Sinsod?

[Thaddeus]

Sorry Mr OP but I'm going to give you my opinion

To pay sinsod or not to pay sinsod is up to you!!!!

If it's a reasonable request, and you can afford it, then pay it

If the request is not reasonable and you can't afford it, then don't

If the girl won't marry if you can't pay, then you know it was only about the money

It really is as simple as that

Correct .... and that is the one universal answer that works for every single question about the sin-sort.

Edit ..... wait for the 'what if it's only for show' brigade to turn up ...... to which the answer is.... if you in the slightest doubt that you will get any of it back , then you won't..... and then the if you can afford it pay it rule is invoked.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Thaddeus

[Thaddeus]

That is of course if she wants to leave Thailand, if he plans to take her to America, then Sinsod will almost definitely not be returned in full, unless she sends her family money every month, as she might be their only source of income.

I stopped reading this post at this point.

[vreemd13]

Why not stop farang sin sod forever, it is not done in western culture (and everybody know why, because you can't buy people). Why deny your own culture above others, just to buy face and ..... whatever .... in Thailand?

I have been offered to marry an issan daughter and to marry her brother too (yes, just for sin sod money he could do), they both have asked me themself to marry me. I deny marriage (because it is just a piece of paper), but both brother and sister are still my friends for many years now.

One year after daughter proposal to marry me, which I denied, I go visit back home, with her brother, her thai wedding with a local thai man. Incredible to see how a thai wedding can be turned into a money making party.

Farang sin sod is just about money for short time being .... nothing else more important in thai "poor" society.

Edited June 7, 2009 by vreemd13

[sirineou]

Pray tell what does this imply:

Quote

Personally I think that my fiancé getting married to me (I don’t have such a high opinion of my self , just considering the opportunities available to her as a US citizen) is of greater value, than sinsod

Unquote.

She is not a US citizen and even if she gets married she is not. Unless you mean yourself, but what benefits does that give her?

Excuse my lack of knowledge here!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you all for your thoughtful reply’s.

Forgive me if I sound ethnocentric, I am not , I have great respect for all cultures especially the Thai culture, But.

As far as the benefits of a poor girl from isaan derives from marring an American citizen ( and for that mater a Euro, or Australian or other national)are concern, in my opinion, go far above the sinsod. For instance as soon as she arrives to the US ( we have applied and should be getting her fiancé visa any day now) we will marry in the US and change her status from Visa to permanent resident, with in 2 years she will have her Green card, and with in 5 years apply for citizenship. Get An American passport and the opportunity to travel the world with most countries requiring no visa from the US. Access to first rate continuing education, and the opportunity to get a job where she makes more in 3 days than she will make in Thailand in a month, Protection under the law. Her family will , over the years, receive assistance far greater than the initial sinsod, and access to some of the opportunities available in the rest of the world that are not available to them now. But most of all she will have the opportunity to reach her full potential.

These are some of the benefits, there others, I realize there is also a down side.

Please forgive me for the some what superficial attempt to briefly answer your question, I think this is a discussion that could easily start a new and very long thread.

[sirineou]

I think your refusal to accept anecdotal comments really means you don't want to accept what others have previously written from personal experience...well they made their decisions based on what they could learn from various arenas.....you will have to do the same.....we as a forum cannot know your monetary worth.....the decisions are yours......but as you appear to be leaning towards no sinsod....or getting it back....well I would suggest if you wish to get the marriage off to a great start....start saving......

My brother in law (Thai) recently has arranged sinsod (his Thai girlfriend is Uni ed and working) the agreement was reached by the parents and immediate family...

The price 80,000 baht.......not returned......not for show....for real......and when he has this money he can marry....

You are expected to be much more affluent....so work it out...

good luck

Sorry my friend I apologize, , in an attempt to make my post short , I did not make my self clear.. I don’t refuse to except anecdotal evidence, they do have their value, but they tend to apply to individual cases and tend to contradict them selves, ( some people pay a lot. Others little some not at all) and in the end ( in my opinion) tend to contribute to the confusion rather than resolve it. I am just trying to find out what to do, so that I don’t embrace my self, my fiancé her family, and at the same time not overpay.

[sirineou]

Go with the flow < pay the sin sod or find another girl in the us . Easy .

wise words

[473geo]

I think your refusal to accept anecdotal comments really means you don't want to accept what others have previously written from personal experience...well they made their decisions based on what they could learn from various arenas.....you will have to do the same.....we as a forum cannot know your monetary worth.....the decisions are yours......but as you appear to be leaning towards no sinsod....or getting it back....well I would suggest if you wish to get the marriage off to a great start....start saving......

My brother in law (Thai) recently has arranged sinsod (his Thai girlfriend is Uni ed and working) the agreement was reached by the parents and immediate family...

The price 80,000 baht.......not returned......not for show....for real......and when he has this money he can marry....

You are expected to be much more affluent....so work it out...

good luck

Sorry my friend I apologize, , in an attempt to make my post short , I did not make my self clear.. I don't refuse to except anecdotal evidence, they do have their value, but they tend to apply to individual cases and tend to contradict them selves, ( some people pay a lot. Others little some not at all) and in the end ( in my opinion) tend to contribute to the confusion rather than resolve it. I am just trying to find out what to do, so that I don't embrace my self, my fiancé her family, and at the same time not overpay.

