Police Charged Over Drug War

[Journalist]

SJ does, if you just take these tags / threads into consideration, keeps us all fully informed on the latest news and relative information while also taking part in the ongoing debate / debates.

This is typical of his much appreciated work ethos of course.

marshbags

Yes, he is very good at aggregating, but lets not be starry-eyed. Internet piracy of intellectual property is not a proposition for Einstein, (more like one for a crim like Thaksin!)

[Old Man River]

The lack of compassion and respect for human rights voiced in this thread is chilling.

Yes it is, and from people who in the next breath will be telling you how important the democratic rule of law is to them.

Sometimes the ends justifies the means. Sometimes it doesn't. My view. Obviously, not yours.

[rixalex]

The lack of compassion and respect for human rights voiced in this thread is chilling.

Yes it is, and from people who in the next breath will be telling you how important the democratic rule of law is to them.

Sometimes the ends justifies the means. Sometimes it doesn't. My view. Obviously, not yours.

And if the means is the killing of someone in your family, is it still justified by the ends? Of course not. Some other unfortunate soul, now that's a different matter, right?

[Journalist]

The lack of compassion and respect for human rights voiced in this thread is chilling.

Yes it is, and from people who in the next breath will be telling you how important the democratic rule of law is to them.

Sometimes the ends justifies the means. Sometimes it doesn't. My view. Obviously, not yours.

And if the means is the killing of someone in your family, is it still justified by the ends? Of course not. Some other unfortunate soul, now that's a different matter, right?

You keep saying .

"What if it was in your family?"

But, don't you see. None of us would let it get to the point that our kids were dealing. We'd do something about it.

We wouldn't sit there lying on the couch watching ladyboy game shows while our kids were out all night, then come back at 3 am with a pile of dough - and not ask questions. ...then feel shocked when they get plugged, or O/D

Yeah, someone's to blame for the fatal hit, whether bullet or score, and you might say you deserve justice, or compensation - but its too dam_n late to bring them back. You gotta think ahead, Stop the kid from toddling into the fireplace.

So your question, whilst Socratic, is kind of moot. But the answer is....

"I'd feel like an idiot. Because I had been a lousy parent and missed all the danger signs that might have let me help them escape that fate."

Edited May 27, 2009 by Journalist

[sriracha john]

Yep... dem were da days of News Clippings... 0 replies and myself replying and perhaps 1 or 2 other replies.

It's come a looooong way since I came on and showed interest. It's been ever-increasing number of contributors ever since.

I don't claim to have built News Clippings up from nothing by myself... but a review of the archives reveals the level of my involvement in that huge growth spurt within this forum.

Let's hope that sitting behind a laptop 24/7 hasn't contributed to a huge growth spurt to your backside !

Seriously I recognise your dedication even though I almost always disagree with your editorial slant.

The backside's just fine, younghusband.

Hope yours is, too.

And yes, it's hard to recall someone with whom I've disagreed with more over the years other than The Master... but it's all been good.

It gives me a lot of satisfaction to know I spurred a lot of interest into this previous, little-visited corner of information and discussion.

The tribute was a sincere one.It's a pity you are so partisan..with a bit more balance you could have achieved much more.

Younghusband ! I shall add that to the various incarnations that have been suggested.Keep them coming.

Classic stuff, YH. Throw out a flame followed by a few words of half-hearted conditional praise and then step back and consider that a "tribute."

Edited May 27, 2009 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

The lack of compassion and respect for human rights voiced in this thread is chilling. Those who were drug dealers still have the right to a fair trail according to the constitution. What is wrong with you people that you would condone such action? And the bucks did stop with Thaksin as he took all the 'credit' for it, he now must accept all blame for the War on Drugs too. Jeez guys, innocent people were murdered by a government which was proud of doing so. How can anyone think that is right? I can't even read this thread anymore.

Surprising stuff, isn't it?

[sriracha john]

THAILAND: New Probe into ‘Drug War’ Killings Takes a Stab at Impunity

BANGKOK, May 27 (IPS) - A special investigative arm of Thailand’s criminal justice system is set to mount a fresh probe into a massacre of civilians during a brutal ‘war on drugs’ launched six years ago, when the authoritarian Thaksin Shinawatra was the country’s prime minister.

Kalasin, a province in the rural northeast, will feature in this fresh probe by the Department of Special Investigations (DSI). Kalasin’s existing policy of "x-raying every community" to keep it narcotics free had inspired the Thaksin administration to mount its nation-wide ‘war on drugs,’ beginning in early 2003.

