My Modest Proposal To Solve Thailand's Political Crisis

[flying]

The USA are a democratic country. Actually it's a great model in action. When you see the excess of the Bush administration and the way a democratic process corrected these excess, democracy is definitively the way to go.

Did I miss something?

I mean I agree 100% excess of Bush yes

But who corrected it when?

You are missing it. Its happening now. Try turning on another station, and turning off Fox News, and you'll get a better idea.

Lordy economics is not your strong suit eh lawngnome?

Lets see what is the new deficit?

Say again????

What?????????????

Oh hang on here it is....................

$11,264,710,378,661.41

Can you read that? If not just ask & we can help you out.

Oh here let us help you

That is 11 TRILLION

That is as of May 10th 2009

What will it cost to march into Afghanistan & get our heads handed to us?

Never mind

Listen Pal Fox news is not something I watch but it would be a big step up from

the Looney Toons your watching if you think anything more than debt that cannot be repaid in yours or your grandkids time is happening right now.

We may have a poor attempt at excess correction but it is in no way corrected nor will it be in your lifetime.

Edited May 10, 2009 by flying

[Pierrot]

Scary ? I don't know. They just want Thailand to be part of the world, in the 21st century, not a fairytale kingdom. For a 20 something young graduate I think it's quite understandable.

And for business people already involved in global trade, it makes even more sense.

What future do you want for Thailand, Plus ? Some kind of zoo, where people from the 21st century can visit and see "indigenous" people in their "natural habitat"? We already have Burma for that. You know what happened to Indians in the reservation that was supposed to preserve their life style, do you Plus ? That's the future you want for Thailand ?

[rixalex]

Your agenda is clearly against Thaksin.

It's not as if your agenda is hidden.

Unfortunately (for you), a huge number of people in Thailand still see Thaksin as the democratically elected leader of this country.

And unfortunately for you that's not a matter of fact but a matter of your perception. Other people have a different perception of the current situation. We'll only know for certain when there had been an election, which needs to happen sooner rather than later, once things have stabilized.

So whatever solution that may be found, it has to include Thaksin.

A proper and functioning democracy should not include convicted criminals in any way shape or form. They shouldn't even have the right to vote, let alone hold positions of power.

[Briggsy]

When dealing with Thai politicians, it is paramount to consider how the very lucrative budget will be divvied up.

[flying]

A proper and functioning democracy should not include convicted criminals in any way shape or form. They shouldn't even have the right to vote, let alone hold positions of power.

In Thailand?

Are you American by chance?

Seems everyone is fired up to copy US democracy

Well then it is important to include criminals in a proper democracy

Edited May 10, 2009 by flying

[Pierrot]

Your agenda is clearly against Thaksin.

It's not as if your agenda is hidden.

Unfortunately (for you), a huge number of people in Thailand still see Thaksin as the democratically elected leader of this country.

And unfortunately for you that's not a matter of fact but a matter of your perception. Other people have a different perception of the current situation. We'll only know for certain when there had been an election, which needs to happen sooner rather than later, once things have stabilized.

Agree, different people, different perception.

The funny thing is you never hear a dictator talking against democracy. They just say it's not the right time, they will return power to the people once things have stabilized ..

You're right, I've no hidden agenda. Power should be returned to the people and to the government they have democratically elected before the coup. And if it's too difficult (??), let's have election right now.

[Plus]

Scary ? I don't know. They just want Thailand to be part of the world, in the 21st century, not a fairytale kingdom.

I don't know in which part of the world threatening to blow up apartment blocks is acceptable, in 21 century. I know of some parts of the world that are considered civilised, where perpetrators would have been shot by snipers, but I haven't got PhD from Texas, what do I know!

[Pierrot]

Scary ? I don't know. They just want Thailand to be part of the world, in the 21st century, not a fairytale kingdom.

I don't know in which part of the world threatening to blow up apartment blocks is acceptable, in 21 century. I know of some parts of the world that are considered civilised, where perpetrators would have been shot by snipers, but I haven't got PhD from Texas, what do I know!

Sorry, you don't really make sense.

Nowhere in the world blowing up an apartment block is acceptable.

But what is the relation with this thread ?

[Plus]

It is acceptable to western educated reds that scare the shit out of yellow Thais, that's the relation.

[Pierrot]

It is acceptable to western educated reds that scare the shit out of yellow Thais, that's the relation.

If you see it this way.

But are yellow Thais the future of Thailand ? Or just the past that is afraid to fade away ?

[Lancelot]

Actually, I talked to a number of PAD supporters and that's what scare them the most. Thailand is changing. They can't cope with it.

I'd say this is pretty much right and the "haves" are not going to willingly share with the "have nots."

[Plus]

But are yellow Thais the future of Thailand ?

Yes, to a degree that growing middle class represents any country's future.

