The Lesser Of Two Evils

[cnxmike]

In the may edition of "City Life" there is an article about " Burma and Thailand's relationship through the centuries".

There I've found this statement:

"...I would rather my daughter married a farang than a Burmese. I was told by one mother sounding as though she was speaking of the lesser of two evils..."

Good to know, that a farang husband is not the worst, what could happen to a Thai woman.

[Paagai]

Not that I have any intention of marrying anyone , but given a choice between a Thai or Burmese (Shan or Tai Yai) the later would win hands down.

Comparing Tai Yai and Thai friends, the Tai Yai are generally much nicer people. Warm, open, genuine, more fun and largely without hidden agendas. Most are also very hard working. Whereas the Thais tend to be much more aloof, devious, xenophobic and mired in hidden agendas, those without some Chinese blood line are also down right lazy .

One thing that pisses me off here is how many Thais treat the Tai Yai's as some lower life form. And the reputation the Tai Yai have for being marauding heathen (which I concede is sometimes deserved) stems from behaviour largely inspired by their treatment in Thailand. Though past history where roles may have been reversed somehow never seems to get forgotten .

Mai Soong Mai Soong

[WaiWai]

Interesting comment. I wonder how often such marriages happen. What if he were a very wealthy Burmese man?

What if the son of a CM local wanted to marry a Burmese woman? Or if the son wanted to set up house with a Burmese man?

I wonder if there still less desirable alternatives ?

What's the hierarchy, if we include ethnicity and nationality, social status, wealth, religious inclination and gender?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Basically, none of the people in SE Asia like any given other country they share a border with. ( Slight exception possibly between Thai and Lao; while they still look down on the Lao, at least they don't hate their guts. )

[sassienie]

Not that I have any intention of marrying anyone , but given a choice between a Thai or Burmese (Shan or Tai Yai) the later would win hands down.

Comparing Tai Yai and Thai friends, the Tai Yai are generally much nicer people. Warm, open, genuine, more fun and largely without hidden agendas. Most are also very hard working. Whereas the Thais tend to be much more aloof, devious, xenophobic and mired in hidden agendas, those without some Chinese blood line are also down right lazy .

One thing that pisses me off here is how many Thais treat the Tai Yai's as some lower life form. And the reputation the Tai Yai have for being marauding heathen (which I concede is sometimes deserved) stems from behaviour largely inspired by their treatment in Thailand. Though past history where roles may have been reversed somehow never seems to get forgotten .

Mai Soong Mai Soong

You are making unfounded generalizations about people according to their race.

The same as when some Thais consider all Farangs as rich, drunken sex crazed second class citizens.

This is normally an indicator of low intelligence, lack of education and pig ignorance.

Your descriptions of these people stems from a gutter culture based on brain dead philosophy.

[Jingthing]

The same as when some Thais consider all Farangs as rich, drunken sex crazed second class citizens.

Almost none of us "farangs" are ANY class of citizen here.

[Lobin]

Not that I have any intention of marrying anyone , but given a choice between a Thai or Burmese (Shan or Tai Yai) the later would win hands down.

Comparing Tai Yai and Thai friends, the Tai Yai are generally much nicer people. Warm, open, genuine, more fun and largely without hidden agendas. Most are also very hard working. Whereas the Thais tend to be much more aloof, devious, xenophobic and mired in hidden agendas, those without some Chinese blood line are also down right lazy .

One thing that pisses me off here is how many Thais treat the Tai Yai's as some lower life form. And the reputation the Tai Yai have for being marauding heathen (which I concede is sometimes deserved) stems from behaviour largely inspired by their treatment in Thailand. Though past history where roles may have been reversed somehow never seems to get forgotten .

Mai Soong Mai Soong

bigot!

[Rasseru]

You are making unfounded generalizations about people according to their race.

The same as when some Thais consider all Farangs as rich, drunken sex crazed second class citizens.

And are you suggesting there is something wrong with that?

[BigSnake]

No doubt better change of a good life with the RIGHT farang.

[PeaceBlondie]

I know someone who has two partners, both sons of Chiang Mai drunks. Both partners' mothers are uneducated peasants. The Chiang Mai muang mother is insane, but is locally respected. The other mother and her child are mistreated as Ta Yai. The OP sounds racist, but it begins with a very believable racist remark by a Thai, and refutes it. Are Thais more racist? Observation answers 'yes.'

[Maccheroncini]

I thought Thais would not marry a women with big feet!

[Paagai]

Not that I have any intention of marrying anyone , but given a choice between a Thai or Burmese (Shan or Tai Yai) the later would win hands down.

Comparing Tai Yai and Thai friends, the Tai Yai are generally much nicer people. Warm, open, genuine, more fun and largely without hidden agendas. Most are also very hard working. Whereas the Thais tend to be much more aloof, devious, xenophobic and mired in hidden agendas, those without some Chinese blood line are also down right lazy .

One thing that pisses me off here is how many Thais treat the Tai Yai's as some lower life form. And the reputation the Tai Yai have for being marauding heathen (which I concede is sometimes deserved) stems from behaviour largely inspired by their treatment in Thailand. Though past history where roles may have been reversed somehow never seems to get forgotten .

