of fluffy pink things and giggling dolls,i dont associate femininity with weakness in the presence of men. femininity is what has always attracted men to women.it is not the same as feminism.thai women are strong in a way that western women are not.the roles are defined and the boundaries do not blur.its not about who is the boss.and its not about who does the ironing.i can only speak about my relationship with my wife. she is not from the bar scene.and can speak perfect english.this does not make her any less thai or more westernised though.thai women can certainly stand up for themselves without the help of a man.thai men are the weaker sex in this country,thats why they have to resort to slapping their women around a lot.look around,its the women that keep this country going. before i met my wife i enjoyed the bar scene,for the ready availability of pretty girls and the limitless possibilities for sexual fun.the girls have an ability to make the man feel wanted and happy.for money.in my case,as i couldnt speak thai in those days,the fun ended and boredom set in when the conversation dried up.and i would move on to another girl for a few days,and so on and on and on. after a point i just burnt out,and found that i'd had enough.the girls were fine,as in any strata of society there are some delightful,honest,good people to be found in the bars.i know guys who have been married to bar girls for many years,still communicate in a strange combination of present tense and hand signals,yet have raised families and are still in love.others have ended up in terrible situations,having married nasty people with nasty families.if you cant speak the language,its a bit of a gamble i think. many girls want to find a partner,and in the foriegn man they may find a way out of their normal life which they find unsatisfactory.if they dont do bar work then the opportunities are not great.the same forces are at work that have driven people all over the world to emigrate or whatever to improve their lot.some girls do it because it is the easy option.in another country they would be living off the state on benefits. men are always attracted to beautiful women,and women with no money will often prefer a man with money to a man without.its a basic survival trait that no amount of political correctness can alter.and the fat 50 year old drunk with the 20 year old babe should not surprise anybody.he is getting his ego fed and she is getting the bills paid. both parties are happy.no problem.to the western man,when given the choice between femininity thai style,or the increasing masculinization of the western woman,i think many would go the thai route. i'm very happy that i did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buasaard Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Is it the submissive nature of these women that allures foreign mensubmissive? Are you kidding? Thai women are among the least submissive people in the world. I have quite a lot of thai friends (women), and I don't know even one could be defined as such.he girls were fine,as in any strata of society there are some delightful,honest,good people to be found in the bars.i know guys who have been married to bar girls for many years,still communicate in a strange combination of present tense and hand signals,yet have raised families and are still in love.others have ended up in terrible situations,having married nasty people with nasty families.if you cant speak the language,its a bit of a gamble i think. many girls want to find a partner,and in the foriegn man they may find a way out of their normal life which they find unsatisfactory Fully agree with you. I have the same experience as you have. I know good bar girls married with farangs, as there are bad "non bar girls".I am not going to the bars anymore (otherwise my wife would cut my throat), but for what I see it seems that what you say, is how it used to be. It's seems to me that things are deteriorating on this field. Ten years ago in Phuket, there were a lot of girls with farangs "hand in hand" during the day. Bar girls were more "mia chao" or "rented wives". Now I don't see so many, it seems that the "short time" scene is much more usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopgurl Posted September 18, 2003 Author Share Posted September 18, 2003 Thank you Taxexile for your reply. In addition, the reason for this interest of mine is also because I'm a Thai woman - born here, raised in the States. And from my own experience I have been confronted by foreign men in our local bar scene but as soon as they hear that I speak perfect English, it's like garlic and vampires..... What my point really is, I just feel that Thai women (whether be it bar girls, call girls, working girls, Thai girls) should deserve more respect as women of substance and not because of the generalization/foreign belief of 'come to Thailand and get yourself a nice Thai lady to take care of you....' But I'm guessing we have a long way to go......