Asean Summit Is Delayed Again To October

[Plus]

There's no reconciliation on the horizon.

The only way forward is to let red menace die its own death, and the leaders should be jailed, if you really want peace and quiet. If they are let free, there's always a chance they'd disrupt the meetings even without public wide support, it's not illegal, per se, they'd do it just for kicks, to annoy Democrats.

There's also a chance that Thaksin withdraws all funding and support and Jatuporn and Co will start charting a new course of their own and it turns out to be less disrupting. I think there's a good chance that without funds they'll cease their political activities altogether.

[geriatrickid]

The resdshirts didn't scare anyone. C'mon, hasn't anyone seen the madness that goes on at G8 or G20 meetings? The military is deployed and the locations are virtual lockdowns with a massive police presence.The redshirts are a non issue.

People forget that the Asian - APEC summits have seen far more violence and rampaging than pattaya. The classic one;

Nov. 25, 1997: UBC students carry protest signs, angry that the issue of human rights isn't on the APEC agenda. The RCMP try to clear the area but chaos erupts. Protesters tear down a fence and pepper spray is shot into the crowds. Dogs are used, dozens arrested. Later, an unapologetic Prime Minister Chrétien brushes away the pepper spray incident, saying "For me, pepper, I put it on my plate."

The more likely explanation for the "postponement" is that several countries resisted the invite. Something called the swine flu and a curtailment of non essential government travel for economic reasons.

The Chinese are about to launch a major legal offensive for their ocean claims that will bring China into direct conflict with many ASEA members. China wasn't going anywhere.

[jayboy]

There's no reconciliation on the horizon.

The only way forward is to let red menace die its own death, and the leaders should be jailed, if you really want peace and quiet. If they are let free, there's always a chance they'd disrupt the meetings even without public wide support, it's not illegal, per se, they'd do it just for kicks, to annoy Democrats.

There's also a chance that Thaksin withdraws all funding and support and Jatuporn and Co will start charting a new course of their own and it turns out to be less disrupting. I think there's a good chance that without funds they'll cease their political activities altogether.

And, leaving aside my sarcasm of an earlier post, the kind of zero sum game mindset illustrated above - if shared by the Thai political class (and I'm by no means sure that it is) demonstrates that the country could be on the road to even further chaos.I think most people agree that the forces pitched against each other don't have the overwhelming strength that will ultimately win the day.I'm putting this perhaps too simply but all sides need to recognise that the yellow and red represent huge bodies of national opinion, and cannot just be dismissed or expected to fade away.That's why compromise and reconciliation is needed and why our much maligned PM is looking to calm the country down, including amending the junta's rigged constitution.

Incidentally peace and quiet are not a sine qua non for a healthy democracy.North Korea has "peace and quiet."

Of course there will always be those who rant incoherently and angrily on about the red menace, or for that matter the yellow menace.But anyone who has a nodding acquaintance with history will know that what's happening now in Thailand is not that unusual.It can be "sorted" but it will involve a shift in the balance of power and resources (though not nearly as much as some of the red leadership would like).That's another lesson of history particularly when there are Whiggish figures like Abhisit around.

[rogercw]

I have little or no idea which political faction is best for Thailand. I do know that the country needs some stable form of government. In every recent election Thaksin or parties backed by him have received the largest number of votes. He was removed by the Army. When the yellow shirts took over the airport and the pro-Thaksin government tried to get the Army to remove them the Army would not do it, saying that was a police matter. In a rapid move by the courts that usually drag things out for years enough pro-Thaksin MP's were removed to bring Abhisit (yellow-shirts) to power. Then when pro-Thaksin demonstrations recently took over government house and disrupted traffic the Army decided that crowd control was an Army function after all. Good-by red-shirts.

So Thailand is left with a situation where there is a large part of the population supporting an Army-coup removed former PM who was probably more corrupt than the average Thai politician. The current "Democrat" led coalition was installed by the quiet support of the Army and is kept there by Army support. While the political stand-off goes on month after month the Thai economy and Thai standing in SE Asia slowly deteriorate.

Problems holding ASEAN meetings are a result of a political crisis that has dragged on for the entire three years I have been in Thailand and which has no final solution in sight. What happens if an election is held later this year or early next year and Thaksin's party, under whatever name, gets the largest number of votes again?

[hardy1943]

For whatever reason it was delayed

...the "reds" will declare the delay as their victory!

