I Think It Takes Balls To Leave The Homecountry

[wamberal]

A simple question. How many expatriates reach the top of their profession, or end up in the top levels of commerce or business, in countries like Thailand? Few, if any.

Why not? Partly because of language and cultural barriers - but partly because the higher quality professionals and business-people stay in their home country, or go to other first world countries.

[Gaccha]

The 'something-must-be-done' brigade; the sergeant-majors and young professional ladies who read the Daily Mail.

The thing is in England nothing gets done these days, just people coming on webforums complaining, and whats wrong with wanting things to be better?

You ask a question that I felt I had thoroughly answered. But someone did ask me in another post to simplify my points, so this seems a good opportunity.

Ideally, making things better is, of course, a good thing. But some time ago, the advanced democracies solved the easy stuff (provide healthcare to all, give everyone an education, open the labour market to all etc.). What we are left with now is very very complicated stuff. We really don't have the answers. But your posting says it all-- you must feel we do as a precondition to making things better (this latter phrase may well be a registered trademark of Daily Mail readers so I use it with caution).

The government is forced to respond to this (distorted) perception of the World; that in the UK things are regarded as constantly getting worse, as going down the drain. Daily Mail readers are fed this as it sells media. The Daily Mail depends on envy (house prices rising) and fear (immigrants).

The government's responses are crude (they simply don't know what the result will be) but inevitably ever more intrusive as a vicious circle of demands (by Daily Mail readers) are followed by 'failure' as the Daily Mail feeds them stories of impending collapse (a 'cesspit').

My perception is the demands of Daily Mail readers (I am , of course, using them as shorthand to describe a certain type of person with a certain type of thinking) unintentionally have a far greater detrimental effect than any of the perceived problems of the UK.

Let me give another example (in addition to my example of the new register in my last post). Daily Mail readers were up in arms over the killing of two girls by Ian [?]. The stranger danger. They demanded that this must not happen again. They saw incompetence at every corner. The consequence of these shrill complaints were manifold but include:

-a change in the relation of strangers with any children. It is now regarded in the UK as highy suspect if a man talks to any children he does not know. If a child iin a park falls over and hurts herself then most men would now think twice about approaching her to help her for fears of what others would think-- the stares and the real risk of being reported to the authorities.

-a new framework of criminal records checks. This not only includes past criminal convictions, but any allegations. A teacher recently lost his job because a check found that a student had made an unproven allegation against him. This teacher is unlikely to ever find work again as a teacher. Since in the UK, through the consequences of the Daily Mail reader the cry of 'better safe than sorry' permeates. The authorities know they will be in deep trouble from the mass readership newspapers if they make an error ("it must not happen again") but there will be no consequence if they simply ruin one person's life.

What I am trying to do is build up a picture of a society dislocated and destroyed by the shrill, inattentive demands of the Daily Mail man and woman.

The reality is this:

-child killings by strangers amounts to around 5- 6 a year in the UK.

- around 60 children are killed a week on UK road traffic accidents.

There is no stranger danger. Nothing should be done. But the government cannot say this for the electoral consequences. Daily Mail readers have ruined society by damaging the very trust it needs to work.

[Gaccha]

I think people who disregard others as fools if theyre one of the many millions who read the Daily Mail /The Sun as jumped up <deleted>, would these people be as superior as yourself if they read the FT? or didnt read the news at all? Or read whatever socialist sh7te you form your opinions from.

Groan. I don't recall calling them fools. I think their pereptual framework of the World is wrong. They are not well read. The sources for their thinking are inadequate and inppropriate.

It is interesting you think I'm socialist. I have, as you may now understand, a rather nuanced understanding of the World. I am certainly a libertarian, but to say more would be a parody of my position.

You must have been to a Uni mill to churn out such rubbish 2:1 in Business Studies im guessing.

No one thinks the govt have all the answers, just 50% of our money to come up with better solutions.