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p1p Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 It is a pity but the a large percentage of farang men who regularise the bars and red-light entertainment venues seem to be somewhat inadequate back home. They have great difficulty forming normal relationships with women with whom they can communicate in a common language. It is so much easier to pick up and pay for companionship and sex when language is unnecessary, a high denomination note and hand signals suffice to persuade her to your bed. Over the last forty years I have had to help pick up the pieces and put more men than I can remember back on their feet when their life fell apart after their ex-bargirl wife ran off with the family fortune, presumably returning to the boyfriend at home. One particular man had this happen with four wives in succession over a seven-year period. You can probably imagine, inadequacy hardly justifies his description. Other men are simply red-blooded and are willing to pay little Eastern lasses for the use of their bodies. On holiday having a good time so why not enjoy myself a bit more with a quick lay. Most of these guys would deny ever visiting a prostitute back home. Somehow they think it is different when the girl is small and dark haired and they only have to pay a small amount to make use of her. ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chonabot Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 p1p has it all figured out...fair play! Its near impossible for a woman to come to terms with p4p (pay for pleasure) , its a waste of time trying to figure it out. Don't lay all of the blame on the Western male though please. Thailands p4p is huge , the service caters mainly for Thai males , about 5% is the proportion set up for Western/Eastern tourists. The Eastern culture including Japan/China/Korea/PI and many more have a different attitude towards paying for sex. Thailand/ PI are the one's in the public eye ,mainly because of the set up catering for tourists. Toxin is trying to rectify that , but I believe the p4p for Thai males will remain largely untouched. This is one of those subjects that cannot benefit from a debate , the same as Boxing, fox hunting etc. You're either for it or against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxexile Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 but what about those who can't make up their mind about it,those who need time to think,those who need to try it before coming to a decision? and how about addressing shopgurls question about what makes these relationships so attractive to western men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopgurl Posted September 18, 2003 Author Share Posted September 18, 2003 And yet we all find ourselves back at the beginning....if the buying stops then the flesh trade stops as well...but that only exist in Utopia right? If you guys have chance here's a good read: Eleven minutes by Paulo Coelho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chonabot Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Tax , I think you addressed her question very well , my point was , in my opinion, it's impossible for a lady to see certain things from a males viewpoint. My post was just to explain the set up in Thailand , just in case some people were not aware. Regards a decision on paying for sex , why should a lady need to make that decision , regards males having a decision , surely that's up to them to work out. Shopgurl ,I'm assuming you are a Western lady? Try re-educating 20 generations of Thai / Oriental males as to stopping the flesh trade , good luck to you. Chonabot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxexile Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 i would like to know shopgurls view on it all. are users of sex services seen by women as sad raincoated figures scurrying around in the dark, or just as people availing themselves of what is out there and having fun,or do you see the girls as victims preyed upon by men. i understand that in bangkok there are bars or clubs that cater for women,i.e have men available for them.if any female forum readers have any experience or views on these places then please join in the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopgurl Posted September 18, 2003 Author Share Posted September 18, 2003 I have had male friends try to explain to me why they use such services and some were straightforward by saying that at times they're lonely but not yet ready for a commitment....other times some other reasons surprised me. I had another friend who said that sometimes he pays for them just to listen to him. So what I'm trying to say is that I'm not sure how I view men that use these services (editing out sex since it's not relevant all the times)....at times I'm saddened that women think that their only worth rest upon having a man to take care of them and the belief that it's the only solution. On the other hand, I take pity on such men at times that they have to resort to finding a women that they can hardly communicate with but yet are content with the happiness that brings. I guess maybe...some things aren't meant to be understood but to be left unanswered? Maybe the truth is just an easy explanation but we rather not face that truth.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Oh Shopgurl...don't start another thread to drag 'em out again. You know full well the ' Third World ' syndrome in regard to the topic. Don't encourage the sex tourists to justify their role in the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopgurl Posted September 18, 2003 Author Share Posted September 18, 2003 I'm not encouraging the justification of these foreigners but I'm asking for a rational understanding. There maybe more to it than just meets the eye???? Or I maybe naive....