The neighbouring province of Roi Et, which, like Kalasin, is home to this Southeast Asian nation’s poor, farming communities, is also due to come under scrutiny. The northwestern province of Tak, close to the Thai-Burma border, may also face fresh probes, says a source familiar with these investigations.

"It has taken more than five years for the DSI to wrap up its investigation into the death of 17-year-old Kiattisak Thitboonkrong, who was found hanged from the ceiling of a hut in Roi-Eat’s Chang Han district in July 2004," the Bangkok Post reported.

"[A DSI] officer said there were several loose ends in Kiattisak’s death, not to mention an autopsy report which showed he was beaten unconscious before he was found hanged," the English-language daily revealed. "The teenager - arrested in theft and drug charges - had been bailed out by a person who was not his relative and he never returned home."

The paper also listed 20 other names of "young people in Kalasin, which many believe were extra-judicial executions."

According to the DSI, 15 of them were shot - conveying a grisly picture of what had happened between 2003 and 2005.

Lawan Rattanapreechchan was among those who lost relatives during that bloody crackdown on Thailand’s narcotics network. The 46-year-old’s sister and her sister’s husband were gunned down in May 2003 near a security checkpoint in a town in Tak.

The DSI’s decision to file charges against six police officers for the death of Kiattisak brings to an end the absence of justice that had taken root since the drug suppression campaign of the Thaksin administration ended.

Not a single member of the police - who many human rights groups charged were involved in the killings - was prosecuted.

"This sends a strong signal to the police that they have to comply with the rule of law," says Somchai Homlaor, President of the Campaign Committee for Human Rights, a coalition of local rights lobbies. "It is also a strong signal to Thai society to fight impunity, because the culture of impunity is strong among the Thai police, politicians, and bureaucrats."

"Many families who lost relatives during the ‘war on drugs’ have been afraid to speak out," he added during an interview. "This should give them strength."

In 2003, alone, over 2,500 people were killed in the ‘war on drugs’ that was unleashed by the Thaksin administration to combat growing concern about the high number of Thais - some as young as 15 years - being hooked on methamphetamines. A U.N. study at the time estimated that between 500 million to 700 million ‘speed pills’ produced in the narcotic labs in neighbouring Burma were smuggled across the border into Thailand annually.

But Thaksin, who was ousted from power by the military in a September 2006 coup, dismissed charges of extra-judicial killings. Ignored were the directives given by him and others in his administration to show little mercy - which human rights group said, at the time, was a "license to kill."

"The [drug dealers] will be put behind bars or even vanish without a trace. Who cares," were the chilling words of Wan Mohamad Noor Matha, Interior Minister.

"The government’s strategy is to smoke out pushers, who will be eliminated by their own kind," Thaksin said.

The current investigations come at a time when Thaksin - currently living in exile - has been campaigning to project himself as a leader of a democratic movement. That stems from him spearheading two governments that were voted into power with impressive majorities in 2001 and 2005.

Yet Thaksin’s claims to being an icon of democracy were always dogged by his bloody legacy. Besides the ‘war on drugs’ there were other abuses, such as the 78 unarmed Malay-Muslim protesters who were killed in military custody in the country’s troubled southern provinces in October 2004, and the 20 human rights defenders killed during the five-and-a-half years of the Thaksin administration.

Analysts however doubt if the new investigations by the DSI into the deaths during the ‘war on drugs’ will damage Thaksin, even though "he personally originated the campaign and said things to incite violence."

"I don’t think it will affect him; it is a pity," says Chris Baker, a British academic who has written extensively on Thai politics. "It is very difficult to go after him, because the evidence is very circumstantial."

- Inter Press Service (Italy) / 2009-05-27

[JetsetBkk]

Yep... dem were da days of News Clippings... 0 replies and myself replying and perhaps 1 or 2 other replies.

It's come a looooong way since I came on and showed interest. It's been ever-increasing number of contributors ever since.

I don't claim to have built News Clippings up from nothing by myself... but a review of the archives reveals the level of my involvement in that huge growth spurt within this forum.

We clearly disagree on a lot of things, but no one can argue that you weren't/aren't the most regular and consistent contributor to this forum. And for that, you should be congratulated.

[sriracha john]

Yep... dem were da days of News Clippings... 0 replies and myself replying and perhaps 1 or 2 other replies.

It's come a looooong way since I came on and showed interest. It's been ever-increasing number of contributors ever since.

I don't claim to have built News Clippings up from nothing by myself... but a review of the archives reveals the level of my involvement in that huge growth spurt within this forum.