PS I read every newspaper theyre all free online before you try to come across as superior by calling me a Mail reader, but are Guardian readers ok in your eyes?

I'm not sure I can be bothered responding to personal attacks. Whatever I say, you will have a well-honed glib response ready for me.

To understand the World, you need to go beyond reading newspapers. You need deep reading. You must not feel that when someone knows more than you they are being patronising. Take it on the chin and try to better yourself. Anti-intellectualism is a curiously British characteristic. For the time being, you are being played by a complex nexus of government and media. I wish you well.

[Pierrot]

Sorry, I don't think it's about courage, most probably it's genetic, something in the blood.

Some people can't understand why people travel, others can't understand how someone can spend his entire life where he was born.

[Tyke]

Within reason almost anyone could buy a plane ticket, jump on a plane and settle in a different Country. Some no doubt don't see such a major life decision as such a big deal, especially the well travelled/frequent traveller. I'm sure a lot of Expats have made happy and successful lives oversea's, some may have "failed" and be on the rocks in the adopted homeland, other's may have returned home.

Whatever the reason/outcome of the move I think it takes a lot of courage to leave the norm's and "comforts" of home and try a new way of life in another Country.

I'm not an Expat (yet), I live in the UK, but I often look around me and wonder how many of my fellow Countryman would have the courage to make such a move.

I also have respect for the immigrants in the UK who have left their Homeland and try a new way of life here

It was so much more difficult to live in the UK (London esp.) than here in Bangkok. It was like pain relief to get out of that anally retentive place. No, it doesn't take balls to get away, just the need and the desire for freedom.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Tyke

[tuky]

I'm not an Expat (yet), I live in the UK, but I often look around me and wonder how many of my fellow Countryman would have the courage to make such a move.

I also have respect for the immigrants in the UK who have left their Homeland and try a new way of life here

It's refreshing to read someone who understands both sides of this issue.

Could not agree more GH.

To the OP, if any means possible. Try to find employment that allows you to take say one year contract overseas. So much easier and nicer to go when you arrive with a job. Possibly with proper expat package including accommodation and transport etc...

I agree with MrJo.

13 years ago at the age of 21 I took my first job in Singapore.

Since then I have worked in Azerbaijan, Russia, Russia (Sakhalin), Sweden, Korea and Indonesia but have visited many more countries.

I have played Aussie rules footy in Singapore and Vietnam (televised in Aust.), been married and had kids in Thailand.

Seen mud volcanoes, fire temples, old temples (Thai, Cambo, Korea, Indo, Japan) and lived in an old castle (Bjertorp Slot).

I have driven in different countries on both sides of the road (not always the correct side) in both cars, Motorbikes, rickshaw (HCM, and I crashed it) and even a Tuk Tuk.

I lived in a bamboo hut on a bamboo bed in a mountain village in the Phils.

I have been in the middle of riots (Azerbaijan), violent worker deomonstrations (Korea) a coup and been held hostage by Russian Border Police looking for a payout.

I have seen cave paintings painted in the BC Era and played rock instruments made in the same era (Cobustan).

Crawled through tunnels built to defend against the French and later the Americans in Vietnam and fired AK47s, M16s and assorted weaponry left over after the American War.

the list goes on.

Yet, when I call my mates back in Aust. (very rarely now) they tell me they won the pool comp at the same local pub we all drank at as teenagers.

It doesn't take balls so much, it takes a broad mind, an eagerness to explore, luck and a hel_l of a lot of patience at times.

But, if given the chance to roam, the world is a big place and just awesome. So don't hold back. Just do it.

[Gaccha]

The 'something-must-be-done' brigade; the sergeant-majors and young professional ladies who read the Daily Mail.

The thing is in England nothing gets done these days, just people coming on webforums complaining, and whats wrong with wanting things to be better?