Mai Soong Mai Soong

You are making unfounded generalizations about people according to their race.

Sorry, they are not unfounded at all. I was making observations about the behaviour and attitudes of two groups of people I know and talk with on a daily basis. And I never said all Thais/Tai Yais; it was clear I was commenting about people I know.

The same as when some Thais consider all Farangs as rich, drunken sex crazed second class citizens.

Which was exactly my point!

The same as when some Thais consider all Tai Yai "Skoi" which is a favourite insult here.

This is normally an indicator of low intelligence, lack of education and pig ignorance.

Your descriptions of these people stems from a gutter culture based on brain dead philosophy.

Thanks for the compliment

One question: how many Tai Yai people do you really know well? Or were you just trolling?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

"Skoi"

What does that mean and/or how would you spell that in Thai? Never heard of it.. They might call them 'maew' or whatever though.

One question: how many Tai Yai people do you really know well? Or were you just trolling?

Come on, just about anyone who has a maid who isn't some relative of their Mrs has one who is Thai Yai.

Just about all of ours were.

Edited May 11, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Puwa]

This is very discouraging. Here I am trying to be as evil as I can, and I'm still the lesser. Shit.

[Paagai]

"Skoi"

What does that mean and/or how would you spell that in Thai? Never heard of it.. They might call them 'maew' or whatever though.

I'll have to ask someone for the correct Thai spelling as I doubt it's in the dicitonary. My understanding is it's slang meaning something like "the great unwashed" or dirty/smelly. Originally used to describe hippy and rasta types its use has now migrated to a derogatory word for Tai Yai too.

One question: how many Tai Yai people do you really know well? Or were you just trolling?

Come on, just about anyone who has a maid who isn't some relative of their Mrs has one who is Thai Yai.

Just about all of ours were.

Sure, there are many people with tai Yai maids, but how many people have a conversation with them that goes outside work talk? I can't believe there are many Farang who sit down and discuss the SSA and Shan politics and with their maids!

[Puwa]

Hey Paagai, I notice that you like to mention your connections to Shans and SSA. You find a way to work it into an awful lot of posts. Why?

[millwall_fan]

There are some leetle racial generalisations creeping in here.

Peaceblondie may get away with murder 'cos she's a censor, but she sure talks some crap: Chiang Mai Drunks. Uneducated peasants: I bet they wish they were sober sophisticates like you darling!

Short Story.

one of my kitchen staff went ot the fresh market yesterday as she does most days. She borrowed one of the other girls motorbikes. The police stopped her and as she had no papers for the bike, took her down the station. When the owner of the bike arrived to bail her out (leaving me short staffed i might add), the boys in brown got a bit miffed as they saw the fine money slipping away. As she had left her ID card in her handbag at the Olde Bell, they accused her of being Tai Yai - she didn't even sound Thai according to them (she's from Petchabun as it goes - not an impossible accent to decipher) and wouldn't let her out until my wife turned up with an aggressive attiude and a couple of hundred baht that i was able to return to a full staffing complement. Endemic Racism.

[realthaideal]

I wouldn't get down on our fellow posters as racist all knee-jerk here. I think some of it is just rooting for the underdog. Many of us who know ppl here from across the border who are feeling hardship, grew up with modest means, and we know they're looked down upon unfairly. Like somebody else said, it'd be interesting to acct for the superiority once you consider the intersection of class and gender. Many of the peasanty Tai Yai aren't that different from the baan-nok people up here in the North. Simple folks with simple means are usually some of the better people you could meet.

And as PB puts, it, there's an oft 'observed' racism or superiority here among the people, but this is a cross Asia in general. And it's all silly.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Come on, just about anyone who has a maid who isn't some relative of their Mrs has one who is Thai Yai.

Just about all of ours were.

Sure, there are many people with tai Yai maids, but how many people have a conversation with them that goes outside work talk? I can't believe there are many Farang who sit down and discuss the SSA and Shan politics and with their maids!

No.. I don't.. That's not the nature of a work relationship.. I might discuss this and other wider issues with those who are bar/karaoke girls though.

But yeah, "no socializing with the maid". In addition they're expected to use their own bathroom exclusively, and use their own dedicated maid plates, glasses and spoons. So we have 4-tier segregated cutlery: For special occasions, for regular use, for the maid and then finally one set to mix dog food. And never they shall mix.

Edited May 12, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Paagai]

Hey Paagai, I notice that you like to mention your connections to Shans and SSA. You find a way to work it into an awful lot of posts. Why?

I do? I thought it was only in topics like this..... To answer your question, because I care. Realthaideal's post actually sums it up perfectly

Its a topic I feel strongly about, I have a lot of Tai Yai friends, several of whom have been boy soldiers in more than one army and some are still involved with the SSA. They can tell some tear jerking stories. I also have friends involved in supporting the Tai Yai both in CM and in the Shan State and see on a daily basis how the Shan are treated here in Thailand.

