Pad Name New Party: Karn Muang Mai Or New Politics

[hammered]

The PAD are nationalist , and have strong ideas of what constitutes Thainess but so are and do all the political groups. As Pleum points out there some things that no political group that wants to succeed will deny or not support. However, a look is needed beyond that to see what they are really about.

All imho

PAD's socialists are more national-socialist than socialist.

What is IMO though interesting in his article, and spot on, that the PAD is not to be written off, and has a fair chance to one day rule this country. The more messier the parliament becomes, the weaker the economy, the more attractive a fuzzy idea of "new politics" could become for many people. And very soon we will have a totalitarian system, in which any dissent will not be permitted.

No dissent and one party rule is something that many have been bent on since the turn of the millenium. It is just a disgreement on how to get there and who will control it. Everything now is about propogandizing people with any kind of lie they will accept and history shows that people are open to all kinds of lies if it suits their basic beliefs and aims at their basic fears.

I agree parliament are polticians are close to being totally discredited and hated as a group. The robber barons though still control their feudal fiefdoms and those who have the misfortune to be born into them. While plenty is said about Bangkok based elites nothing is said about the robber baron-client peasant relationship which is at least and probably more destructive to the interests of the poor. Until this issue is raised any claim that someone is doing something for the poor is utterly false.

I dont think the ex-CPT in the red or yellow shirts can be labelled in terms of european identity. They tend to be weird mixes of maoist, stalinist and leninist. And admittedly the ex-CPT and left are small in both groups which are mostly packed with traditionalists. Personally I would argue none of them are socialist and that both movements have neo asiatic facistic tendencies but that is a eurocentric aregument. I dont accept the simplistic red labels of the yellows as I dont accpet the simplistic yellow lables of the reds. Overall the reds and yellows offer nothing for the poor beyond a few platitudes and bones. Neither do the existing politcal parties. Thailand in terms of representation of the poor is currently at a dead end. A dead end that certain historical decisions made inevitable.

All imho

[RandyWhite]

Actually there is nothing new about PAD's political ideas.Perhaps a more suitable name would be Karn Muang Bolan.

One of the great lessons of history is that evil movements (I think it's fair to describe PAD's leadership in that way) often at the outset say exactly what they mean.Later they backtrack in the face of poltical realities and as they join the mainstream (if only to subvert it later).Think for example of Mein Kampf: a common reaction at the time was that Hitler didn't really mean that fascist stuff to be taken seriously.But he did... every word and when he had a chance he put it into practice.The graves of millions bear witness.

Now of course these PAD jokers are not in the same Premier League of wickedness.However one can see that the more outlandish elements of the so called new politics are now being downplayed.Even the PAD zealots on this forum are now very quiet.And let's face it unless one has one's head buried in the sand it's common knowledge that the movement has splintered and (I'm tiptoeing through the tulips now) lost some key elements of elite support.Nevertheless a disgusting political phenonomen like the PAD should not be underestimated (and I'm not talking about the decent if naive middle class people who gave support in reaction to the Thaksin outrages).Some wit said recently that PAD had no supporters these days other than urban Chinese ladies of a certain age.Well I don't know about that but don't forget there is an unpleasant undercurrent to this movement and all democrats should be passionately opposed to it.

As so often Chang Noi makes the case eloquently.

http://www.geocities.com/changnoi2/padmeaning.htm

Hear hear!!!!!!!

[Plus]

Thailand in terms of representation of the poor is currently at a dead end

The underlying reason for this is that the poor don't want representation. They live in a different kind of relationship with the power - patron client, not citizen-representative.

New politics proposes new channels for those who need to be pepresented but were always subdued by feudal politics. Everyone on this board knows I support this idea, but you can only take the horse to water, you can't make it drink.

Another idea is to let them fully participate in governing on their local level, if nation size politics are beyond their interest. That was 1997 constitution had in mind.

Either way, something needs to be changed.

[hammered]

Thailand in terms of representation of the poor is currently at a dead end

The underlying reason for this is that the poor don't want representation. They live in a different kind of relationship with the power - patron client, not citizen-representative.

New politics proposes new channels for those who need to be pepresented but were always subdued by feudal politics. Everyone on this board knows I support this idea, but you can only take the horse to water, you can't make it drink.

Another idea is to let them fully participate in governing on their local level, if nation size politics are beyond their interest. That was 1997 constitution had in mind.

Either way, something needs to be changed.

On that virtually everyone is agreed. It is just a matter of what, how, by whom, in whose interests etc

As for the poor Im not sure they dont want representation. I do think they are caught in the robber baron-feudal client relationship and nobody has the honesty or for self serving reasons the desire to go there. That is the basis of how the rural poor are controlled. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. It is slightly different for the newly emerged working class (the 24/7 year long brigade rather than the seasonal lot) but they arent anywhere near poltically engaged, organised or even united on what they want.

[Plus]

I don't know anyone who wants to change the present system but the PAD.

Reds don't want any changes, apart from no oversight from "bureaucratic polity".

PTP don't want any changes either, just less control from independent bodies.