I think people who disregard others as fools if theyre one of the many millions who read the Daily Mail /The Sun as jumped up <deleted>, would these people be as superior as yourself if they read the FT? or didnt read the news at all? Or read whatever socialist sh7te you form your opinions from.

You must have been to a Uni mill to churn out such rubbish 2:1 in Business Studies im guessing.

No one thinks the govt have all the answers, just 50% of our money to come up with better solutions.

PS I read every newspaper theyre all free online before you try to come across as superior by calling me a Mail reader, but are Guardian readers ok in your eyes?

It was a funny posting because its mostly Guardian(liberal/yellow bellies/PC brigade/civil servant") readers who have snatched the "Great" out of Great Britain/England and turned the country into such a cess pit.

Majority of Daily Mail readers are right wing and more and would not have all the Polish/dole wasters/single mothers benefit scroungers/police killers escaping the Island dressed in a burkha as the police are to scared to stop him for fear of upsetting the PC brigade....etc

Oh dear.

Of course, Daily Mail readers are right-wing. That is presciely my (counter-intuitive) point. Their complaints that you have so beautifully provided yet another rich source of (e.g. "mostly Guardian(liberal/yellow bellies/PC brigade/civil servant) readers who have snatched the "Great" out of Great Britain"), are the ironic cause of the ruination of the UK.

The Great my friend would be put back onto Britain if the country was run by Daily Mail readers!

Especially if it was done by online voting

Spare me.

[Gaccha]

No more immigrants and send them home Yes or No???

The irony of your position is probably lost on you. If you are living in Thailand, you are an immigrant. Do you feel you are ruining Thailand with your presence?

Personally I know who I would rather have running the country but unfortunately its the other paper readers who run it!

That's precisely my point. Daily Mail readers feel attacked from all sides. They feel a sense of grievance that all others (gays, women, immigrants, Poles, criminals) are being privileged above them. It is their response to this perception generated by fear articles in the Daily Mail that is causing the ills of the UK.

Please think. In regard to the police not looking under the burqha, you blame the PC brigade. At the extreme, they are a threat to the UK way of life and I have had very serious arguments with PC friends of the USA (where it has set in like dry rot across University campuses) but I fear you are blaming the wrong people.

Let me turn to your example. If the police make a mistake, it is the Daily Mail reader who demands this must not happen again. The police must then ensure they make no mistakes. These means all discretion must be removed and instead a strict procedure put in place. This procedure will err on the safe side (for no senior officer wants to lose his job from a politician forcing him to resign becuase of Daily Mail demands). When a complaint comes in, the police will carefully investigate and compare the officer's actions with best practice. So long as he follows best pratice, no matter how absurd the results, the Daily Mail and its ilk can make no further complaints. So even when it is blindingly obvious what must be done, the police officer must be careful not to do it. He does not want to lose his job.

You are being played.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Gaccha

[girlx]

great post tuky.

i agree, it takes a curiousity about the world outside of your comfort zone to pick up and move to another land. it helps if you have no ties too.

i also think it is brave to go back home when it is no longer good for you. you can always make new friends, you don't have to hang with the "lawnmower people", as my friend and i call them (people who have nothing more interesting in their lives other than their new lawnmowers)!

[stiggy]

I read both the daily mail and the Guardian............

Whilst dipping my 7-11 bread in organic eggs covered in HP brown sauce.

Does that make me Bi polar ?

Back to subject ;It doesn't take balls just an acceptance that if your new life abroad fails you are willing to start again elsewhere.

You also need to understand that the same old sh**te will happen where ever you are bills to pay good days and bad days,those that make the move believing the fantasy land that was there extended holiday here will last forever are generally disappointed.

So to the OP make your move it wont kill you ! From my experience reinvention and change is the best part of life if you allow it.

[sanook2me]

In regard to the police not looking under the burqha

I think you find you can spell burkha in various ways as it's a transliteration from Arabic and no spelling of it in English is the correct form

burqa, burkha, burka or burqua.