I don't see Isanese farmers taking charge any time soon. Their feudal lords stake their claim on central power, though. Those guys scare the shit out me, too.

[rixalex]

They just say it's not the right time, they will return power to the people once things have stabilized ..

As power was never taken from the people, nothing needs to be given back. Abhisit came to power through the same parliamentary system as did Samak and Somchai, whom i don't recall you opposing.

It's Abhisit's right to decide when to go to the polls and there's no reason to be hustled into it by a mob that serves the interests of a criminal.

You're right, I've no hidden agenda.

That's true. Your agenda is very clear. Just because you don't hide it though, doesn't make it right.

[ThNiner]

Actually, I talked to a number of PAD supporters and that's what scare them the most. Thailand is changing. They can't cope with it.

I'd say this is pretty much right and the "haves" are not going to willingly share with the "have nots."

I have to say that Pierrot lied. The PAD wants change. And they want it ASAP. They wanna see Thai politics rid of the old professional politicians. They want new politics where politicians are the actual volunteers who wanna serve the people, not some specific rich and powerful clique. It's just a dam_n lie to say that the PAD are scared of changes.

Think about it. If the PAD wanted to maintain the status quo, why did they want to form a political party when the Dems, according to people like Pierrot and Dbren, have already been doing just that?

Edited May 10, 2009 by ThNiner

[ThNiner]

It's Abhisit's right to decide when to go to the polls and there's no reason to be hustled into it by a mob that serves the interests of a criminal.

[Jingthing]

Well, I am happy to see a lively discussion here.

Some brief comments:

1. Thaksin bias. Yes, I am PERSONALLY extremely anti-Thaksin, but if you read my points carefully you will see it fairly gives and takes to Thaksin personally (it keeps him out of prison) and politically (it endorses many of his policies). On the other hand, it also gives and takes to the yellows, in that it bans Thaksin from politics, but rejects their rule of the elite and status quo change phobia.

2. To the poster who said it may be impossible for any new leader or a new party to not be tarnished with this insane red vs. yellow madness, you are probably correct.

3. To the poster who doubted a BRIGHT LIGHT, transparent politics would really play in Thailand, very good point, that is another reason the idea is on the lines of a cathartic transformation.

4. About the US, the political system and the capitalist economy are of course closely related, but there is a difference. Some recent events in US history show the incredible stability of the political system. Most countries after the Bush stolen election of 2000 would have devolved into something like modern Thailand. The US got over it and waited eight long damaging years to correct the mistake. In the current Thai system, that could never happen without violence. I do agree the US economically is in deep doo doo, and it is going to have to adjust to a different role in the world, but other empires have managed that in the past (Portugal).

5. Another comment about those who think "Siam" is doing just fine themselves. No. No, they are not. Recently over Songkran Thailand came very close to complete anarchy and total civil war. The very nation was at threat and the fundamentals have not changed. Change is needed here badly, and the red vs. yellow model is clearly not the answer.

6. About Abhisit. I think he is a good man. However, I think he may be fatally compromised in the current realpolitik because of his unsavory associations. Also he is not charismatic. He may be good enough to keep Thailand out of total chaos, and in the real world, that may the best that is realistically possible here and now.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Jingthing

[mhatami]

It is an American cultural trait, obnoxious or not, to observe things in foreign countries and make suggestions as to how to fix them. I don't shy away from that, I am proud to be American and I possess some typical American cultural traits.

In that spirit, here is my proposal on how Thailand can emerge from the current virtual civil war that currently shows no signs of improving anytime soon.

1. A new charismatic leader must emerge. He must be wealthy and well known, be totally clean of corruption, totally divorced from any hint of alliance with the reds or the yellows. This idea is impossible without such a person and I don't know of anyone like that. However, assuming such a person exists, the plan continues.

2. A new party is created, called something like the Thai Peace, Justice, and Reunification Party. It would be a compromise party that gives and takes to all sides as fairly as possible.

This is not far fetched for Thailand. Thaksin's TRT was created in the Thaksin era.

3. The new parties political agenda as follows

-- Openly admit Thailand is in a virtual civil war and they are the way out

-- Openly divorce from Thaksin and the red movement, and ALSO the yellow movement

-- Reject the entire color coding system, no colors for this new party

-- Clearly label Thaksin a criminal

-- Clearly label certain yellow leaders also criminals

-- Promise to create a justice structure that would expose, investigate, and punish all political criminals, red and yellow. However, the promise would be that this is a political process only and jail terms will not be a consequence, only lifetime bans from holding political office. This kind of thing happens in other countries, for example South Africa after apartheid

-- Seek the old red base, North, Isaan, etc, that is willing to reject the old vioilence and Thaksin as well

-- Seek the yellow Bangkok and southern democrat base, on the basis that Abhisit is too politically compromised to be able to deliver real peace and reunification

-- Adopt populist economic policies, some similar to Thaksin (Abhisit has tried this as well). For example, more activism for poor people's health care, education, and small business development

-- Adopt strong pro-democratic policies, promise to end press censorship

-- Favor an activist anti-corruption effort to radically reform the Thai election process so that elections can no longer be bought

umm, you lost me right at your number one. And I am also an American, but i do not live in fantasy land.

