20,000 Red Shirts Expected At Rally Today

[Koo82]

A police investigation of thepolice is always suspect and can never be held up against an outside investigation.If police believe they are innocent they should commision an independent inquiry at their expense and without them selecting the memebers of the team and hand over all the evidence. There in itself is another problem though. The police collect and hold the evidence and hence the veracity of the evidence and the chain of evidence becomes suspect.

So what do you say about people who investigated Khun Thaksin who are known that they don't like Khun Thaksin at all?

[Plus]

Red and yellow cooperating is not as delusional as it sounds but it would require a few precursors. The yellows would have to be devoid of their royalist extreme which maybe has started. They would then be a middle class group. The reds would have to be devoid of Thaksin. That could be harder. Then they would be a pro-demcracy and rural supporting group.

I think its still delusional.

PAD is looking for new role in the society, anti-Thaksin battle is largely won, the leadership will most likely split and yellows as we know them won't exist anymore. Parts of the movement can easily join with any other pro-democracy group, united against common enemy.

Reds are more difficult - I don't believe they have ANY democratic elements there, certainly no credible leaders.

There are probably some ordinary followers that have rallied for both camps already, PAD in 2006 and UDD in 2009 but such "alliances" could be good only for a photo-op and a touching story - you need united leadership, not foot soldiers.

It's been a whole month since Songkran riots and not a single red came out with apologies and offered even a glimmer of hope and sanity. All those excited claims by the likes of Nick Noltsitz, or BBC hacks, or Nation's Pravit - about the birth and growth of democratic reds were, to put it mildly, premature. These guys were so wrong they should lose licenses to report anything to the public, ever.

[Koo82]

Politicians are crooked and corrupt all over the world why should we expect anything different here.....just look at the UK news about the UK lot creaming the expenses while people are losing jobs and homes...........

I never believe Khun Thaksin corrupt.

He can make a lot of money so he never cares to eat into the budget which comes from our tax.

All about his "crime" is the conflict of interest. Why didn't they bring other cases which can be heavier to judge? All they could bring out is only the land case.

The classic example of corruption is: this area is having flood. Government officials will buy things to donate. They have budget to buy and to pay people for doing so. They will buy higher than the real price to eat the difference. The seller will write the price on bills higher than the actual price they sell. With Democrat Party right after they got into power in December last year, the rotten fish can scandal was heard in the same month. The fish they donated were rotten when cans were opened and people who ate fish were sent to hospital. If they had done the simple thing which was to buy from mass distributors like Lotus, BigC, they wouldn't have had that scandal.

Khun Thaksin does not need to do those things. He created new investment chances so everyone benefits from that including him. He did not spend big government budget to please army and coalition parties because he could win elections without their help. He only pleased the people who voted for him by giving them loans to start business, not to give free 2,000 Baht like Abhisit, by helping them to have cheap health care and so on. These things made them love him. See the photo to feel that.

It's not about getting any money to join a rally for Khun Thaksin as what the yellows believe.

When people want to be a Prime Minister coming from people, they don't use gun and tanks in a coup.

[Koo82]

It's been a whole month since Songkran riots and not a single red came out with apologies and offered even a glimmer of hope and sanity.

It's been 5 months since PAD left Suvarnabhumi... Did PAD apologize?

Why do the reds must apologize for what they did not do?

Unless people say blocking an intersection in 1 day is worse than blocking GH 3 months and airports 8 days.

Did the army apologize for shooting at the reds?

[TAWP]

They [added: chinese teargas grenades] contain RDX.

How do you know the Police used Chinese tear gas?

Because the police themselves also said so.

Please, can you stop this nonsense?

[TAWP]

Did the army apologize for shooting at the reds?

I think they apologized for every proven victim.

The total count is 0, right?

[Sandstone Art]

Before he was elected I was all excieted and supported him with the idea that such a super rich guy should feel that with all the money he's got, he won't be corrupted if he is in office.

I was dead wrong and I realised that once he was in office.

It's a pity that some people choose not to see his corrupted ways.

Guess some red shirts are so brain washed ......

[Cayenne]

Can you confirm please, this is the same Thaksin who said, "democracy is not my aim", when responding to widespread criticism that his government was rolling-back press-freedom and democracy ? Thought so.

Did he mean that his aim is to bring farmers and the poor to better education and better lives? So democracy is not his aim.

Finally! A consensus now that we agree that Thaksin is not for democracy . Therefore, for the red shirts to continue claim that Thaksin is for democracy would contradict this admission.

[justanothercybertosser]

I think its still delusional.

It's been a whole month since Songkran riots and not a single red came out with apologies and offered even a glimmer of hope and sanity.