We clearly disagree on a lot of things, but no one can argue that you weren't/aren't the most regular and consistent contributor to this forum. And for that, you should be congratulated.

Thank you and that was very fair-minded and downright nice of you to say so. YH should take note of how to pay a compliment.

[rixalex]

You keep saying .

"What if it was in your family?"

But, don't you see. None of us would let it get to the point that our kids were dealing. We'd do something about it.

Not that i actually agree with anyone being shot dead in the street without trial, but i was refering to the collateral damage in the war. Those who were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and that had nothing to do with drugs. The "eggs" that need to be cracked to make that "kai jeaw". The means that is justified by the ends for some.

So what if the "egg" and the "means" was your child? Still worth it?

Edited May 28, 2009 by rixalex

[Old Man River]

The lack of compassion and respect for human rights voiced in this thread is chilling.

Yes it is, and from people who in the next breath will be telling you how important the democratic rule of law is to them.

Sometimes the ends justifies the means. Sometimes it doesn't. My view. Obviously, not yours.

And if the means is the killing of someone in your family, is it still justified by the ends? Of course not. Some other unfortunate soul, now that's a different matter, right?

Those are your words, not mine.

It is good to know people like you still exist. I didn't know perfect people were still around. Sainthood is around the corner for you.

[rixalex]

Sometimes the ends justifies the means. Sometimes it doesn't. My view. Obviously, not yours.

And if the means is the killing of someone in your family, is it still justified by the ends? Of course not. Some other unfortunate soul, now that's a different matter, right?

Those are your words, not mine.

So if not innocent people being slain without trial, what exactly were you refering to when you said "sometimes the ends justifies the means"?

If the shoe fits.

[Plus]

None of us would let it get to the point that our kids were dealing.

It would never happen to me and my kids. Classic defence.

What if they go off to college and get shot there?

In some cases they could be just framed - beaten up, hanged, then pills planted on their bodies.

Again, even Thaksin would not dare say that a few innocent lives must be sacrificed, he threatened only actual dealers.

[Old Man River]

Sometimes the ends justifies the means. Sometimes it doesn't. My view. Obviously, not yours.

And if the means is the killing of someone in your family, is it still justified by the ends? Of course not. Some other unfortunate soul, now that's a different matter, right?

Those are your words, not mine.

So if not innocent people being slain without trial, what exactly were you refering to when you said "sometimes the ends justifies the means"?

If the shoe fits.

Obviously not innocent people. That is what I meant by it getting out of hand and yes, I do blame Thaksin for this. As CEO of the country, he should have known much better on how to control the elimination of the scum of the earth (my words, not yours). In the US we have a war on terror. That has also got out of hand as well, but at inception I supported it. As it has evolved, I don't anymore.

[rixalex]

Obviously not innocent people.

I'm afraid if you have read this thread you would know that it's not that obvious. Indeed one poster even responded to the matter of innocent people getting caught up in it with "so what". Other people have spoken about having to break a few eggs to make an omelette - in other words, if a few innocent lives are lost it will be worth it for all the "vermin" that we get rid off.

control the elimination of the scum of the earth (my words, not yours).

Please quote where i have said such a thing.

[Old Man River]

Obviously not innocent people.

I'm afraid if you have read this thread you would know that it's not that obvious. Indeed one poster even responded to the matter of innocent people getting caught up in it with "so what". Other people have spoken about having to break a few eggs to make an omelette - in other words, if a few innocent lives are lost it will be worth it for all the "vermin" that we get rid off.

control the elimination of the scum of the earth (my words, not yours).

Please quote where i have said such a thing.

First, don't confuse what I have said with some of the others. I have my own views. Second, when I say my words, not yours, I am not saying your words, not mine.

[Plus]

I am not saying your words, not mine.

Confusing.

Still, under official policy low level drug dealers were made to sign some papers and let go. Official policy was decriminalisation and forgiveness.

I don't think it would have been effective if there was no killings, though. So somebody had to be murdered to make a point for others. That's just terrorism.

Ok, not terrorism, but it's like hostage takers killing people to show that they mean business.

[rixalex]

First, don't confuse what I have said with some of the others.

I didn't. I was pointing out what others have been saying, before you came along with your "sometimes the ends justifies the means" comment - which did seem to be supporting the views of our "omelette" "friends".

Second, when I say my words, not yours, I am not saying your words, not mine.

My apologies.

Running on not enough sleep thanks to the game of football!

Edited May 28, 2009 by rixalex

[Old Man River]

First, don't confuse what I have said with some of the others.

I didn't. I was pointing out what others have been saying, before you came along with your "sometimes the ends justifies the means" comment - which did seem to be supporting the views of our "omelette" "friends".