[Jingthing]

but i do not live in fantasy land.

Its really quite a nice place if you can get a visa.

BTW, was it really necessary to paste in my entire long post just to bark your snarky remark?

Edited May 10, 2009 by Jingthing

[flying]

Another comment about those who think "Siam" is doing just fine themselves.

Do you read Thai? Comprehend it?

Do you write Thai? Comprehend it?

Do you speak Thai? Comprehend it?

If not then you are basically saying you would like to change their country

but cannot even communicate with a 6 year old Thai?

If you said yes to all of the above good for you & your on your way.

Next,,,,,, You want to tell Siam how to run the country? Become a citizen get involved.

Why not? It is allowed & your sincere in your hopes for their betterment right?

I have no horse in this race really I do not. ( nor does any other falang really)

But what I get tired of is the pompous ...& yes your right it is obnoxious .....arm chair wanna be jockeys.

Leave the citizenship to the citizens.

Can you image a Thai citizen posting a comment in the Washington post about how he would/can make the US so much better? Oh & yes he posts it in Thai as he cannot read. write or speak English.

No need to reply OP if you agree or cannot read

Edited May 10, 2009 by flying

[dbrenn]

Another comment about those who think "Siam" is doing just fine themselves.

Leave the citizenship to the citizens.

Can you image a Thai citizen posting a comment in the Washington post about how he would/can make the US so much better? Oh & yes he posts it in Thai as he cannot read. write or speak English.

No need to reply OP if you agree or cannot read

Well there's a novel idea. Suggesting that guests in a country should leave its future to citizens.

Old fashioned, perhaps, but you may have a point. Wouldn't this forum be a quiet place without all these well-intended guests telling Thailand how it should run itself?

[flying]

Well there's a novel idea. Suggesting that guests in a country should leave its future to citizens.

Old fashioned, perhaps, but you may have a point. Wouldn't this forum be a quiet place without all these well-intended guests telling Thailand how it should run itself?

Well I must admit I am biased.....

Having been born in a Kingdom which was basically destroyed by the interests of

foreigners I hate to see the same thing happen to this Kingdom.

[Jingthing]

Well there's a novel idea. Suggesting that guests in a country should leave its future to citizens.

This is an expat forum. So we should restrict our discussion about Thailand to where to get good hamburgers? Says who?

Edited May 11, 2009 by Jingthing

[flying]

Well there's a novel idea. Suggesting that guests in a country should leave its future to citizens.

This is an expat forum. So we should restrict our discussion about Thailand to where to get good hamburgers? Says who?

Oh yes please...........

My Modest Proposal To Solve The Search For A Good Burger

[Sarge]

Another comment about those who think "Siam" is doing just fine themselves.

Do you read Thai? Comprehend it?

Do you write Thai? Comprehend it?

Do you speak Thai? Comprehend it?

If not then you are basically saying you would like to change their country

but cannot even communicate with a 6 year old Thai?

If you said yes to all of the above good for you & your on your way.

Next,,,,,, You want to tell Siam how to run the country? Become a citizen get involved.

Why not? It is allowed & your sincere in your hopes for their betterment right?

I have no horse in this race really I do not. ( nor does any other falang really)

But what I get tired of is the pompous ...& yes your right it is obnoxious .....arm chair wanna be jockeys.

Leave the citizenship to the citizens.

Can you image a Thai citizen posting a comment in the Washington post about how he would/can make the US so much better? Oh & yes he posts it in Thai as he cannot read. write or speak English.

No need to reply OP if you agree or cannot read

lol good post

I’d leave Thailand as it is, warts and all, that’s what makes the place fascinating and different to the western world. If one starts chopping and changing, cherry picking the aspects & traits that likes whilst adding foreign concepts taken from their own countries, you’ll end it up with a cultural mishmash. One cannot change certain cultural characteristics without affecting others, in other words if one implants liberal socialist policies (so dear in the west) and anglo-saxon business, working ethos to Thailand, the unintended cause effect is a society that frowns upon certain behaviours practiced by foreign absconders in places like Pattaya, whilst making it an expensive life style.

Just look at a possible reverse scenario; let’s say that Somchai a retired bath bus driver from Nakhon Nowhere, leaves Thailand and absconds in San Francisco. After years he still can’t spit a word of the local lingo and he’s bewildered by it all. He’s unable to comprehend what’s going around him and yet he pontificates on the American way of life and political system. He’s judges everything and everybody by, using his Thai moral & cultural compass. Offering his wisdom on how to fix things in the host country.

tellya wot, that is a great script for a Chevy Chase & Steve Martin movie

[Jingthing]

I am stopping following this thread.