Neither has the government apologized for the attacks by the Blue Shirts. Same problem.

If you believe that a possible future collaboration may be "delusional", then you clearly have ignored Sondhi L.'s statement in English (published in Nirmal Gosh's blog), in which he has not denied the possibility, and the much stronger statement later on Thai television, in which he clearly saw a slight possibility.

I guess now apart from BBC & Co, now Sondhi must lose his license to say anything, because it contradicts the views of the anonymous poster called "Plus".

[Cayenne]

Why do the reds must apologize for what they did not do?

Unless people say blocking an intersection in 1 day is worse than blocking GH 3 months and airports 8 days.

Don't forget to mention the LPG trucks, the deaths of two civilians, and the Pattaya incident. Oh yeah, I forgot they were fake reds and guess what, the yellows at the GH and airport were all fakes too!

[hammered]

Red and yellow cooperating is not as delusional as it sounds but it would require a few precursors. The yellows would have to be devoid of their royalist extreme which maybe has started. They would then be a middle class group. The reds would have to be devoid of Thaksin. That could be harder. Then they would be a pro-demcracy and rural supporting group.

I think its still delusional.

PAD is looking for new role in the society, anti-Thaksin battle is largely won, the leadership will most likely split and yellows as we know them won't exist anymore. Parts of the movement can easily join with any other pro-democracy group, united against common enemy.

Reds are more difficult - I don't believe they have ANY democratic elements there, certainly no credible leaders.

There are probably some ordinary followers that have rallied for both camps already, PAD in 2006 and UDD in 2009 but such "alliances" could be good only for a photo-op and a touching story - you need united leadership, not foot soldiers.

It's been a whole month since Songkran riots and not a single red came out with apologies and offered even a glimmer of hope and sanity. All those excited claims by the likes of Nick Noltsitz, or BBC hacks, or Nation's Pravit - about the birth and growth of democratic reds were, to put it mildly, premature. These guys were so wrong they should lose licenses to report anything to the public, ever.

The yellows and red will be with us for quite some time I think.

Almost unnoticed by anybody the PAD had a party in Rayong a week or so ago and got about 20K in attendance. ASTV is still avidly watched and here in Chonburi is one of the most popular channels on cable and a major cause of satellite sales. The yellows may morph change leaders a bit and set up a party but will remian at least a major pressure group for quite some time. Sondhi has noticeably positioned his group away from the military, bureacracy and elements of the government. I think yellow some time ago moved away from just being anti-Thaksin.

Red may well have some damaged leaders and there may even be some leadership changes. They may even become less pro-Thaksin. Whether people like it or not the red movment does include elements of democracy activisits and they do have sympathy in certain rural areas. It is moot whether that symapthy has decreased but even if it has they still have many millions softly behind them just as yellows have millionssoftly behind them. Red wont disppear. It may morph like yellow and change tactics and even some aims but even if Thaksin drops dead tomorrow it will continue. Sondhi actually said that some of the red and yellow aims were the same. Liek the yellows the reds will likely remian at least a pressure group for quite some time. That is of course better than having them turn to armed struggle which likely only a minority of them support anyway.

Lots could happen here. I am not saying red and yellow are going to suddenly have a cuddleathon, share ASTV and hold joint rallies but at the very least a truce could easily happen. The poor, the middle and working classes all want a bigger share of the pie and more control of the system for their groups. That creates a common aim in the short term. The question is whether divide and rule will continue to prevent this occuring.

Edited to add: Mr. Nostitz's piece on NM was quite even handed actually and he never once accepted the large massacre claims that some on NM do back. He drew praise from posters on there that definitely dont support Thaksin or the reds.

Edited May 13, 2009 by hammered

[Jingthing]

Thaksin is clearly not for democracy. Nor is he for Isaan people. People in Isaan are for him. That's different. Thaksin is for Thaksin, and I hear the weather is lovely in Managua this time of year, lah.

[Koo82]

Please, can you stop this nonsense?

I did not know where the tear gas come from so I asked you. Why is it nonsense?

[Koo82]

Did the army apologize for shooting at the reds?

I think they apologized for every proven victim.

The total count is 0, right?

More than 100 were shot by soldiers and were sent to hospitals.

[Koo82]

Before he was elected I was all excieted and supported him with the idea that such a super rich guy should feel that with all the money he's got, he won't be corrupted if he is in office.

The only case where they could find "corruption" is the conflict of interest case when his wife bought a land.

Other than that, they still cannot prove he was corrupt.

[Jingthing]

Before he was elected I was all excieted and supported him with the idea that such a super rich guy should feel that with all the money he's got, he won't be corrupted if he is in office.