Second, when I say my words, not yours, I am not saying your words, not mine.

My apologies.

Running on not enough sleep thanks to the game of football!

I hope your team won.

[rixalex]

First, don't confuse what I have said with some of the others.

I didn't. I was pointing out what others have been saying, before you came along with your "sometimes the ends justifies the means" comment - which did seem to be supporting the views of our "omelette" "friends".

Second, when I say my words, not yours, I am not saying your words, not mine.

My apologies.

Running on not enough sleep thanks to the game of football!

I hope your team won.

Thanks but sadly they did not.

[Journalist]

None of us would let it get to the point that our kids were dealing.

It would never happen to me and my kids. Classic defence.

What if they go off to college and get shot there?

In some cases they could be just framed - beaten up, hanged, then pills planted on their bodies.

Again, even Thaksin would not dare say that a few innocent lives must be sacrificed, he threatened only actual dealers.

You're selectively quoting me , because I add that if it did happen and God forbid, I lost my child in a drug fight, then I would be angry, but that anger would be in no small measure directed at myself. Today there is a tendency to always apportion blame elsewhere.

If a child was shot and was not trafficking/pushing drugs, but was murdered by some copper with a grudge or some unrequited urge. Then of course a parent has a justificable gripe. But it should be principally against the policeman who used the war on drugs to further a personal agenda of vengeance. Precisely as you say, Thaksin never said that kids uninvolved in the trade should be liquidated,

This was always couched as a 'war' on drugs, it wasn't a soft campaign of awareness. But..... this is not all about Thaksin, and to split the issue down partisan party political lines, is a simplification. Yes, he is culpable for not approaching this legally, and yep he belongs in the dock to the same extent that the 3000 policemen with itchy trigger fingers and every other member of the elite who green-lighted the war, (and I mean every single one).

If he throws caution to the wind and says things in the witness box that break lese majeste laws- in his defence, so be it. He'll have another lawsuit on his hands !!!!

[Plus]

You're selectively quoting me

I was addressing the common argument - "this would never happen to MY kids", not your particular situation.

Thaksin never said that kids uninvolved in the trade should be liquidated,

Thaksin never said any death squads existed either. Yet he set them up and gave the list of targets, and there must have been some sort of chain of command to pass "go" orders.

>>>

In some cases there could have been police with the grudge settling scores, but generally it's not the police who did the killings and I bet they didn't have a vote on when it's time to call the killers.

In their defence the police could say - we had to have a number of persons killed, if we didn't we'd be punished for dereliction of duty. Thaksin's warth at "underperforming" provinces was reported in the media.

[BigC]

Excellent news on THAKSIN'S Drug War...

the article also includes a Death Roster.... which unfortunately is woefully undersized... but if you don't mind squinting a bit...

one thing i am not sure about. if the govment sanctioned these killings then at the time they may or may not have been illegal. if they were legal at the time they should not be arreasted. unless the killing were just hits when really they wanted them to make look like drug arrestes. in other words someone pays a copper to ping someone. the copper does it then puts soem yabba in the dead persons pocket.

if you could be arrested for things that used to be legal then i hope holland does not make cannibis a hanging affense. everyone would be dead

[marshbags]

Sadly when it comes down to the facts regarding how and who becomes addicts is not about controlling / watching over / educating our children ect. ect.

This situation knows no bounds or limits and none of the above nor if i may add without sounding condescending or snobbish, nor does position and class.

( Apart from those deemed unimportant within the walls of Thai Puyai, that is, retribution / punishment wise, when limits are cruelly seperated )

Anyone can become addicted and in many cases the evil financiers and drug barons and dealers, know no bounds when giving freebies to get them hooked and eventually becoming yet more statistics within the tragedy of drugs and what they represent.

One thing again that stands out more than anything in this evil and murderous drug war is the fact that I cannot remember or recollect anyone of so called standing, becoming one of the victims via the horrendous EKJ,s / EJK,s.

Just one, ( at least ) would have been important for myself ( and more importantly the loved ones effected personally ), if I may be allowed to say it without sounding a bad person as unimportance cries out loud and clear and not one life was wasted during this War On Drugs from the upper so called classes. ?????

To think that the lives savagely took away didn,t count for nothing to Thaksin and his ilk is the most heart wrenching thing of all for me.

How very sad the so called values of government and the police authorities did not include helping and protecting the very citizens they allegedly cared about when running for election.

At least 2,500 of them anyway, plus their loved ones.