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxexile Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 at times I'm saddened that women think that their only worth rest upon having a man to take care of them and the belief that it's the only solution. in just about every species on the planet it is the male that provides for the female,this seems to be nature.its done as instinct,without having to think and rationalize, because out of all the species only humans can rationalize and question and change the status quo. maybe the natural way IS for men to provide to a certain extent for their women.there is an element of symbiosis in all partnerships.if there was no need for women to look to men for some protection then all men would be useful for was insemination.a reverse of the chauvinists argument that women have no use outside the bedroom. if that was so then the family unit would be in danger and if that happened i believe society would suffer very much.so when you say that it seems sad that women think their only worth rests upon having a man take care of them,maybe it is a small manifestation of that worth that helps 2 people to stay together and maintain the family unit.and in the same way that women might need men, we men might need someone to take care of,too,its part of our make up, thats our worth,and its not demeaning to either sex to have these needs. we all need someone.we often dont know why, and perhaps its better not to try and work out why.but just get on with it and cut down on all the analysis.(a note to all our californian cousins out there ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Zumwalt Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ??? Years ago I once was in a position where bar girls, called entertainers with health cards updated weekly in South Korea were a major part of my professional as an Army Officer, I was assigned the Western Corridor, Soul to the DMZ. I had 400 Korean owned and run night clubs, about 12,000 prostitutes, some of the bigger clubs had 100 girls or more. It was my duty to put any club making trouble for American GI's off limits to American GI's, the reason I sometimes put a club off limits or out of business was a high VD rate, all VD was reported by each GI, the name of the lady and the club he got it from. When one club got many reports, or the girl within the club was IDed numerous times. Myself, my interpreter, my driver who as well spoke the language showed up at the club. We had conference with the club owner, usually in the back room drinking Korean rum, eating, the girls would actually put the food in our mouth for us, kind of feed us. After dinner we would walk the club checking some health cards on each lady seeing which were up to date. After all GIs left, they had to report back to base by 12 midnight, we had ID allowed us out all night. Well the party started at Midnight, more than one lady in our rooms was often the case. Visiting clubs nightly becme a way of life, they told me I had the best job in the US Army and the Korean Club owners spoke so highly of me I even got promoted to Captain, so the message from this expereince with bar girls is that yes a relationship with one is definitely worth while, good loving, great company for the night or even in a relationship and sometimes advancement on the job. Bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxexile Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 thank you for sharing that with us . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chonabot Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 sob... it moved me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackerel Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 the girls would actually put the food in our mouth for us, kind of feed us Maybe they were trying to stop you talking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellbound Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Bud oh Bud, You are amazing, you have only been on this forum since 07/09/03 or as you American put it 09/07/03, and you have managed to post no less than 50 times with your views and aspects of Asia. A real (Mr Know-It-All). You see, I feel you are one of those Americans who give your country a bad name, always shouting the odds and getting paranoid over the smallest thing. Please click this link to see My own PERSONAL VIEW OF YOU Just Look Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinkster Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Spellbound, fantastic. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herald Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 I guess maybe...some things aren't meant to be understood but to be left unanswered? Maybe the truth is just an easy explanation but we rather not face that truth.... Hmmm...perhaps I can offer another perspective. I worked in Thailand for 6 months as a teacher. During that time I had met about 5 Thai women, other than colleagues. Not one of them was a "Bar Girl". How did I meet them? During my travels...in and around Bangkok. Sometimes it was a casual meeting on a bus...getting lost and asking for directions :-) ... sometimes it resulted from me striking a friendship with a shop owner and being introduced to a friend, daughter, mother.... I never seek out a Bar Girl ... there is no real need to visit that scene.......but that is just me. What is the attraction of a "Thai Lady". On the outside, they are Victorian. I had a teacher friend who was a lot of fun...but she would not even go to a restaurante alone with me....and I respected that. A Thai Lady has the capacity to make a man (this farang anyway) feel really wanted. It is difficult to describe but coming from a culture where it is almost a sin to be a male (I hate paying for the sins of my gender) this is such a turn-on. My advice to you is that you avoid the Bar scene. For you there is too much competition and in most cases the prize isn't worth it anyway. Rather, strike up a conversation with a farang riding on the bus or visiting your shop...I think you will be pleasantly suprised at the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 BUD is a modest little being...just doing his best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Zumwalt Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 ??? dr_Pat_Pong Dr. Pong says {BUD is a modest little being...just doing his best.