Well it is their victory. Actually I don't know what the won (maybe they won the golden banana for bringing Thailand one more step closer to be a banana republic), but they did it.

They are already a fourth rate Banana Republic. HOW LOW CAN YOU GO?

[Burr]

George,

I remember you asking us to be "Very" careful what we said a few years ago.

Are things still that bad?

[Plus]

all sides need to recognise that the yellow and red represent huge bodies of national opinion, and cannot just be dismissed or expected to fade away.

Oh they will, given certain conditions, they will, both of them.

Yellows have already melted away, there's only one issue that might bring them back - amnesty for Thaksin. If that condition is met, you won't see yellows anymore, except for reunion parties.

And reds are in the process of dissolving, too. Songkran riots blew the wind out of their sails, now it's only die hard nuts and rabid leaders left.

If Abhisit manages to confine red leaders to fighting in parliament, you won't see red rallies on the streets.

Even red supporters have realised that they've been drafted into politicians, not people's war. When will our "progressive" analysts see it, too?

There's no class struggle here, no farmers vs urbanites, no poor against middle classes, no "rift" that pitches people against each other. All those reasons were made up by leftist academics ala Giles to justify drawing their salaries.

There's nothing more to this battle than Thaksin mobilising his supporters to save his own ass, despite his democracy propaganda . It hasn't grown into anything bigger.

>>>

So, if red leaders are prohibited from organising any more rallies, peace will return very very soon. But, as with disrupting Asean, it's their right, they are allowed to stir up shit all they want for now. They will eventually totally discredit themselves and become harmless, but it will take just a but longer.

[JoeThePoster]

It is more likely that the majority of those countries ministers had more pressing engagements at the current time.

Absoultely right!

But for unknown reasons skid-Mark and his cronies thought that they were all holding their breath awaiting the rescheduled date to be announced to jump into their suits and show up in Phuket for a linked-hands photo-op.

[Plus]

But for unknown reasons skid-Mark and his cronies thought that they were all holding their breath

They realised that the schedule is not acceptable, though, didn't they?

[JoeThePoster]

But for unknown reasons skid-Mark and his cronies thought that they were all holding their breath

They realised that the schedule is not acceptable, though, didn't they?

Duh?

[jayboy]

all sides need to recognise that the yellow and red represent huge bodies of national opinion, and cannot just be dismissed or expected to fade away.

Oh they will, given certain conditions, they will, both of them.

Yellows have already melted away, there's only one issue that might bring them back - amnesty for Thaksin. If that condition is met, you won't see yellows anymore, except for reunion parties.

And reds are in the process of dissolving, too. Songkran riots blew the wind out of their sails, now it's only die hard nuts and rabid leaders left.

If Abhisit manages to confine red leaders to fighting in parliament, you won't see red rallies on the streets.

Even red supporters have realised that they've been drafted into politicians, not people's war. When will our "progressive" analysts see it, too?

There's no class struggle here, no farmers vs urbanites, no poor against middle classes, no "rift" that pitches people against each other. All those reasons were made up by leftist academics ala Giles to justify drawing their salaries..

Oddly enough I would like you to be right.. but I don't think this struggle can be so easily drained of ideological content.(I am assuming your comment about leftist academics was facetious: fair enough, I'm facetious all the time).Of course you are right about politicians exploiting the situation, on both sides I suggest.The key point surely is to confine the conflict to the maximum extent possible to the parliamentary arena.This in turn requires some kind of national consensus.

As an aside I wonder how much influence progressive analysts really have.Certainly there does seem to be some kind of agitprop campaign going on but isn't it just full of sound and fury signifying not very much.Don't forget there is a parallel propaganda campaign, often publicly financed, for an outdated feudal view of Thailand rather reminiscent of sixteenth century England.Shakespeare said " Take but degree away (effectively meaning don't agitate about your lowly position and respect one's social superiors) and hark what dischord follows."

[animatic]

The film festival died for lack of scheduled people to come see it.

Flue pandemic fears would go a LONG way to discourage;

International travelers from

gathering in large groups in confined air-conditioned spaces

for hours at a time for days on end.

And how many stars, and their insurance companies

want them to come and bla bla bla to large groups

of people flying in from who knows where,

with a deadly flue arriving in Thailand via the SAME transport modes.

The ASEAN summit is postponed, mostly for scheduling reasons,

and yet the FILM Festival is not back on... nothing to do with each other,

try as he might for Hagon /P_D to link the two in his never ending cause

to slam the government every chance he gets.

