Us Expats And Health Care Reform

[Jingthing]

Yes it has to be paid for. Nobody is denying that. Yes, the rich will pay more. Nobody is denying that either. Since most people aren't rich, its surprising it isn't more popular. Most Americans actually believe they will become rich one day when only a small percentage ever will, when in the current reality upward mobility in classes is much more fluid in Europe these days than the USA. The Thais aren't the only ones who need some serious education reform. It's funny, nobody seems to be complaining about the mistake of the war in Iraq which was really money down a rathole, a war based on lies. At least spending for health care saves lives.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Jingthing

[thaijasmine]

Somtimes outsiders i.e. non Amercians ( outsiders ) can see events unfolding more clearly.

To me it so obvious the Health care reform is mainly about an attempt at more government control.

Just look at the number of Marxist " progressive movement " lefties Obama has surrounded himself with

and its obvious how Obama and his mob want to change America - spookie....................

Edited March 23, 2010 by thaijasmine

[Jingthing]

Yeah, sure, Glenn Beck and Fox News is broadcast globally. If Europeans don't like the US taking small steps towards the basic health of their citizens, tough cookies, we don't want to die early because of your John Wayne macho delusions of what America is supposed to be.

The Obama health care reform is massively pro capitalist. Anyone who thinks it is anything other than a MODERATE compromise bill that leaves real progressives (like me) out in the cold, needs much more coffee. I agree Obama wanted more but this moderate bill is going to cost such a high political price, there is very little chance he will passing anything else like it even if he serves out two terms which I believe he will. In other words, he shot his wad early when it was actually possible to win something. He won a big one. The backlash is huge. How much more "radical" change do you think will be possible now?

Edited March 23, 2010 by Jingthing

[ThailandLovr]

Yes it has to be paid for. Nobody is denying that. Yes, the rich will pay more. Nobody is denying that either. Since most people aren't rich, its surprising it isn't more popular. Most Americans actually believe they will become rich one day when only a small percentage ever will, when in the current reality upward mobility in classes is much more fluid in Europe these days than the USA. The Thais aren't the only ones who need some serious education reform. It's funny, nobody seems to be complaining about the mistake of the war in Iraq which was really money down a rathole, a war based on lies. At least spending for health care saves lives.

Yeah Jing, it is surprising there isn't more outrage expressed at the mammoth costs of the two wars. Ungodly expensive. dam_n right I'd rather the money was spent some other way, or not at all.

You know, it's ironic people initially came to the USA, the land of opportunity to have more freedom from government and to be able to prosper. As you say, now upward mobility may be more fluid in Europe.

Reminds me of Javert in Les Miserables lamenting, "The world is all mixed up, the world is upside down", before plunging to his death.

[jazzbo]

It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.

Harry S Truman, in Observer, April 13, 1958

With Health Insurance in America, the big difference is whether you have it or you don't have it -- the status quo was that it was OK for the Republicans to tell the 30-40 million or so Americans that do not qualify for or cannot afford the cost of insurance to just die quietly... and those are really not the abject poor who are covered by Medicaid -- it is mainly the so-called working poor who do not qualify via employment or have some pre-existing condition.

[ThailandLovr]

It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it's a depression when you lose yours.

Harry S Truman, in Observer, April 13, 1958

With Health Insurance in America, the big difference is whether you have it or you don't have it -- the status quo was that it was OK for the Republicans to tell the 30-40 million or so Americans that do not qualify for or cannot afford the cost of insurance to just die quietly... and those are really not the abject poor who are covered by Medicaid -- it is mainly the so-called working poor who do not qualify via employment or have some pre-existing condition.

It was absolutely proper IMO for health care to be extended to everybody. I personally have a friend who was sent home to die because she did not have insurance for a needed operation. She ended up having a friend who was in the Army marry her (temporarily) so she could get her life-saving operation. My major complaint is involves process: the deception, misinformation, games-playing, secrecy, outright lies - and the voice of the people being ignored. Washington know best. Bull-shit. Get your reform, but do it straight up.