I'm fully aware of my position in Thailand and there is no irony in it as i bring in pounds and dollars to the Thai economy so far from ruining Thailand I would say I am of some benefit much the same as Western tourists spending money here.

Would you not agree?

[Gaccha]

In regard to the police not looking under the burqha

I'm fully aware of my position in Thailand and there is no irony in it as i bring in pounds and dollars to the Thai economy so far from ruining Thailand I would say I am of some benefit much the same as Western tourists spending money here.

Would you not agree?

So you determine your/ their legitimacy by the economic contribution. Interesting. That is how Thailand sees it. Thailand (having spoken to the former Deputy Ministry of the Interior on this very issue I really can say this) sees Western 'guests' as a nuisance, that is, of course, not how Westerners see themselves. The Westerner perceives his presence as a great cosmopolitanization of a society that is backward, they see themselves as pioneers of the Western civilising force. The locals just need to understand. The Westerner provides a refreshing outlet of new ideas, innovative thinking, exciting challenges, a force for good.

Thailand see you as an existential threat. Your differing ideas undermine the three famous pillars of the Thai state. It has done a ruthless calculation of your daily expenditure and has lowered the entry requirements to Thailand knowing you will provide money to the local economy. Many Westerneres on this forum view the visa restrictions as severe, but actually they are very liberal. Japan would not let most of the forum members in for more than the allotted two weeks holiday had they tried to go there.

So you, almost tragically, use the same guidelines as the Thai state in your tired immigrant views. Why on earth did you come to a country full of foreigners (from your eyes) if you don't like immigrants. But I digress.

Let's look at UK immigrants. What harm do they do you? Are they taking your jobs, ruining your area? Certainly not the Poles-- they are doing the jobs you don't want to do. What about the Hong Kongians-- nope, they are mini-capitalists with their mini-markets. What about Somalians-- yep, they have very high levels of economic inactivity. Would you send them home? Of course, this is your stumbling block. They are in the UK because someone was trying to kill them in the failed state they call home. Having no training in capitalism they haven't a clue how to work. They are illiterate, have no English and no understanding beyond the tribe.

You casting around for a punch bag is a necessary part of life but you are punching the wrong targets. They are virtually irrelevant in the quality of your life. You need to really try to hunt down what it is you wish for, and what is stopping you. Are you sure you do not crave a strong community, with low crime, good job prospects, and high levels of holidays? If this is what you really want, then my conceptual framework might better serve you. As it is, your apparent positioning is making things worse (Please see my two examples in my previous posts).

[MiG16]

I was just bored

[Neeranam]

It takes money (income or savings) Balls are a secondary requirement.......

Rubbish - some just have/had the price of a one-way ticket.

[Neeranam]

They are in the UK because someone was trying to kill them in the failed state they call home

So why the UK? Surely they want to improve their life financially or they'd have gone to Cambodia or Ethiopia..

[MJo]

Good one Tuky.

Very similar than my own experience. I left my country 8 years ago at the age of 26. Since been living and working in 7 countries and traveled many more.

It indeed takes hard work and bit of luck to find the right employment that allows you to leave. Then it's all broad mind and patience as you said. Only downsize is that you wont get to see your family and relatives back home that much but for me i find it enough to visit them once every 12 to 18 months.

[TerryTibbs]

Being 'street wise' or 'switched on' and not someone who needs carrying goes a long long way here. And if that's not in your nature then you either have to learn very fast or be prepared to be picked up, chewed up and spat on the pavement. No matter how clued up you are you've got to be on the ball, all the time, and never let your guard down.

[farseer]

I found a hard dick of much more importance, it got me out of a lot of financial problems, years ago servicing the women of the various countries that I visited. Balls can get you very unwanted side effects.

So, never look back, just look forward to the next ?

[onnut]

I agree with MrJo.

13 years ago at the age of 21 I took my first job in Singapore.