The only case where they could find "corruption" is the conflict of interest case when his wife bought a land.

Other than that, they still cannot prove he was corrupt.

You are a wonderfully consistent case of a true believer. It is probably a permanent condition. You can still find Italians who will tell you Mussolini was the greatest Italian leader ever ...

Edited May 13, 2009 by Jingthing

[Koo82]

Did he mean that his aim is to bring farmers and the poor to better education and better lives? So democracy is not his aim.

Finally! A consensus now that we agree that Thaksin is not for democracy . Therefore, for the red shirts to continue claim that Thaksin is for democracy would contradict this admission.

But to achieve his aim, there must be democracy (one person one vote, majority wins). So he now fights for democracy.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

I, on the opposite end from Koo, was always a true believer that Thaksin could not be trusted. I began to get frightened when I heard of his nationalistic campaigning pre 2001 and knowing personally as well as knowing of his family here in Chiang Mai, I didn't believe for a moment that he was a good, honorable or trustworthy man. The argument that because he was rich he would not be corrupt was the most absurd I had ever heard as the only reason he got rich was because he was corrupt. I am sorry that I was vindicated, I wish I was wrong, but this man has always been dangerous, untrustworthy and I don't care how many people love him or that he did indeed help a few million people. The fact that he killed thousands of so called drug dealers without trial, the fact that he treated the south like crap because they didn't vote for him, the fact that he only awarded loyalty, shows that he was not mature enough to govern a nation. Koo, he may have been a great prime minister for you. But don't you think he should have been for everyone?

[Jingthing]

That was funny, Koo.

To achieve his aim of

DEMOCRACY IS NOT HIS AIM

he instigates a violent revolution? For democracy to make him dictator so he can not have democracy. Back to the drawing board, Lady K ...

Methinks your money is on the wrong horse if you really seek true democracy.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Jingthing

[Koo82]

Don't forget to mention the LPG trucks, the deaths of two civilians, and the Pattaya incident. Oh yeah, I forgot they were fake reds and guess what, the yellows at the GH and airport were all fakes too!

I don't forget. The proof to know real reds or fake reds is: real reds will be judged quickly, fake reds will be ignored.

Example: Saturday the reds threw shoes and eggs to Suthep's car. Suthep did not catch any eggs as he was in the car. Late afternoon, police used photos taken from the spot to come to the reds' houses asked them to report the next day. The reds did. Next day was Sunday. Police worked hard strangely . Monday case was judged. Reds were charged with "wanting to hurt people's body" with 2 years pending and 2,000 Baht fine. After considering the reds' history, they reduced half of the fine and 1 year pending.

How do you know that only 2 were dead at Nang Lerng?

How many LPG trucks were hijacked that day and where did they park? Did the LPG truck drivers report to police?

Do you have links showing bus passengers described how the buses were hijacked? As per Jatupon, the reds hijacked some buses but not all 52. The buses being burnt were more than 30.

Does he look anything like a red?

Pattaya incident? They set up people wearing blue having weapons to attack the reds, thinking the reds couldn't come close to the venue. If they hadn't done so, the Asean Summit might have not been closed. Did you forget 4 reds were injured by the blues?

At the end of this video clip, you'll hear the blues shouted "Please, more weapons".

"

[Jingthing]

Koo, what were the reds doing there attacking the summit in the first place? Do you think that is admirable? An international summit for peace and economic cooperation. Attacking Asean, you attacked Thailand. Please, not another, airport yellow excuse.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Jingthing

[h90]

Koo, what were the reds doing there attacking the summit in the first place? Do you think that is admirable? An international summit for peace and economic cooperation. Attacking Asean, you attacked Thailand. Please, not another, airport yellow excuse.

Jingthing: you can't change her mind....the only thing she listens is DTV.

All facts will be ignored and all evil things were in fact soldiers or yellows who took red shirts to discredit the red movement.

that the leaders bringing complete different stories from the same event all 10 minutes doesn't matter.

If you know 1984 from George Orwell: Koo is the proof that it is possible to change the past.

[Koo82]

Almost unnoticed by anybody the PAD had a party in Rayong a week or so ago and got about 20K in attendance.

I'm surprised I miss this thread. Did anyone post a topic?

The cartoon said:

- PAD number starts to reduce everyday.

- No worry. We have a help to make that number up to hundreds of thousand.

- So who's the help?

- Media

[Koo82]

H90,

Dtv was closed by Abhisit's people since 13th April. They said the State of Emergency was on, so they closed. After the lifted the SoE, they still don't let the reds run Dtv.

[Plus]

Why do the reds must apologize for what they did not do?