Democrats have to carry the flag for parliamentary system, trying to prove that it works.

Nong Pluem was very happy that PAD has decided to join the mainstream politics instead of being the voice of people on the streets.

As for the poor Im not sure they dont want representation.

Now they have political demands, but that's different from participaring in governing through representatives. At best they are consumers, not participants.

The proof is glaring in our faces - after twenty years of building parliamentary democracy, there is not a single party truly advancing their interests.

New politics idea is to tap into any nascent desire to participate that is there and give it proper channels and legitimacy circumventing "robber baron-feudal client relationship" that has subverted the hollowed OMOV principle.

[jayboy]

I don't know anyone who wants to change the present system but the PAD.

Reds don't want any changes, apart from no oversight from "bureaucratic polity".

PTP don't want any changes either, just less control from independent bodies.

New politics idea is to tap into any nascent desire to participate that is there and give it proper channels and legitimacy circumventing "robber baron-feudal client relationship" that has subverted the hollowed OMOV principle.

There's nothing new about PAD just the old old refrain of hatred of politicians and whining about the stupidity of peasants.

You're dreaming if you believe there isn't a passionate desire for change among most Thais.Call them Reds if you like.

Here's a recent summary of why.

Link removed

[Plus]

There's nothing new about PAD just the old old refrain of hatred of politicians and whining about the stupidity of peasants

Yeah, but nothing has ever been done. In the west they've been patching up the flawed system, in Thailand there's a chance to start something radically different.

[Plus]

Oh, and why would anyone go to Wall Street Journal to get a proper assessement of a nascent socialist party?

>>

One thing caught my eye in that article - the cliche about red areas of the country being underdeveloped at the expense of Bangkok and urban centers.

Chang Noi recently re-compiled these statistics from a bit different angle. He found that not only Bangkok, but ALL areas where people traditionally vote for Democrats have two-three times higher incomes than areas voting for NAP/TRT/PTP.

Given that Democrats had been in power for only 25% of the time in the past two decades, and during the crisis, it's difficult to blame them for distorting national policies to favour their strongholds.

Reds have beed screwed up by their own leaders, not by elites, not by the military, not by Democrats.

[jayboy]

Oh, and why would anyone go to Wall Street Journal to get a proper assessement of a nascent socialist party?

>>

One thing caught my eye in that article - the cliche about red areas of the country being underdeveloped at the expense of Bangkok and urban centers.

Chang Noi recently re-compiled these statistics from a bit different angle. He found that not only Bangkok, but ALL areas where people traditionally vote for Democrats have two-three times higher incomes than areas voting for NAP/TRT/PTP.

Given that Democrats had been in power for only 25% of the time in the past two decades, and during the crisis, it's difficult to blame them for distorting national policies to favour their strongholds.

Reds have beed screwed up by their own leaders, not by elites, not by the military, not by Democrats.

The Wall Street Post is a serious newspaper which covers many subjects in authoritative detail.Well at least it's not being accused of being in the pay of Thaksin or being "groomed" by Howard Moon, or the usual crazy paranoid rubbish.

>>

You have not grasped (or rather have pretended not to grasp) the thrust of Chang Noi's article.Money quote:

"Of course, you can look at these findings in many ways. A cynic might say that the PPP wins in the poorer provinces because it is cheaper to buy the votes there. Someone more idealistic might imagine that the poorer provinces voted PPP because the people there thought a PPP-led government would give them more help than a Democrat-led one."

Many countries have regional divides - Italy, UK.China to name just a few.TRT turned its attention to Thailand's poor North East which has long been the deprived part of the country.Progress was made under Thaksin (how much is for discussion) and we know the outcome.Reds have never been in power but the cliche you mention is nothing but the truth.That's the odd thing about cliches.I assume you are not serious in the gobblededook logic which appears to blame the reds for the NE's underdevelopment.Of course there has been an ugly unfairness in allocation of resources over many years, but I wouldn't blame the Democrats or other ruling parties.It's a regional problem, as noted earlier, that's hardly unique to Thailand.Now, given events over the last few years, all politicians recognise that benign or not so benign neglect of the poorer regions is at an end.One key point is that NE is no longer a monolithic impoversished block since its industry, people and culture are mixed into the mainstream in a way that would have been unthinkable even thirty years ago.

One point I do agree is that Thailand is about to start a fresh course, not your quasi-fascist new politics (leaving the fuzzy and largely meaningless justifying rhetoric to one side) based on fear, class hatred and privilege but something very different.I think the speed of events may surprise some.As de Toqueville noted, radical change happens not at the lowest point but when things are getting better.Big question is whether the elite can manage change (as their equivalents have often done so in other countries) or be swamped by it.

[hammered]

Oh, and why would anyone go to Wall Street Journal to get a proper assessement of a nascent socialist party?

>>

One thing caught my eye in that article - the cliche about red areas of the country being underdeveloped at the expense of Bangkok and urban centers.