3-4 weeks notice is not enough to get so many dignitaries on one place.

But also add the flue scare and red violence potential.

They had to try a reschedule, but it was never a forgone conclusion it could be met so fast.

It is a red shirt defeat, not a victory. They only caused trouble, not progress toward ANYONE'S goals

Edited May 14, 2009 by animatic

[NBT TV Phuket]

VDO item 1 on

http://thainews.prd.go.th/newsenglish/prev...hp?news_id=1110

or

It was announced that the ASEAN summit in Phuket is to be postponed, while local authority and businesses confirm that they will be good hosts when the event is rescheduled, but the Phuket Film Festival 2009 had to be cancelled at same time.

Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya announced the postponement of the ASEAN plus Three plus Six Summit in Phuket proposed by the Thai government in mid June, citing conflicts of schedule by other head of states and their internal commitments as the main reasons. He said initial rescheduling may aim for late October. The Foreign Minister insisted that the postponement does not damage the country, but agreed that it may be disappointing that the summit is again delayed. He expects that the next schedule may be in late October as Thailand is due to host the 15th ASEAN Summit then and that the two summits may be held at same time. He said Thailand will consult with ASEAN & other 6 Foreign Ministers in late July. On the local side, the Phuket Tourist Association president Somboon Jirayus voiced his disappointment saying that if the meeting did happen it would liven up the island during low season as well as boost confidence among foreigners. He insists that Phuket is still prepared to host the summit in October, but need to be confirmed in advance. It was the same for the Hotel Association president for southern chapter, Metee Tanmanatrakul, who expressed his disappointment as Phuket has been working on preparation, but said he understands why it must be delayed. On the authority side, Phuket Governor Wichai Praisa-Ngob, after his meeting to work on road beautification and landscaping in leading up to the summit, then learnt about the postponement of the summit & said he would still work on the preparation to accommodate the summit later in the year. Just before the announcement of the postponement, Andaman News team visited the Karon area where the Hilton Acadia Resort and Spa, the meeting venue, is located, and saw that shops and stalls along side roads were excited about the summit. They said they would be good hosts by decorating their shop fronts to welcome and impress visitors.

Meanwhile organizers of the Phuket Film Festival 2009 cancelled their June 4-11th event due to the planned heightened security on the island, just before the ASEAN postponement announcement. Scott Rosenberg, festival organizer, confirmed to Andaman News that the Festival remains cancelled. They apologize to the people of Phuket, sponsors and vendors and of course all the film makers that would have joined them. He said if they have the opportunity in the future they would gladly do it.

Andaman News NBT TV (VHF dial) at 8.30am & perhaps repeats on Phuket Cable TV channel 1 at 3.30pm, 7pm & 1am, broadcast to Phang Nga, Krabi & Phuket provinces & Mazz Radio FM108 at 7pm in Phuket, Thursday 14th May 2009 & http://thainews.prd.go.th/newsenglish/

& www.YouTube.com/AndamanNews

[Plus]

I don't think this struggle can be so easily drained of ideological content.

It's my view that the ideological content has never been there, and I am always looking for signs of it, to the best of my abilities. Much of the "evidence" I dismiss as baseless. Some of it might stick, eventually, but nothing so far.

There IS a feeling of injustice in the society, but I'd say this feeling doesn't have a defining color.

I think the next big battle will be against politicians in general, and people will drop their red/yellow labels and start a NEW movement. Realisitically, though, yellows have a necessary structure in place already, would be shame not to utilise it. I don't think reds are ready to go on ASTV to have a go at Chalerm yet, but that wouldn't that be grand?

Edited May 14, 2009 by Plus

[sbk]

While interesting, we are discussing the ASEAN summit here.

[h90]

It may be that it is best to delay this meeting until reconcilliation has moved on a bit otherwise there will always be a country or two unwilling to attend imho.It doesnt matter if the givernment changes tomorrow or goes national government. Thailand has had too many public problems for all to be easily satisfied.

Which reconciliation. While the government may want reconciliation, the red thugs and dear leader Thaksin want to grab power.

So how reconciliation should happen?

Change the constitution and put Thaksin as Dictator for lifetime? That is the only thing that make the red peaceful!

[JoeThePoster]

Yes to both posts. The Red Shirts have ruined hopes of reconciliation with their continual, non-reconciliation rhetoric.

I agree.It must be particularly disappointing for those like you who have consistently loooked for compromise and reconciliation.