How very sad that certain members on this thread can belittle what encompasses this tragic and disturbing vendetta and it,s victims with petty and insensitive observations and remarks.

They bring shame to all respecting members and our values for human life and fair play.

Low life doesn,t even begin to describe some of the comments on this thread that are there for all to read, this includes the many guests who log onto our beloved and respected forum and see them.

What they must be thinking, God only knows.

Shame! Shame! Shame! to the minority that undermine all of us in such a discraceful, insensitive, non caring way.

marshbags

Edited May 29, 2009 by marshbags

[Journalist]

if I may be allowed to say it without sounding a bad person as unimportance cries out loud and clear and not one life was wasted during this War On Drugs from the upper so called classes. ?????

marshbags

Would you feel better if they'd shot a few rich kids too?

You're muddying your own argument. This wasn't a war to exterminate the poor or the underclass. Gas chambers would have done that far quicker than bullets and with less stress on the executioners. That methodology has already been proven.

[justanothercybertosser]

Just one, ( at least ) would have been important for myself ( and more importantly the loved ones effected personally ), if I may be allowed to say it without sounding a bad person as unimportance cries out loud and clear and not one life was wasted during this War On Drugs from the upper so called classes. ?????

marshbags

You are wrong.

I do know a very upper class lady whose drug dealing nephew was killed during the drug war.

Of course far more poor died during the drug war killings as they were the mass of visible dealers. Most mid and top ranked dealers escaped before the drug war killings, either to foreign countries, or to provinces they were not known in, as they had the means to do so, unlike low level dealers.

I do share much of your disgust with the extrajudicial killings. But we should stay with the facts, and not make things up because they sound good.

[rixalex]

But we should stay with the facts, and not make things up because they sound good.

Like this you mean?

I do know a very upper class lady whose drug dealing nephew was killed during the drug war.

Of course it could be true, but with nothing else to go on but the word of some anonymous bloke on the internet, who knows? Unless you want to share the details?

(I might add also that even if it is true, the fact that the lad had an upper class aunt doesn't necessarily mean that his family were of the same standing)

[Plus]

I suppose you can't be called an upper class unless you can pull the rank on the police.

[justanothercybertosser]

But we should stay with the facts, and not make things up because they sound good.

Like this you mean?

I do know a very upper class lady whose drug dealing nephew was killed during the drug war.

Of course it could be true, but with nothing else to go on but the word of some anonymous bloke on the internet, who knows? Unless you want to share the details?

(I might add also that even if it is true, the fact that the lad had an upper class aunt doesn't necessarily mean that his family were of the same standing)

In this case, anything anybody says on this forum here can be discredited the same way, as we all are somewhat anonymous and we can reduce the discussion to a senseless cut and pasting of news articles. Fine, then we can all shut up, and the forum will die a quick death. If that is what you want...

You have very little idea about the class set up of Thailand if you believe that close relatives of people of upper class are not seen as such. The now relatively free class structure based on achievement of the west cannot be translated to Thailand, where class is based on heritage. As to details, no, i am afraid i will not provide them, sorry. You are free to disbelieve me. I don't really care.

Anyhow. Marshbags tries to present the drug war as some sort of elitist conspiracy against the poor, which is a ridiculous misinterpretation. The drug war was popular under all sectors of society, and that includes the classes where most people who got killed came from. That is a clear fact. One of the reasons is that those classes carried also the largest burden of the massive spread of amphetamines, disabling their families. For these people the drug war improved their life, and the killings in their view were collateral damage. Don't say now that i support the killings. I do not. I try to explain why the drug war was and still is popular, and why you will not see any majority support in investagating it. And for other reasons you will also not see much support in the elites, beyond a few symbolic convictions that won't damage the enabling system.

What a few farang (including me) on an internet board say here, has no relevance whatsoever to Thai reality. You are grasping for straws if you believe that the investigations that you read here in newspaper articles posted will lead anywhere substantial. It's a slow news day, nothing else.

If these drug war threads are to be dealt with as group therapy sessions for farang emotionally damaged and suffering PTSD from having read about people getting killed in their land of imaginary paradise several years ago, then please, say so in the thread title, and i will leave it alone.

But as long as this is supposed to be an open discussion on the drug war killings, i believe we should be able to discuss as many aspects of it as legally possible.

[Journalist]

It's a slow news day, nothing else.

Nearly every single day is a slow news day !

And thats our great media con. (well not mine, as on slow news days I just go for a liquid lunch, like today).

i.e......to make people believe that 'news' is happening every single day.

Now: lets alight to the BIG news. .....Is Abhisit a great monogamous lover in his paisley jimjams? .....