I accept you are trying to do the 'right' thing......discussion with your fiance is the key here.....convince her you are in for the long haul....both of you, when she is working, will take care of the parents......so rather than give them a massive amount of money now which may be gone in a few months...you will spread your support over the years....if your girl is sensible she will see the merit in this arrangement...then you put your stake in the ground as to where you see the payment amout to be...if at all? Along the lines of the Coventry post earlier in the thread.....it does work....

Do let us know

best wishes....

Edited June 7, 2009 by 473geo

[britmaveric]

Up to you.... its for show, so most certainly should get it back - this is how it works. Anyone tells you differently then you are being scammed.

[473geo]

Up to you.... its for show, so most certainly should get it back - this is how it works. Anyone tells you differently then you are being scammed.

So do the parents go into hoc to pay for the wedding....get real Brit....

[sirineou]

Pray tell what does this imply:

Quote

Personally I think that my fiancé getting married to me (I don’t have such a high opinion of my self , just considering the opportunities available to her as a US citizen) is of greater value, than sinsod

Unquote.

She is not a US citizen and even if she gets married she is not. Unless you mean yourself, but what benefits does that give her?

Excuse my lack of knowledge here!!!!!!!!!!!

Dave on the next reply is right.

As far as the benefits of a poor girl from isaan derives from marring an American citizen ( and for that mater a Euro, or Australian or other national)are concern, in my opinion, go far above the sinsod. For instance as soon as she arrives to the US ( we have applied and should be getting her fiancé visa any day now) we will marry in the US and change her status from Visa to permanent resident, with in 2 years she will have her Green card, and with in 5 years apply for citizenship. Get An American passport and the opportunity to travel the world with most countries requiring no visa from the us. Accesses to first rate continuing education, and the opportunity to get a job where she makes more in 3 days than she will make in Thailand in a month. protection under the law. Her family will , over the years receive assistance far greater than the initial sinsod, and access to some of the opportunities available in the rest of the world that are not available to them now. But most of all the opportunity to reach her full potential, Whish I don’t think is available to her in Thailand.

These are some of the benefits, I realize there is also a down side.

Please forgive me for the somewhat superficial attempt to briefly answer your question, I think this is a discussion that could easily start a new and very long thread.

[sirineou]

Pray tell what does this imply:

Quote

Personally I think that my fiancé getting married to me (I don’t have such a high opinion of my self , just considering the opportunities available to her as a US citizen) is of greater value, than sinsod

Unquote.

She is not a US citizen and even if she gets married she is not. Unless you mean yourself, but what benefits does that give her?

Excuse my lack of knowledge here!!!!!!!!!!!

Dave on the next reply is right.

As far as the benefits of a poor girl from isaan derives from marring an American citizen ( and for that mater a Euro, or Australian or other national)are concern, in my opinion, go far above the sinsod. For instance as soon as she arrives to the US ( we have applied and should be getting her fiancé visa any day now) we will marry in the US and change her status from Visa to permanent resident, with in 2 years she will have her Green card, and with in 5 years apply for citizenship. Get An American passport and the opportunity to travel the world with most countries requiring no visa from the us. Accesses to first rate continuing education, and the opportunity to get a job where she makes more in 3 days than she will make in Thailand in a month. protection under the law. Her family will , over the years receive assistance far greater than the initial sinsod, and access to some of the opportunities available in the rest of the world that are not available to them now. But most of all the opportunity to reach her full potential, Whish I don’t think is available to her in Thailand.

These are some of the benefits, I realize there is also a down side.

Please forgive me for the somewhat superficial attempt to briefly answer your question, I think this is a discussion that could easily start a new and very long thread.

[sbk]

Up to you.... its for show, so most certainly should get it back - this is how it works. Anyone tells you differently then you are being scammed.

So do the parents go into hoc to pay for the wedding....get real Brit....

Have you ever been to a Thai wedding geo? Guests give money. Almost always, it pays for the wedding.

When my (Thai) nephew married a local girl (also Thai) he did pay sin sot. After the wedding my brother-in-law and his wife gave the money from the wedding to the new couple and her parents gave them the sin sot in order to start their married life together.

In poorer families, the money from the guests goes towards paying for the wedding. Or at least, this has been my experience in all of the weddings I have been involved in in Thailand.

[473geo]

Up to you.... its for show, so most certainly should get it back - this is how it works. Anyone tells you differently then you are being scammed.

So do the parents go into hoc to pay for the wedding....get real Brit....

Have you ever been to a Thai wedding geo? Guests give money. Almost always, it pays for the wedding.

When my (Thai) nephew married a local girl (also Thai) he did pay sin sot. After the wedding my brother-in-law and his wife gave the money from the wedding to the new couple and her parents gave them the sin sot in order to start their married life together.

In poorer families, the money from the guests goes towards paying for the wedding. Or at least, this has been my experience in all of the weddings I have been involved in in Thailand.