[Jingthing]

I have a close relative who married an old friend just to get him health insurance through her employment plan after he had a serious disease. With Obama reform, these countless insanities can end. Also there is job lock. People in a job they hate get an illness but cannot leave the job to start a business or contract because they are stuck only because of the insurance. Non-Americans have no idea how bad the US health insurance system has been. It has literally ruined millions of lives.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Jingthing

[ThailandLovr]

You are absolutely right about that Jing. The pre-existing condition thing was a killer too, being stuck in a job, lots of insurance reform was needed. Wish they'd have gone after the damned lawyers so malpractice insurance for doctors could decrease. This would have meant real savings across the board. But everybody in D.C. are lawyers and they take care of their own. Obama's 50 million for a tort reform "study" will result in nothing. He'll be paying lip service to tort reform only. Lawyers own that town. Sure hope I am proven wrong but I doubt it.

Edited March 23, 2010 by ThailandLovr

[jazzbo]

(In the 1960s)...When someone was dragging his feet on the Medicare bill, Johnson would promise to put an pork-barrel project in the congressman’s district; if someone crossed LBJ, he’d punish the person by canceling some (favorite) pork.

The historian Robert Dallek tells a great story about the time that Democratic Sen. Frank Church voted against one of Johnson’s bills. The Idaho senator told the president that he had been swayed by Walter Lippmann, an influential columnist who had attacked the bill in print. LBJ’s reply: “Frank, next time you want a (<deleted>) dam in Idaho, you call Walter Lippmann and let him put it through.”

AFAIAC, the voice of the people was heard; that's why the bill passed...

[lannarebirth]

It's a horrible piece of legislation and absolutely the right thing to do. Now that we've got it. wrote your representatives to cut out these insurance company bloodsuckers.

Edited March 23, 2010 by lannarebirth

[PeaceBlondie]

Congratulations to JingThing for his role in the thread.

[gregb]

Yes it has to be paid for. Nobody is denying that. Yes, the rich will pay more. Nobody is denying that either. Since most people aren't rich, its surprising it isn't more popular. Most Americans actually believe they will become rich one day when only a small percentage ever will, when in the current reality upward mobility in classes is much more fluid in Europe these days than the USA. The Thais aren't the only ones who need some serious education reform. It's funny, nobody seems to be complaining about the mistake of the war in Iraq which was really money down a rathole, a war based on lies. At least spending for health care saves lives.

OK. I'll complain about the war in Iraq. That still is a huge money sink and anyone supporting it needs to have their head examined.

Or how about the Wall Street banker bailout? That's an even more egregious waste of taxes on something that serves no useful purpose.

I thought this thread was supposed to be about health care reform and its effects on us expats? If this is going to be a general forum for bashing the stupidity of the US Congress I absolutely want in. I hate those bloodsucking vermin.

And none of this changes the fact that this legislation is still loathsome and offensive. Doing nothing would be better than this. If you want to pass health care reform, give us real health care reform. No, the Republicans aren't correct that universal coverage is socialism. That is just parochial garbage. And the Democrats are morons for foisting this manure on the American people.

There is a reason I moved to Thailand.

[britmaveric]

The majority of the uninsured are minorities. Could it be as I think that the republicans are owned by the health business and know these groups they don't care about dying early almost never vote republican?

Could it be that one should work for what they get rather than depend on govt handouts? Why do you yanks always bring up race when you disagree with the other side? Time to grow up and work your way up as most people in this world do. How do you think 30million people added to the healthcare will not cost everyone else more? Let's hope SCOTUS comes into play and rules it unconstitutional.

[jazzbo]

Interesting time-line from The New York Times as national health insurance was first proposed by former President Theodore Roosevelt in 1912:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/07...html?ref=policy

Unconstitutional? Possible; not likely.... the US Government certainly has a right to impose taxes and incentives or penalties... Let's hope? -- <deleted> does that mean? As I wrote above, the abject poor are already covered and have been so for nearly 50 years by the Medicaid program.

[ray23]

Ok one I want to follow the thread.

Two it's law now anyone know a source to see the end product?

I sent a letter off to Boxer to see if we would be paying and if so would we be able to us it?

[jazzbo]

Full text HR 4872 as passed:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/28572002/Reconci...-4872-Full-Text

... then download

see my earlier post on 'Essential Benefits Package" Defined -- Post #258

Edited March 23, 2010 by jazzbo

[jazzbo]

from the 'It All Depends on Whose Ox is Being Gored' Department:

President Ronald Reagan during his 2 terms in office vehemently opposed embyonic stem cell research... his wife Nancy basically never disagreed with 'Ronnie' on anything. However:

Conservative Nancy Reagan Supports Stem Cell Research for Alzheimer's

Posted by Jennifer Gerics (Aug 21, 2006)

Nancy Reagan, the former president's wife, supports stem cell research. She has publicly said she would like to do whatever she can to save other families from the pain and grief of watching a loved one lose the battle with Alzheimer's Disease. Ironically, she is part of the Republican party which denounces stem cell use as "destroying human life." President Bush banned the use of federal funds for new stem cell research in 2001.