Chang Noi recently re-compiled these statistics from a bit different angle. He found that not only Bangkok, but ALL areas where people traditionally vote for Democrats have two-three times higher incomes than areas voting for NAP/TRT/PTP.

Given that Democrats had been in power for only 25% of the time in the past two decades, and during the crisis, it's difficult to blame them for distorting national policies to favour their strongholds.

Reds have beed screwed up by their own leaders, not by elites, not by the military, not by Democrats.

The Wall Street Post is a serious newspaper which covers many subjects in authoritative detail.Well at least it's not being accused of being in the pay of Thaksin or being "groomed" by Howard Moon, or the usual crazy paranoid rubbish.

>>

You have not grasped (or rather have pretended not to grasp) the thrust of Chang Noi's article.Money quote:

"Of course, you can look at these findings in many ways. A cynic might say that the PPP wins in the poorer provinces because it is cheaper to buy the votes there. Someone more idealistic might imagine that the poorer provinces voted PPP because the people there thought a PPP-led government would give them more help than a Democrat-led one."

Many countries have regional divides - Italy, UK.China to name just a few.TRT turned its attention to Thailand's poor North East which has long been the deprived part of the country.Progress was made under Thaksin (how much is for discussion) and we know the outcome.Reds have never been in power but the cliche you mention is nothing but the truth.That's the odd thing about cliches.I assume you are not serious in the gobblededook logic which appears to blame the reds for the NE's underdevelopment.Of course there has been an ugly unfairness in allocation of resources over many years, but I wouldn't blame the Democrats or other ruling parties.It's a regional problem, as noted earlier, that's hardly unique to Thailand.Now, given events over the last few years, all politicians recognise that benign or not so benign neglect of the poorer regions is at an end.One key point is that NE is no longer a monolithic impoversished block since its industry, people and culture are mixed into the mainstream in a way that would have been unthinkable even thirty years ago.

One point I do agree is that Thailand is about to start a fresh course, not your quasi-fascist new politics (leaving the fuzzy and largely meaningless justifying rhetoric to one side) based on fear, class hatred and privilege but something very different.I think the speed of events may surprise some.As de Toqueville noted, radical change happens not at the lowest point but when things are getting better.Big question is whether the elite can manage change (as their equivalents have often done so in other countries) or be swamped by it.

One thing is for sure whatever happens some bunch of meglomaniacs who know what is best for everyone will come out on top. It is imho quite unlikely that anyone will dismantle the robber baron-client set up which is at the heart of all the worst abuse but which nobody is really addressing. The reds are pretty much in an unholy alliance with them and owe them far too much and the yellows just blather on about corruption and that is accepted as OK by loads of people.The prgnosis is not good. Even if those labelled as elite by one side are swept away the robber baron local elites will not be touched, so no real change. The propognadizing the up country poor that all evil stems from BKK gives nice cover to the local evil ones and makes sure the unholy alliance stays intact guaranteeing that the robber barons can redistribute the wealth of the BKK based while with a bit of leakage increasing their own wealth and power.. Meanwhile on the other side it is try and prise the robber barons away and get them on their side which if succesful guarantees security and allows control over developments.

Shame nobody wants to look at the two sides of the coin simultaneously but to just try and criticise one while apologising away their own side. Nobody gives a monkey's about poor people when it comes to it.

[Plus]

TRT turned its attention to Thailand's poor North East...

During their first election campaign it was not an issue at all. Isan has become their stronghold after NAP and other Isan parties were absorbed in TRT, and so Isanese keep voting for the same bosses under different flags.

In the meantine Democrat MPs managed to ensure people in their provinces prospered regardless of who was in charge in Bangkok for the past two decades.

Isanese porverty is a bed of their own making.

I don't want to speculate why they keep electing same guys over and over again. Reasons are too many and none to pleasing to their self-esteem.

Someone more idealistic might imagine that the poorer provinces voted PPP because the people there thought a PPP-led government would give them more help than a Democrat-led one

How would they know - they never had one.

And this line of reasonsing was invented only in the later years of TRT, towards 2004 elections. That was five years ago, and the gap between Democrat provinces and TRT provinces has probably only grown bigger.

[jayboy]

Isanese porverty is a bed of their own making.

I don't want to speculate why they keep electing same guys over and over again. Reasons are too many and none to pleasing to their self-esteem.

A little while ago after I had described the so called New Politics as partly just whining about the peasantry, I reflected I was being too harsh.Obviously (see above) I wasn't.

Incidentally (shock horror) I see the dreaded Dow Jones turns out to be a significant shareholder in our forum's esteemed partner, The Nation

[Plus]

PAD believes they can liberate the peasantry from the yoke of "money politics".

Wouldn't it be nice?

Of course it would be better if Isanese took their fate in their own hands and worked out themselves how to improve their lot, but I wouldn't bet on it just yet.

Someone else has to save their sorry asses, they themselves expect nothing less.

There's no shortage of saviors either.

[Plus]

Oh, and didn't Thaksin once hired a PR firm to put himself into WSJ, among others?

Even if it was a couple of years ago, personall connections are still there, if he managed to win them over back then.