} Tell me Pat is it MS or MR. Lets address the modesty issue. Does Bud use a registered user name starting off "dr" to impress the world with, gee I am impressed your either a Ph.D. or Medical Doctor. Perhaps I should reregister my user name with "MBA" "MS" "MA" since I have all three of them. So lets not go there. Besides I thought you and I either shook hands or kissed, belay the kiss if your a guy or Pre Operative Katoey or Ladyboy .. Post Operative Considered. It is true meeting outside the bar is much better, but for me I need a Thai lady that speaks English. On my last trip to Thailand last June 2003, having two black eyes from my hose job, seems the pressure of the operation even pooped a few arteries in my left eye, no problem with the chin implant, anyway after my second week of sitting around the hotel room watching movies, sometimes in Thai and sometimes in English, Thai movies on cable are so fun. Really, who knows what their saying? I ventured out walking for miles, in and out of the side walk shops. The road side foods are great, love the meat sticks. I walked by some Thai ladies, they looked like teenagers, to my amazement one of the three says in perfect English," I love you!" For the first time ever I turned red in the face, matched my black eyes really nicely. When I saw their ages, or what I thought their ages were I kept walking. Seems getting involved with under age ladies in Thailand is a quick way into the detention facility or simply called jail time. Ooops! Not a nice place to recover from surgery. Yes, there are friendly Thai's out there, at the dentist office the girls seemed fascinated, maybe a Western male was new to them. They all gathered around my chair, four or five, while the female dentist did her work. The entire second floor of the dentist office, every lady on the floor was standing around me at my dentist chair, was the attraction all my cavities! Never mind the black eyes, at the reception desk I made eye contact with the girl who booked me the appointments, she could speak some English so hence, we did do a few things together minus any serious romance, just really nice simple walks, a few lunches, really nice lady. Bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopgurl Posted September 19, 2003 Author Share Posted September 19, 2003 "bit more for those horrid little extras (ie the Thai FAMILY) " What is that about??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopgurl Posted September 19, 2003 Author Share Posted September 19, 2003 Herald - thanks for sharing your experience and rest assured I'm not in the bar scene (or maybe I should reconsider?? hehe) You are maybe one of those guys (needle in a haystack) that doesn't look to bar girls, not that I'm saying it's wrong to or not to. But I believe the majority is, in the course of an expat's time here I believe that they do at one time or another enlist the company of a bar girl. Therefore, I'm simply trying to better understand whether is this out of convenience or are decent girls (Thai girls) really hard to find? Because it surely seems that the decent expats are hard to find, and if you do stumble upon one, they're already married, and it maybe with a bar girl (as proven with experience)...irony I suppose.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 How would you know that most (the maj.) expats are involved or become involved during part of their tenure with bar girls? Ummm... unless you are one that has slept with the "majority" of the expat population in BKK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shopgurl Posted September 19, 2003 Author Share Posted September 19, 2003 I apologize for my generalization, but I did clarify "believe" although this maybe my wrong doing.....but one does not have to see to know...... Slept with? Honestly that would be none of your business....but for the sake of proving a point....my ex did admit that he had once did and I certainly didn't hold that against him. It's the fact that he was honest and knowing that there is nothing wrong with it. Also from conversing with his circle of friends, they were quite honest about it themselves. So Benny, does that help you sleep better now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Just to clarify what you are saying....because your ex slept with a prostitute and so did some of his friends, that gives you the right to propogate this bs about the "majority" of the expat population in Thailand? Saying you believe that the majority of expats in Thailand are or have been involved with prostitutes, is like me saying that I believe that the "majority" of thai women are prostitutes - something that I don't believe and I am sure would anger you. So please Shopgurl think before you post, and wherever possible try to avoid generalisations and post views and opinions that you can substantiate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 ....you aren't related to Bud Z are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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