It's amazing how such an impacting disease like Alzheimer's can make a Republican express such Democratic views.

from

http://www.suite101.com/

[TheItaliann]

samran,

many states have laws preventing hospitals from opening too close to another hospital (protecting interests/limiting supply/keeping prices high)

all the government money pumped into the system creates corporate medicine meaning that whomever is best capable of getting those funds ends up in charge (anti-free market)

over restrictive laws on the health industry to benefit certain groups.

the ability for lawyers to make millions off of malpractice suits

the cost of plastic surgery and laser eye surgery which have no correlation to health care insurance have seen prices go down while technology increases.

healthcare is a state issue. why is federal government shoving its face into state commerce? let each state decide!

this bill does not even lower premiums all it does is subsidize them for certain income brackets.

pharm and insurance stocks up today.

the government should treat the medical industry as any other free market and stay out of it.

regardless if you think poor deserve medical care or not America cannot afford it. We are paying 400 b a year in interest on our debts alone. its just crazy.

Edited March 24, 2010 by TheItaliann

[jazzbo]

Personally:

One of the main reasons I chose to stay in Thailand is that I have excellent health care insurance available at reasonable cost which is denied to me in the USA (other than through a prohibitively expensive COBRA plan) because of a chronic condition which requires medication.

My health care policy here in Thailand either does or could easily conform to the 'Essential Benefits Package' in the current HR 4872 legislation and/or I could make sure that I spend no more than 330 days in the USA each year thus being exempt from provisions.

I have never been married and have no dependent children.

I do not (at least as of now) have an annual income in excess of $250,000 per year.

Once I would turn 65 and become Medicare eligible the whole thing becomes moot anyway

So my real answer to all this HR 4872 is -- a la Mike Myers' SNL 'Coffee Talk' -- Talk -- and work it out -- amongst yourselves!

BTW Published: March 21, 2010 "How the Health Care Overhaul Could Affect You" from The New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/03...are-reform.html

Edited March 24, 2010 by jazzbo

[ThailandLovr]

(In the 1960s)...When someone was dragging his feet on the Medicare bill, Johnson would promise to put an pork-barrel project in the congressman’s district; if someone crossed LBJ, he’d punish the person by canceling some (favorite) pork.

The historian Robert Dallek tells a great story about the time that Democratic Sen. Frank Church voted against one of Johnson’s bills. The Idaho senator told the president that he had been swayed by Walter Lippmann, an influential columnist who had attacked the bill in print. LBJ’s reply: “Frank, next time you want a (<deleted>) dam in Idaho, you call Walter Lippmann and let him put it through.”

AFAIAC, the voice of the people was heard; that's why the bill passed...

Yeah jazzbo, LBJ was a man to be contended with. Nobody ever crapped on him without being bloodied somehow.

BTW, I've been thinking about your "AFAIC, the voice of the people was heard..." comment. That started me thinking about the accuracy, or lack thereof, of the polls which stated 55% of the people against the bill, only 11% approve of Pelosi, etc. I don't know if the pollsters actually reached the correct proportion of the voices of the populace (32 million+) who stood to most benefit. Seems hard to believe they wouldn't have raised Pelosi's ratings more - she is as much responsible for the bill passing as Obama himself, perhaps more. Then again, 32 million people is close to being 11% of the population. Interesting.

Edited March 24, 2010 by ThailandLovr

[jazzbo]

The voice of the people was heard on HR 4872 in a 219 in favor and 212 opposed vote... Those are the representatives elected by the people... I do not see how it could be any simpler than that. The bums may be thrown out come November 2010 elections but it was their chance to vote last Sunday... and if Mitch McC and the other Repubs want to run on the "Repeal-and-Replace" ticket, good for them ... as I said above, from a personal standpoint, I really don't care.

[jazzbo]

from Maureen Dowd's New York Times column Published: March 23, 2010:

But David Frum, the former W. speechwriter, conceded that in trying to turn health care into Obama’s Waterloo — a replay of the Clintons’ disaster in 1994 — Republicans may have made it their own Waterloo.

“We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat,” Frum wrote on his blog, adding: “Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother?”