[Journalist]

Which reconciliation. While the government may want reconciliation, the red thugs and dear leader Thaksin want to grab power.

So how reconciliation should happen?

And the circle keeps turning.

Of course Democrats want reconciliation, they're in power. They want reconciliation without giving that power up. And the Reds will say 'We don't want to be reconciled to anything. We just want your power'

And then if the other lot are in power, they will feel exactly the same way and they will say they want reconciliation, and the PAD will reform and say ' We don't want reconciliation. We don't want you in charge..'

And the circle keeps on turning......

I haven't seen this debate progress one millimetre forward in months, nay years.

[MeetJohnDoe]

There will be no ASEAN summit held in Thailand (or another international gathering of any note) until there is a functioning government in Thailand that has control of its own capitol city. The fact that the pinheads running Thailand at the moment would even suggest holding the summit again in their country shows how out of touch with reality they are! The fact that they had to hold the meeting in Pattaya and now suggested holding it in Phuket proves that they have no confidence in their own security forces or the government's control of Bangkok.

No country in their right mind will send their HEAD OF STATE to Thailand after seeing the performance of the Thai security forces recently in Pattaya and Bangkok (Interior Ministry attack on PM's car [whether he was in it or not]). The utter fiasco of protesters storming the hotel, again where HEADS OF STATE of foreign countries were present, demonstrates the utter collapse of the rule of law in the country and they will not be returning to Thailand any time soon.

Edited May 14, 2009 by MeetJohnDoe

[Journalist]

^Thailand is being increasingly perceived as a borderline failed state.

That may seem like overkill by those of you living peaceful and quiet lives there, and it may well be the case that the place functions fine, but perception counts for a lot.

[hammered]

Which reconciliation. While the government may want reconciliation, the red thugs and dear leader Thaksin want to grab power.

So how reconciliation should happen?

And the circle keeps turning.

Of course Democrats want reconciliation, they're in power. They want reconciliation without giving that power up. And the Reds will say 'We don't want to be reconciled to anything. We just want your power'

And then if the other lot are in power, they will feel exactly the same way and they will say they want reconciliation, and the PAD will reform and say ' We don't want reconciliation. We don't want you in charge..'

And the circle keeps on turning......

I haven't seen this debate progress one millimetre forward in months, nay years.

Basically true from what I see. The problem is at some point there will be another election. However, unless osme consensus is found it will be yet again fought under a set of rules that people dont agree on. That will just perpetuate the wholemess.

Finding consensus is what democracy relies on. You can have your divides and change policies etc but if there isnt consensus on the system and rules it isnt going to go anywhere. We await to see if a consensus can be found on this. The collapsing business market is going to focus power brokers on all sides at some point, or result in something whicvh could be very ugly.

[Plus]

The problem is at some point there will be another election. However, unless osme consensus is found it will be yet again fought under a set of rules that people dont agree on.

People have been polled several times and the result is always the same - there's nothing wrong with the constitution, it's not a priority.

Reds now have time to sit back and look at from outside, and it looks crystal clear - the fight PTP is putting up in parliament has nothing to do with people at all - "we need to address the suffering of 220 politicians affected by 2007 constitution", as one committee member said yesterday.

Also yesterday the committee agreed on several things, one of them being that 1997 const gave us stronger government and 2007 stronger people's rights. When public discussion is shaped that way, even the thickest reds would realise that irrelevance of their "true democracy".

[HagenvonTronje]

.. and it looks crystal clear -...

- crystal ball clear -

[blaze]

There will be no ASEAN summit held in Thailand (or another international gathering of any note) until there is a functioning government in Thailand that has control of its own capitol city. The fact that the pinheads running Thailand at the moment would even suggest holding the summit again in their country shows how out of touch with reality they are! The fact that they had to hold the meeting in Pattaya and now suggested holding it in Phuket proves that they have no confidence in their own security forces or the government's control of Bangkok.o

No country in their right mind will send their HEAD OF STATE to Thailand after seeing the performance of the Thai security forces recently in Pattaya and Bangkok (Interior Ministry attack on PM's car [whether he was in it or not]). The utter fiasco of protesters storming the hotel, again where HEADS OF STATE of foreign countries were present, demonstrates the utter collapse of the rule of law in the country and they will not be returning to Thailand any time soon.