And here is the crux of the problem - reds cannot even admit they did anything wrong, let alone apologise for it.

Neither has the government apologized for the attacks by the Blue Shirts.

And even if they admit something happened - they won't apologise until someone else goes first.

>>>>

Believe what you want, but people like this cannot possibly lead the country towards democracy.

They might get some rural support on their own - it's irrelevant - Thaksin has a lot more support and there's nothing democratic about it.

If they goal is to have hordes of clueless people dressed in colors marching up and down Rajadamnoen, then reds will be with us for some time. If the goal is to have broad democratic movement - it ain't gonna happen with the present bunch.

So here is my assessement - there's not a single ray of hope that anyone in the red camp really wants to promote democracy in Thailand. Nada, Zilch. It's all crystallised idiocy. The so called activists wouldn't have stayed with reds for long if they had any dignity and self respect. Now it's like looking for a bride in a whore house, decent people just don't stay red through this mayhem.

It's easy to disprove my statement - just give an example of any promising red leader or "activist".

If you believe that a possible future collaboration may be "delusional", then you clearly have ignored Sondhi L.'s statement in English (published in Nirmal Gosh's blog), in which he has not denied the possibility,

Oh come on, half of what Sondhi says is delusional. Yes, on the surface it appears that reds and yellows share some common goals, but without sunstance, without dedication, witnout being truthful to the cause, it's unsustainable.

Here's another observation - there's not a single item on the red agenda that comes from the people themselves. It's all shaped and promoted by Thaksin and his advisors. Again, it's very easy to disprove - just show me anything that genuienly comes from people and would benefit the people and not the politicians.

[Koo82]

To achieve his aim of

DEMOCRACY IS NOT HIS AIM

he instigates a violent revolution? For democracy to make him dictator so he can not have democracy. Back to the drawing board, Lady K ...

Methinks your money is on the wrong horse if you really seek true democracy.

Dictatorship? I only know that now they close all red tv and radio and websites. During that time, Khun Thaksin did not close yellow media because it was protected.

So we must seek fake democracy where army will make a coup any time if they're not happy with the government?

All those violence did not start with the reds. The reds fell into the trap only.

[Plus]

DTV was closed for inciting violence and rioting, not for being "red". It would have been closed in any country on earth, and stay closed.

[Insight]

To achieve his aim of

DEMOCRACY IS NOT HIS AIM

he instigates a violent revolution? For democracy to make him dictator so he can not have democracy. Back to the drawing board, Lady K ...

Methinks your money is on the wrong horse if you really seek true democracy.

Dictatorship? I only know that now they close all red tv and radio and websites. During that time, Khun Thaksin did not close yellow media because it was protected.

So we must seek fake democracy where army will make a coup any time if they're not happy with the government?

All those violence did not start with the reds. The reds fell into the trap only.

Could this be viewed as an admission of guilt?

[animatic]

To achieve his aim of

DEMOCRACY IS NOT HIS AIM

he instigates a violent revolution? For democracy to make him dictator so he can not have democracy. Back to the drawing board, Lady K ...

Methinks your money is on the wrong horse if you really seek true democracy.

Dictatorship? I only know that now they close all red tv and radio and websites. During that time, Khun Thaksin did not close yellow media because it was protected.

So we must seek fake democracy where army will make a coup any time if they're not happy with the government?

All those violence did not start with the reds. The reds fell into the trap only.

Thaksin tried mightily to close down ALL dissenting media.

That was one of the main reasons opposition was so strong against him.

The Reds fell into a trap, but by acting violently THEMSELVES,

they DID THE ACTIONS, no one else.

If it was a trap, it only provided a public theater for

REDS TO SCREW UP ON THEIR OWN...

There is no chance of spinning or whining this truth today away...

[Koo82]

I, on the opposite end from Koo, was always a true believer that Thaksin could not be trusted. I began to get frightened when I heard of his nationalistic campaigning pre 2001 and knowing personally as well as knowing of his family here in Chiang Mai, I didn't believe for a moment that he was a good, honorable or trustworthy man. The argument that because he was rich he would not be corrupt was the most absurd I had ever heard as the only reason he got rich was because he was corrupt. I am sorry that I was vindicated, I wish I was wrong, but this man has always been dangerous, untrustworthy and I don't care how many people love him or that he did indeed help a few million people. The fact that he killed thousands of so called drug dealers without trial, the fact that he treated the south like crap because they didn't vote for him, the fact that he only awarded loyalty, shows that he was not mature enough to govern a nation.

Those are all they talk for years but nothing was proved that he was corrupt. Only the land case they tried so hard so he had a conflict of interest.

Other than that nothing was wrong with him.

I hope you did not mean all other people are clean.