Since then I have worked in Azerbaijan, Russia, Russia (Sakhalin), Sweden, Korea and Indonesia but have visited many more countries.

I have played Aussie rules footy in Singapore and Vietnam (televised in Aust.), been married and had kids in Thailand.

Seen mud volcanoes, fire temples, old temples (Thai, Cambo, Korea, Indo, Japan) and lived in an old castle (Bjertorp Slot).

I have driven in different countries on both sides of the road (not always the correct side) in both cars, Motorbikes, rickshaw (HCM, and I crashed it) and even a Tuk Tuk.

I lived in a bamboo hut on a bamboo bed in a mountain village in the Phils.

I have been in the middle of riots (Azerbaijan), violent worker deomonstrations (Korea) a coup and been held hostage by Russian Border Police looking for a payout.

I have seen cave paintings painted in the BC Era and played rock instruments made in the same era (Cobustan).

Crawled through tunnels built to defend against the French and later the Americans in Vietnam and fired AK47s, M16s and assorted weaponry left over after the American War.

the list goes on.

Yet, when I call my mates back in Aust. (very rarely now) they tell me they won the pool comp at the same local pub we all drank at as teenagers.

It doesn't take balls so much, it takes a broad mind, an eagerness to explore, luck and a hel_l of a lot of patience at times.

But, if given the chance to roam, the world is a big place and just awesome. So don't hold back. Just do it.

yeah, good post. I remember going home and visiting some friends 5 years after having left and I could not believe that they were all doing the same thing, there was not much to talk about really. I have made some great friends on my travels though.

[T_Dog]

Onnut, you did it a lot earlier than most of us. Reading the post about winning the pool competition reminds me of this quote....

“The child says ‘When I’m a big boy’. But what is that? The big boy says ‘When I grow up’, and then grown up, he says ‘When I get married.’ But to me married, what is that after all? The thought changes to ‘When I’m able to retire.’ And then, when retirement comes, he looks over the landscape traversed, a cool wind sweeps over it. Somehow he has missed it all, and it is gone. Life we learn too late is in the living, in the tissue of every day and hour. –Stephan Leacock.

To live life is to increase happiness! I sure don't have any regrets and that cool wind is way behind me.

[ignis]

Rubbish - some just have/had the price of a one-way ticket.

I left my hone country at 22 years of age and returned for the total of 7 years before leaving again, I have no regrets and if I had my life again would do the same all over again.

Some places were rough and difficult to find work or a place to live/stay, other places I found work the same day, as for people complaining about the laws and rules in Thailand, other places are much more difficult

Edit: at 18 I lived in Canada for 9 months but don't count this as stayed with family over there.......... now aged 59, all the other Countries I had never been to before I went there to live and find work

Edited May 11, 2009 by ignis

[Texpat]

I left home at the age of six and took a job mining diamonds in the Congo. Shortly before puberty I moved to Siberia and ran a herd of caribou (750 head, 3,000 legs) along the northern shores of Lake Baikal, that was a great job and I thought I would be there forever -- until NASA called. By the age of 15 years of age (really now, could it really be anything but years? Can't I just say, By 15 ...) I was driving F-1 racecars and sailing round-the-world yachts -- fending off the odd Somali pirate.

Yeah, it's a fairly sedate lifestyle but I wouldn't change it for the world.

I'm so cool that I've foresaken the notion of nationality and see myself as a citizen of the world -- isn't that deep? I figure that if aliens ever swoop down to subjugate the planet, I'm the one they'll seek for advice and consultation. I'll instruct them to vaporize anyone over the age of 18 (entirely unnecessary that age of phrase) who has not left their hometown. Simply unfathomable.

*Edit* One of the caribou calves had five legs, so 3,001 legs.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Texpat

[bonobo]

I agree with MrJo.

13 years ago at the age of 21 I took my first job in Singapore.

Since then I have worked in Azerbaijan, Russia, Russia (Sakhalin), Sweden, Korea and Indonesia but have visited many more countries.