That is exactly the problem--- to point the finger at the reds - or the yellows- or the blues- might feel good- but in fact the mess in Pattaya happened because those who are in charge of keeping the peace in this country are undependable- - they might or they might not stave off problems that arise. Whether because of total ineptitude- a lackadaisical approach to doing their jobs- a completely broken down of the chain of command- partisan sentiments that over ride duty- or blatant corruption- the security forces of Thailand simply do not inspire the level of confidence that is required- and nothing the government has done suggests that it is committed to improving that situation. The foreign community is not so dumb as to believe that the Interior ministry of Thailand can EVER guarantee that the army- or even the police- will do its bidding simply because they have been ordered to- ordered to by one of the lesser players in the game: the government.

A short jaunt down Sukhumvit to observe the way in which the anti-piracy crusade is being waged should, in itself, speak volumes about the relative placements of law and enforcement in this country. These are just fake handbags-but their continued flourishing presence is sympotmatic ofthe governments inablility to enforce its dictates-

Edited May 14, 2009 by blaze

[DaleBlue]

Just loose a little face, and declare the ASEAN summit to be held in Singapore instead of Thailand.

End of story.

[JoeThePoster]

Just loose a little face, and declare the ASEAN summit to be held in Singapore instead of Thailand.

End of story.

Or, Thailand could set a trend by being the first to host a virtual Asean summit by video conferencing.

But wait, hi-speed internet has not yet been invented in Thailand.

[Plus]

the security forces of Thailand simply do not inspire the level of confidence that is required

It wasn't really security forces fault, it was political ineptitude of their top commanders.

Regardless of speculations and conspiracy theories that can go in all directions, whoever was in charge shouldn't have allowed reds to pass through cordons. The fact that they didn't issue orders to stop them shows how deeply corrupt and irresponsible they are - they haven't even thought about the damage it will do to the whole country, they had only their own, narrow interests in the minds.

So we have reds trying to chase Asean away, we have security forces with minds of their own (and feeble ones at that) and we have Democrats who try to put a brave face and apologise for their countrymen's uncivilised behaviour.

That's Thailand in the nutshell for you.

So, given a choice of red monkeys, green conspirators, blue provocateurs, and Democrats - is it really a choice?

When the "elites" were in charge the coutnry at least looked a lot more presentable.... Now it's "democracy", so we get "the government we deserve" so to speak, and we obviously don't deserve much, and the neighbours look at us in disbelief - what kind of progress is that?

[dbrenn]

For whatever reason it was delayed

...the "reds" will declare the delay as their victory!

Well it is their victory. Actually I don't know what the won (maybe they won the golden banana for bringing Thailand one more step closer to be a banana republic), but they did it.

They have successfully turned Thailand back into a 3rd world country...

/remark deleted Webfact

Yeah right. Couldn't agree more. Street rioting, closing down airports, laying siege to summits is costing Thailand its reputation.

Not only a red phenomenon though. Did you hear about a group of people who closed down the airport and caused a load of chaos long before the Pattaya summit?

Poor old Abhisit. Nobody can be bothered coming to his keynote shin dig. You can imagine how the conversations went

Abhisit: "Oh, pleeeeeease come to my summit Mr. Foreign Dignitary, so that I can appear relevant to the masses! We have encircled the conference centre with battle tanks, snipers and a few infantry divisions, with helicopters to evacuate you just in case, all to make your stay in Thailand a pleasant one"

Mr. Foreign Dignitary's secretary's phone: *click*

[Koo82]

While the airport "seizure" was a major inconvenience, they never tried to blow up half Bangkok like the reds.

Please can I have evidence?

Seeing burning buses on tv and newspapers doesn't mean the reds took all these buses in to burn.

How could they do that when so many soldiers were on the street with guns since the night of 12th April? The area near Government House had burning buses too. The reds could not go inside to join the protest so how could they bring buses in?

Why has no investigation been done to find out who brought gasoline trucks in? Do you know how many gasoline trucks were used to frighten people? Where did they park?

[Koo82]

Thailand loses. Thank you, red thugs.

Chain reaction... Phuket Film Festival has been canceled too - sad - sad - sad

Another blow for Thailand.I can see the red thaksinocrats chanting victory while the credibility of their country is sinking.Sad

Yes to both posts. The Red Shirts have ruined hopes of reconciliation with their continual, non-reconciliation rhetoric.

This Asean Summit should have been held last year in Bangkok with Khun Thaksin as chairman.

The reds did not declare victory yet after the Pattaya day. They'll declare victory one time after true democracy is back to Thailand.