Thai Scripts

[Richard W]

3. The Lao and Thai scripts and the Lao and Thai languages have developed independently, though obviously with contact between and influence upon one another. Lao is not a lazy, corrupt, or backwards version of Thai. They have their own traditions, with their own writing systems dating back centuries.

Are the scripts really independent? I think it is more like regional styles of the Roman alphabet. Both the Thai and Lao scripts have come a long way, in the same directions, since the early Sukhothai script. In many ways, the Lao script is a more conservative version of the Thai script, both in style and in preserving a couple of subscript consonants, though it has its own innovations. A relatively recent innovation shared by the two scripts is mai tri and mai chattawa.

[rak sa_ngop]

A relatively recent innovation shared by the two scripts is mai tri and mai chattawa.

I studied the Lao language for several years and was always puzzled why we had to learn mai tri and mai chattawa tone marks, yet I don't think I ever came across any words that used these tone marks in Lao script (very few if any unless maybe they were Thai words?).

Lao is such a nice script to learn because it has eliminated many of the irregular (Pali=Sanskrit) spellings so is nearly totally phonetic.

[Barabbas]

Lao is such a nice script to learn because it has eliminated many of the irregular (Pali=Sanskrit) spellings so is nearly totally phonetic.

It happened as a language reform after the socialist revolution in Laos, as a part of "leaving disgraceful past behind". Prior to 60-70ies of XX century, the spellings were quite irregular, let me assure You.

[Rikker]

It's not generally accepted (except perhaps in Thai conventional wisdom) that modern Lao derives from the Sukhothai script. Lao tradition maintains otherwise, and there is little scholarly agreement. In fact, the relationships of all the regional scripts to one another (and there are many) is still not perfectly understood.

I don't have a real opinion on the matter, because I'm not very well read up on it.

[Richard W]

It's not generally accepted (except perhaps in Thai conventional wisdom) that modern Lao derives from the Sukhothai script.

Unless they mean it diverged from the Thai script later, the claim of independence is perverse. The King Litai script would be a starting point, as that rejected at least some of the linearisation that went into the Sukhothai script - it restored superscript and subscript vowels, and started the use of mai hanakat. At the very least, it has converged on the Thai letter forms. An example of convergence is the Shan script, which now has many resemblances to the Burmese script, but started as a version of the Tai Le script.

However, the evolution of Tai abugidas has a good deal of crossing. For example, the Lao script (and Tai Noi before it) shares a middle class consonant for the [y] sound (if you'll forgive the Americanism), formerly preglottalised, whence อย in Thai, with the Tua Mueang, a Monic (or Burmic, if you prefer) script, and the tone marks have spread across both.

[Rikker]

Again, this is behind my area of particular knowledge, but I think that later convergence must clearly be the alternate argument.

And your account assumes, of course, the authenticity of the Ramkhamhaeng script. Another point of contention. I know only what I've read, but I'll try to dig up references to folks who reject the Sukhothai origin of Lao. I think Smyth, for instance, claimed its origin is "obscure".

[oldsparrow]

On this topic I think we should also look at Khmer script. It is the origin of both Thai and Lao scripts at certain degree. Glance over at Khmer and I you see the same outline. Their number is still the same as ๑๒๓๔๕ ืีnumbers

[Rikker]

That both are ultimately related to the Old Khmer script isn't disputed, as far as I know.

The alphabetical order is common to pretty much all Indic-derived scripts and languages. Khmer was adapted from an Indic script, and ultimately in the Brahmic family of scripts (as, by inheritance, are Lao and Thai). In Southeast Asia, that means Khmer, Lao, Thai, Burmese, Mon, Shan, and umpteen more all have the same basic order of consonants, divided into varga (วรรค) depending on the place of articulation in the mouth. (This has been discussed in some detail before, e.g. here.)

The numerals are also Khmer, borrowed by Thai. Some of the Lao numerals differ from Khmer/Thai, though. Richard, do you know what the reason behind that difference is?

[Richard W]

The numerals are also Khmer, borrowed by Thai. Some of the Lao numerals differ from Khmer/Thai, though. Richard, do you know what the reason behind that difference is?

I think they're mostly just the Northern style - '3', '6', '8' and '9' are very close to the 'sacred' series of digits in the Tua Mueang. Northern digits have a tendency to adopt the shapes of similar-looking Tua Mueang (a.k.a. Tham) letters, and the 'sacred' series looks like the Khmer/Thai digits. The other series in use, the 'profane' series, is pretty much the Burmese digits, but only Lao '7' seems to bear any great resemblance to the Burmese digits.

I wonder if the Khmer digits have had some Thai influence. They're very similar to the Thai numbers, and of course the names of the higher numbers in Khmer are T(h)ai.

[Rikker]

I wonder if the Khmer digits have had some Thai influence. They're very similar to the Thai numbers, and of course the names of the higher numbers in Khmer are T(h)ai.

That's an interesting question, and one that should be fairly easy to investigate. I'll see if I can dig up some examples of Khmer numerals pre- and post-dating T(h)ai script.