Ethnically the Tai Yai are not that far removed from the Lanna people, or northern Thai. You can't really call them different races (But I'm sure some Anthropologist will explain why I'm wrong.... ). My previous comments were not aimed at denigrating Thai people (I also have many Thai friends who are wonderful people and I love Thailand), rather accentuating differences in atttitudes between the two groups and pointing out the hypocrisy of the Thais who's only real difference from the Tai Yai is which side of a line through the jungle they were born on.

[Paagai]

Short Story.

one of my kitchen staff went ot the fresh market yesterday as she does most days. She borrowed one of the other girls motorbikes. The police stopped her and as she had no papers for the bike, took her down the station. When the owner of the bike arrived to bail her out (leaving me short staffed i might add), the boys in brown got a bit miffed as they saw the fine money slipping away. As she had left her ID card in her handbag at the Olde Bell, they accused her of being Tai Yai - she didn't even sound Thai according to them (she's from Petchabun as it goes - not an impossible accent to decipher) and wouldn't let her out until my wife turned up with an aggressive attiude and a couple of hundred baht that i was able to return to a full staffing complement. Endemic Racism.

The going rate for a Tai Yai on a motorbike stopped by the BIB seems to be 2K Bt, sometimes even though they've done nothing wrong.........

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The going rate for a Tai Yai on a motorbike stopped by the BIB seems to be 2K Bt, sometimes even though they've done nothing wrong.........

Being in a city/province where they shouldn't be illegally would qualify as 'something wrong' though! We made sure all our maids were legal with the proper documentation. So that means legal employment, and they can go to the market just fine.

They just can't leave the province without obtaining permission first.

Edited May 12, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Rasseru]

You can't really call them different races

Sure you can. 'Race' is so broadly and variously used, with such a range of agendas, that wouldn't mean anything less to use it here than any of the other times and places it is used.

[cmsoulbrother]

The going rate for a Tai Yai on a motorbike stopped by the BIB seems to be 2K Bt, sometimes even though they've done nothing wrong.........

Being in a city/province where they shouldn't be illegally would qualify as 'something wrong' though! We made sure all our maids were legal with the proper documentation. So that means legal employment, and they can go to the market just fine.

They just can't leave the province without obtaining permission first.

As far as I know, all Tai Yai, even those with proper work documentation, cannot drive a motorcycle and if caught doing so are liable for a 2k baht fine.

It has always struck me as grossly unfair...but then again, nobody has ever asked my opinion on the matter either....

[WinnieTheKhwai]

As far as I know, all Tai Yai, even those with proper work documentation, cannot drive a motorcycle and if caught doing so are liable for a 2k baht fine.

Could that be related to not having a driver's license? Probably on some immigration statuses they couldn't apply for a Thai driver's license.. Also for Westerners you need to be on a particular type of visa I believe to obtain a Thai drivers license. (Probably can't do it on a 30 day visa exemption!) For tourists this is not an issue as they would have one from their home country, inlcuding ideally an international license. For most Shan people I bet that's not an option.

So, driving without a driver's license, yes I would imagine that being an issue, and be considered as 'doing something wrong'.

It has always struck me as grossly unfair.

Well.. I think this is the time where it would be good to separate out the ethnic background from the citizenship/immigration status : Thai Yai / Shan is an ethnic background. Some Shan people are Thai citizens, born in Thailand and with Thai ID cards and driver's licenses. They can do absolutely anything any other Thai can do. Some Thai Yai / Shan people are more recent arrivals from Burma, without Thai citizenship. Those people are immigrants, and as such don't enjoy many of the rights Thais (incl. Shan Thais) have. Buying land would be another one, voting rights, etc, etc.

Edited May 12, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[PeaceBlondie]

There are some leetle racial generalisations creeping in here.

Peaceblondie may get away with murder 'cos she's a censor, but she sure talks some crap: Chiang Mai Drunks. Uneducated peasants: I bet they wish they were sober sophisticates like you darling!

Hi. Welcome to ThaiVisa and Chiang Mai; "darling. .I know these men, their drunken fathers, their peasant mothers.

[millwall_fan]

Ha! Ha! I'm not sure whether you can really welcome me to Thaivisa seeing as I joined it several months before you did!!

[Texpat]

Thais are as proud and vain as any farang. They have the same racial, nationalistic, religious feelings as any other group.

Yes, I know you are above the fray.

I've listened to a group of dusty, drunk, very poor Isaan dirt farmers sit and slag Burmese for hours. Citing dozens of reasons why they are superior beings. It's really no different than listening to a tattooed Blackpool chav, struggling to stand upright, tell you how civilized Britan is.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Texpat

[Rasseru]

Humans all, eh, Texpat? Man, you've just got to hate them, when you're not laughing at them.

[PeaceBlondie]

There are some leetle racial generalisations creeping in here.

Peaceblondie may get away with murder 'cos she's a censor, but she sure talks some crap: Chiang Mai Drunks. Uneducated peasants: I bet they wish they were sober sophisticates like you darling!

After over 14,500 posts here, only newbies call me 'she,' or insult moderators.