I have played Aussie rules footy in Singapore and Vietnam (televised in Aust.), been married and had kids in Thailand.

Seen mud volcanoes, fire temples, old temples (Thai, Cambo, Korea, Indo, Japan) and lived in an old castle (Bjertorp Slot).

I have driven in different countries on both sides of the road (not always the correct side) in both cars, Motorbikes, rickshaw (HCM, and I crashed it) and even a Tuk Tuk.

I lived in a bamboo hut on a bamboo bed in a mountain village in the Phils.

I have been in the middle of riots (Azerbaijan), violent worker deomonstrations (Korea) a coup and been held hostage by Russian Border Police looking for a payout.

I have seen cave paintings painted in the BC Era and played rock instruments made in the same era (Cobustan).

Crawled through tunnels built to defend against the French and later the Americans in Vietnam and fired AK47s, M16s and assorted weaponry left over after the American War.

the list goes on.

Yet, when I call my mates back in Aust. (very rarely now) they tell me they won the pool comp at the same local pub we all drank at as teenagers.

It doesn't take balls so much, it takes a broad mind, an eagerness to explore, luck and a hel_l of a lot of patience at times.

But, if given the chance to roam, the world is a big place and just awesome. So don't hold back. Just do it.

Tuky,

While we haven't done the exact same things, we have experienced the spirit of the same things.  When I go back to the US for a reunion, people are amazed and frankly envious of my life experiences.  And I would not trade those experiences for anything.  I think my life so far has been pretty amazing.

However, and this is a big however, I have never had the typical family.  I have never had a "normal" job with a family to which I could come home.  I have never had children.  So when my classmates gather round me to listen to me tell about living with the Hmong, parachuting into the ocean and swimming down to a submarine, or fighting off robbers in Morrocco, they listen with rapt attention.  Yet when they take out the photos of their children graduating from college, well, I begin to wonder if it wasn't me who has missed out on what is important in life.

[sanook2me]

So you determine your/ their legitimacy by the economic contribution. Interesting. That is how Thailand sees it. Thailand (having spoken to the former Deputy Ministry of the Interior on this very issue I really can say this) sees Western 'guests' as a nuisance, that is, of course, not how Westerners see themselves. The Westerner perceives his presence as a great cosmopolitanization of a society that is backward, they see themselves as pioneers of the Western civilising force. The locals just need to understand. The Westerner provides a refreshing outlet of new ideas, innovative thinking, exciting challenges, a force for good.

Nice try dude to give credit to your generalisations and opinion from the Deputy Minister but this is still your own opinion. You have given no evidence or support to your own ideas other than (maybe) speaking to a Minister.

I'm guessing this conversation with the Minister is not on record anywhere so your facts about what Thailand thinks are truly made up from your own ideas and opinions.

Hopefully you can prove me wrong and show us some evidence about how Thailand sees Westerners.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/mor...508?view=Binary

Some true facts and figures about how citizens of the UK feel about crime and immigration.

[Gaccha]

Nice try dude to give credit to your generalisations and opinion from the Deputy Minister but this is still your own opinion. You have given no evidence or support to your own ideas other than (maybe) speaking to a Minister.

I'm guessing this conversation with the Minister is not on record anywhere so your facts about what Thailand thinks are truly made up from your own ideas and opinions.

Hopefully you can prove me wrong and show us some evidence about how Thailand sees Westerners.

Of course they are made up from my own opinion and ideas, from where else would they come. What facts do you seek? I fear you have fallen for Daily Mail- style privileging of surveys and polls; if it has numbers and equations it must be 'true'. I, for one, would not be convinced if an opinion poll of Thais was brought out to show their love of farang.