If people actually start talking about the SUBSTANCE of the ideas rather than having fun and games with personal attacks and anti-Americanism, can some friendly person please PM me?

Otherwise, talk amongst yourselves.

Note to mods: assuming that is not going to happen, as the OP I would be quite pleased if you CLOSE this. Cheers, children.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Jingthing

[flying]

lol good post

I'd leave Thailand as it is, warts and all, that's what makes the place fascinating and different to the western world. If one starts chopping and changing, cherry picking the aspects & traits that likes whilst adding foreign concepts taken from their own countries, you'll end it up with a cultural mishmash. One cannot change certain cultural characteristics without affecting others, in other words if one implants liberal socialist policies (so dear in the west) and anglo-saxon business, working ethos to Thailand, the unintended cause effect is a society that frowns upon certain behaviours practiced by foreign absconders in places like Pattaya, whilst making it an expensive life style.

Just look at a possible reverse scenario; let's say that Somchai a retired bath bus driver from Nakhon Nowhere, leaves Thailand and absconds in San Francisco. After years he still can't spit a word of the local lingo and he's bewildered by it all. He's unable to comprehend what's going around him and yet he pontificates on the American way of life and political system. He's judges everything and everybody by, using his Thai moral & cultural compass. Offering his wisdom on how to fix things in the host country.

tellya wot, that is a great script for a Chevy Chase & Steve Martin movie

Good Analogy & your right it would be a great comedy.

Your also right though in your first paragraph you sum up what I have seen.

BTW: to the OP Sarge did address the substance directly

Edited May 11, 2009 by flying

[samran]

My suggestion was sincere and in no way coming from an attitude of superiority. If you think that, you didn't even read it. Another point, Siam may be old, but its modern democracy stage has hardly begun. Compare to the mature stable system in the US that has functioned for hundreds of years, well, there is no comparison. I did not propose the US system here or suggest a change from a parliamentary system, but now that you mention it, of course constitutional reform would be a necessary part of any major change here. They are of course already talking about that. I am sorry I mentioned the American part, it only enrages/confuses people. Of course I agree any leader of such a major change movement would be at serious risk for his life. He would have to be a real selfless patriot and hero. One reason I figured a charismatic leader is a necessary ingredient for Thailand to make this sea change is the phenom of Thaksin. He was that, but he was a very corrupt, selfish, flawed one. Thai people really went for that, so the idea is that same energy that went for Thaksin if directed to a leader that was sincerely for positive change would be powerful.

Your agenda is clearly against Thaksin. Unfortunately (for you), a huge number of people in Thailand still see Thaksin as the democratically elected leader of this country. So whatever solution that may be found, it has to include Thaksin.

since when do unelected care taker prime ministers who held on to power for 6 months following the last election which was disolved (given that a fair chunk of the electorate decided to boycott the election) all of a sudden become "democratically elected"?

I'll say it again, he wasn't a democratically elected anything at the time of the coup, nor is he a democrat in any true sense of the word. Live by the sword, die by the sword I say. He just kept hanging around like a bad smell.....

[Plus]

I am stopping following this thread.

If people actually start talking about the SUBSTANCE ..

There's no substance in this plan - no neutral leaders able to pull us out of this mess.

Instead we should be thinking how to make the best of living through the coming dark ages, I don't see any improvements for years, at best maybe three-five years of relative peace without any actual improvements before something starts to change for the better.

[oldsparrow]

Let's face it there is no immidiate and effective solution to address all the current problems.

Live with this for sometimes, solve new problems piecemeal and see what is the real change into the brighter side.

After 1932 Coup and abolition of absolute Monachy, the government promoted the rule of law under the Constitution, a folk REALLY asked "Who is this Mr. Constitution? Is he a son of Praya Phahon Ponpayuhasena (One of Coup leaders, then Prime Minister).

It has been a long way from Magna Carta / Cromwell War / Bill of Rights / 1789 / 1848 etc. as well...

Also a humble opinion form a fifth generation Thai whose all folks had served the state.

PS:

1. Praya Phahon was trained in the German Army Academy. Some of the classmates were Hermann Goring and Hideki Tojo.

2. Goring front teeth have been knocked out by the fist of another Thai cadet there, friendly temper among teenagers.

[oldsparrow]

Well there's a novel idea. Suggesting that guests in a country should leave its future to citizens.

This is an expat forum. So we should restrict our discussion about Thailand to where to get good hamburgers? Says who?

Oh yes please........... My Modest Proposal To Solve The Search For A Good Burger

For good burger:

The fast ones: "Mos Burger" in Paragon, Central World, Central Chidlom and the Emporium.

The "one": Hard Rock Cafe, Siam Square and Pattaya.