[ThailandLovr]

The voice of the people was heard on HR 4872 in a 219 in favor and 212 opposed vote... Those are the representatives elected by the people... I do not see how it could be any simpler than that. The bums may be thrown out come November 2010 elections but it was their chance to vote last Sunday... and if Mitch McC and the other Repubs want to run on the "Repeal-and-Replace" ticket, good for them ... as I said above, from a personal standpoint, I really don't care.

No problems, but we disagree. The people's voice was heard when the House Representatives were elected, yes. But to say that, after being elected, their voting choices still always represents the voice of the people? No way. Not with all the bribery, arm-twisting, threats and other crap going on. No way.

Over and out for me on this.

[Jingthing]

The USA is a republic and NOT a direct democracy. It is not supposed to run by the rule of the mob (what would the T-parties be without Fox News anyway) and the whims of the day. Change can be made at election times.

Sadly, Obama reform is NOT socialized, universal health care. That is what the USA needs, and thanks to the right wing, has no chance of getting. This half way compromise reform does subsidize poor people to get access to health care, but the big financial winners of this bill are PRIVATE corporations. In that way, it is another example of progressive taxation which we have had for generations, but again it is not nationalized health care as in Canada (too bad for us).

Bush got some things done his way (mostly wrong in my view) by being a strong man. Obama, before this health reform big win, was in danger of getting NOTHING done for his agenda (which I happen to like). Bush didn't care about opinion polls, he cared about his agenda. Many people feel it is a GOOD thing that Obama has woken up that he indeed has to be more like Bush to get anything done, popularity polls be damned.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Jingthing

[jazzbo]

Is there really bribery, arm-twisting, threats and other crap going on? Oh, my! It reminds of the quote by former California State Assembly Speaker Jesse (Big Daddy) Unruh -- who lost to Ronald Reagan in the 1970 California Governor's election --

"If you can't drink a lobbyist's whiskey, take his money, sleep with his women and still vote against him in the morning, you don't belong in politics."

[midas]

The voice of the people was heard on HR 4872 in a 219 in favor and 212 opposed vote... Those are the representatives elected by the people... I do not see how it could be any simpler than that. The bums may be thrown out come November 2010 elections but it was their chance to vote last Sunday... and if Mitch McC and the other Repubs want to run on the "Repeal-and-Replace" ticket, good for them ... as I said above, from a personal standpoint, I really don't care.

No problems, but we disagree. The people's voice was heard when the House Representatives were elected, yes. But to say that, after being elected, their voting choices still always represents the voice of the people? No way. Not with all the bribery, arm-twisting, threats and other crap going on. No way.

Over and out for me on this.

Oh dont go yet ThailandLovr

The games have just begun !

I hope the champagne they opened in the White House wasnt too expensive !

Virginia Senate Passes Health Care Freedom Act

Breaking: Today the Virginia State Senate passed Senate Bill 283 (SB283) by a vote of 23-17.

Provides that a resident of the Commonwealth shall not be required to obtain or maintain a policy of individual insurance coverage. This applies regardless of whether the person has or is eligible for health insurance coverage under any policy or program provided by or through his employer or a plan sponsored by the Commonwealth or the federal government. The measure also states that no provision of Title 38.2 renders a resident liable for any penalty, assessment, fee, or fine as a result his failure to procure or obtain health insurance coverage.

http://blog.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2010/...re-freedom-act/

[jazzbo]

The games. Indeed...

Article. XVI.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

[britmaveric]

^I think if the yank govt wants this, best way to to get around constitutional issues is to provide it free of charge w/no penalties.

[gregb]

Sadly, Obama reform is NOT socialized, universal health care. That is what the USA needs, and thanks to the right wing, has no chance of getting.

Agreed 100%. It is simply criminal that they refuse to do this simply to line the pockets of private companies.

This half way compromise reform does subsidize poor people to get access to health care,

Depends on your definition of poor. My brother is single and earning 40,000 a year at a nominally part time job with overtime. He barely makes enough to cover expenses. He is 30 with no insurance right now because he can not afford it.

He gets no assistance under this bill. He makes too much. Only a new penalty for having the nerve to want to breathe, as he still can not afford to buy insurance. These are the real people who get hurt.

This legislation sucks. Nothing would have been better than what they did. Obama can take his rich and sorry ass and get out.

[ThailandLovr]

Jing must have gone to bed greg. It's been more than an hour now with no reply flame for speaking so disparagingly about his favorite person in the world.

Edited March 25, 2010 by ThailandLovr