My own ideas, as you put it, are a vision of the farang as a nuisance/trouble/a concern to the Thai state, at odds with the farangs' image of themselves as a force for good. I don't know what would you convince you, but here are some quotes to get you going:

"In Thailand today, the farang are still regarded as a race (unspecified nationalities) possessed of an ideology inferior to the abundantly rich local culture. The farang who come to reside in Thailand are described as begging for the boundless benevolence of the King , or rom phtohi somphan, to live a pleasant and enchanted life. For a Farang to be accepted in Thai society, he or she must totally abandon their innate attitudes or become excessively enamoured with anything Thai (culture, art or way of life). Todd Lavell... is an American writer who provides an example of how a farang can be so Thai-like. His articles ... often underscore what is deemed to be the true value of Thainess, which is opposite to and more superior than that of farangness."

--Pavin Chachavalpongpun

Thai Professor, visiting Professor of SOAS, London University

Expert on Thai nationalism and Thai identity

And so, following a painful series of logical steps:

"Thai identity is elusive because of a lack of cultural coherence or uniqueness, so it is easier for its promoters to imagine what is not Thai"

"The adherence to Khawnpenthai [Thainess]... is a part of the exercise of Thai nationalism through which power holders portray themselves as legitimate players formulating legitimate policy"

"[The power holders] high degree of power helps create the official version of Thainess that masks political unattractiveness as well as elites' private accummulation"

"Thais comply with this variable nationhood and perceive it as though it is part of their chit winyan, or spirit... This explains why they never look beyond the boundaries of Thai nationhood, and why it always remains predominant, ultimate and supremacist."

"according to this... self-image, Thais are not guilty of anything and blame is always placed upon foreigners"

"The farang... have continously represented a real enough threat to the power interests of the Thai leaders"

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[sanook2me]

Nice try dude to give credit to your generalisations and opinion from the Deputy Minister but this is still your own opinion. You have given no evidence or support to your own ideas other than (maybe) speaking to a Minister.

I'm guessing this conversation with the Minister is not on record anywhere so your facts about what Thailand thinks are truly made up from your own ideas and opinions.

Hopefully you can prove me wrong and show us some evidence about how Thailand sees Westerners.

Of course they are made up from my own opinion and ideas, from where else would they come. What facts do you seek? I fear you have fallen for Daily Mail- style privileging of surveys and polls; if it has numbers and equations it must be 'true'. I, for one, would not be convinced if an opinion poll of Thais was brought out to show their love of farang.

My own ideas, as you put it, are a vision of the farang as a nuisance/trouble/a concern to the Thai state, at odds with the farangs' image of themselves as a force for good. I don't know what would you convince you, but here are some quotes to get you going:

"In Thailand today, the farang are still regarded as a race (unspecified nationalities) possessed of an ideology inferior to the abundantly rich local culture. The farang who come to reside in Thailand are described as begging for the boundless benevolence of the King , or rom phtohi somphan, to live a pleasant and enchanted life. For a Farang to be accepted in Thai society, he or she must totally abandon their innate attitudes or become excessively enamoured with anything Thai (culture, art or way of life). Todd Lavell... is an American writer who provides an example of how a farang can be so Thai-like. His articles ... often underscore what is deemed to be the true value of Thainess, which is opposite to and more superior than that of farangness."

--Pavin Chachavalpongpun

Thai Professor, visiting Professor of SOAS, London University

Expert on Thai nationalism and Thai identity

And so, following a painful series of logical steps:

"Thai identity is elusive because of a lack of cultural coherence or uniqueness, so it is easier for its promoters to imagine what is not Thai"

"The adherence to Khawnpenthai [Thainess]... is a part of the exercise of Thai nationalism through which power holders portray themselves as legitimate players formulating legitimate policy"

"[The power holders] high degree of power helps create the official version of Thainess that masks political unattractiveness as well as elites' private accummulation"

"Thais comply with this variable nationhood and perceive it as though it is part of their chit winyan, or spirit... This explains why they never look beyond the boundaries of Thai nationhood, and why it always remains predominant, ultimate and supremacist."

"according to this... self-image, Thais are not guilty of anything and blame is always placed upon foreigners"

"The farang... have continously represented a real enough threat to the power interests of the Thai leaders"

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Thats a little better at least you are showing some evidence towards your thinking.

Basic facts from me - I wasn't happy with immigration/crime/under acheiving education system/to big a welfare system etc....

Now this is my own opinion and based upon reading newspapers/on line journals/conversation with people and other sources of information.

The truth of the matter is that most people have similar concerns which is supported by the Home Office poll which i put a link too.

You can rubbish a newspaper poll yes but surely the Home Office poll adds weight to my arguement that these are things people are worried about and could be reasons at to why people want to leave the UK and head East.

Myself because i'd rather be poor here than poor in the UK as I have a better lifestyle here.

Where are your ideas coming from about farangs being a force for good, pioneers for Western civilisation?

Are you doing a history or sociology course based around history of migrant movement!

I'm trying to be serious but cannot help laughing when reading/saying farangs see themselves as pioneers for western civilisations forces

Have you read why the other people came to Thailand ! go on have a read and then tell me if these people saw/see themselves as pioneers for Western civilising forces!

Have you checked the calendar lately - click on the time in the bottom right hand corner of your pc screen.

I came because i don't have to wheel the correct coloured wheelie bin out on a certain day of every other week! i can just toss the free plastic bag from Tesco in the bin on the way out of my home and someone else takes care of it. Much like in the UK along long time ago they were called binmen!

oh so many reasons

[yaketyak]

I also have respect for the immigrants in the UK who have left their Homeland and try a new way of life here

There's been a few programs on TV lately here in England glorifying the new Border Agency. It's the first time anyone has been allowed to film these normally secretive operations. Cynical as this may sound I am convinced they are only showing this to placate the 'British jobs for British people' contingent. What you have is a load of people being thrown out of the country, these people may not have qualifications and be highly skilled but they do have motivation and a passion to succeed, something which is clearly lacking in a good proportion of the population.

Ironically if these illegal immigrants came over here and took to a life of crime instead of working for a living they would almost never be caught as they tend to get caught working in publicly accessible places like restaurants, building sites, etc. The 'authorities' go for the and easy targets.

I don't think i have missed any episodes of this Border Agency programme , and what struck me after a while is that they certainly show the successess , where people with false documents try to get in or hide in lorries. What they don't balance that up with is showing how people who ARE entitled to come here having obtained a genuine visa , are also singled out and the trouble they are put to , often for hours , being allowed to go on their way without much of an apology.

Also agree with Gacca's post in the main , Britain has become a police state .. and all for political reasons , not because it needed to. Hopefully in a very few years i will be following the many expats to live in LOS .. where you are largely left alone by the state.

[pattaya_girl]

i have balls, do you?

I don't have any, but I have a nice pair of Udders

[T_Dog]

Reading these posts from the UK, it seems to take balls to stay there as well! Bottom line is you can be happy anywhere, and no matter where you live, there are advantages and disadvantages.

[drand10]

American...Laid Off...for first time in 18 yrs of work...

Time to consider moving to Thailand..and taking a 6 month to 12 month vacation...life journey.

I just think I could never get such an opportunity again in life. I have some money in the bank...I know I'd spend less money vs. living in the USA...

and I honestly see no chance of finding a job in the USA for 6 months. Construction business here is just "Dead" these days.

I figure 60K to 80K baht / month..maybe learn to live a bit frugal..that's OK.

No hard feelings on the situation..Life is Life..shit happens....Could be a life journey.

My goal is to fly to India, and then rent nice dirt bike..and then drive up into Nepal, into China, down into Laos, and then into Thailand.

Or...my real dream...is to drive the Burma trail from India through northern Burma...then into China, Laos and Thailand.

Just not sure of the safety of going into Burma. Wife doesnt like the idea..(She's burmese..and knows the wrath of the miltary) but..we'll see.