Ever seen a young Thai counting 60,000 baht of gifts time and time again desperately trying to make it the 75,000 baht to pay for the entertainment......it is a really sad sight.....as you know.....there is no back up plan. Low turn out at weddings and funerals can often result in shortfalls.....although maybe not the weddings you attend...

Edit: just to add also I have heard that the donations are not quite so generous where a farang is concerned.

Edited June 7, 2009 by 473geo

[britmaveric]

Well easy then pay for the wedding costs and make the arrangements yourself. Then the family won't have to go debt and problem solved.

[sbk]

Up to you.... its for show, so most certainly should get it back - this is how it works. Anyone tells you differently then you are being scammed.

So do the parents go into hoc to pay for the wedding....get real Brit....

Have you ever been to a Thai wedding geo? Guests give money. Almost always, it pays for the wedding.

When my (Thai) nephew married a local girl (also Thai) he did pay sin sot. After the wedding my brother-in-law and his wife gave the money from the wedding to the new couple and her parents gave them the sin sot in order to start their married life together.

In poorer families, the money from the guests goes towards paying for the wedding. Or at least, this has been my experience in all of the weddings I have been involved in in Thailand.

Ever seen a young Thai counting 60,000 baht of gifts time and time again desperately trying to make it the 75,000 baht to pay for the entertainment......it is a really sad sight.....as you know.....there is no back up plan. Low turn out at weddings and funerals can often result in shortfalls.....although maybe not the weddings you attend...

Indeed, small weddings consist of around 500 people. My nephew's wedding was 1500. Locals stick together where I live

Brit has good advice, offer to pay for the wedding if paying the sin sot is such a big issue.

[473geo]

So do the parents go into hoc to pay for the wedding....get real Brit....

Have you ever been to a Thai wedding geo? Guests give money. Almost always, it pays for the wedding.

When my (Thai) nephew married a local girl (also Thai) he did pay sin sot. After the wedding my brother-in-law and his wife gave the money from the wedding to the new couple and her parents gave them the sin sot in order to start their married life together.

In poorer families, the money from the guests goes towards paying for the wedding. Or at least, this has been my experience in all of the weddings I have been involved in in Thailand.

Ever seen a young Thai counting 60,000 baht of gifts time and time again desperately trying to make it the 75,000 baht to pay for the entertainment......it is a really sad sight.....as you know.....there is no back up plan. Low turn out at weddings and funerals can often result in shortfalls.....although maybe not the weddings you attend...

Indeed, small weddings consist of around 500 people. My nephew's wedding was 1500. Locals stick together where I live

Brit has good advice, offer to pay for the wedding if paying the sin sot is such a big issue.

Excellent stuff....so now he just has to discuss with the fiance.....boy if he gets it wrong now....

[Chaimai]

Speaking for myself, I'd be taking a very close look at their and my real motives for wanting the marriage to go ahead – in fact, I'd be kicking myself for allowing the subject of marriage to come up before knowing my partner well enough to know I wouldn't have to worry about such a basic issue - because at its core it raises more than a few questions about the strength and nature of the relationship, and how well I know partner(?).

An excellent point and one that should avoid any conflict on either side.

[cognos]

PS. My finance is a beautiful 25 year old, with a University degree, from a poor family in Isaan .

Something of a Freudian slip there, I fancy

you very funny farang Mr Chaimai

[Jungian]

My Thai family sees it as extortion (this is not my opinion it is the opinion of Thai people) they say it is an antiquated practice and the married couple should keep the money to start their new life. Actually when my wife and I got married our gift was 50 Rai of land in Chiang Rai. I too think it is extortion and personally I would refuse to pay and move on (but that's just me).

[sirineou]

First let me start by thanking you for taking the time to answer my Post, and take this opportunity to also thank all the others who replied to my post also, as of now I see over 50 reply’s and obviously cant answer all of them individually, I wish there was some way I could post a universal thanks to all, if there is please advise.

Your reply was thoughtful, to the point and very informative, I appreciate your input and I will certainly take it under advise

Many thanks

[sirineou]

Sorry Mr OP but I'm going to give you my opinion

To pay sinsod or not to pay sinsod is up to you!!!!

If it's a reasonable request, and you can afford it, then pay it

If the request is not reasonable and you can't afford it, then don't

If the girl won't marry if you can't pay, then you know it was only about the money

It really is as simple as that

Excellent reply, absolutely right,

Thank you

[coventry]

coventry...mai pen rai.

Now if I can just interest you in a house for sale in Issan....@*+%$@!$^!!!!!!

In fact I may be having to sell the house I already have, if I care to accept what some 'doom forecasters' write in other threads.

[joesomchai]

just wondering what a hiso thai chines pattaya girl would go for? almost vigin like w no kids.

[Livinginexile]

"Im gonna refute this statement somewhat. the idea of sin sod is for the parents to keep. but yes you are right that in practice many families will decide to give back part or all of the sin sod to the couple (there are also instances where the parents will top up the amount!). but all this depends on the financial ability of the individual family. there may be some families who are poor but still decide to give it back. some might not. the same with the rich.

bottom line is - the choice is up to the parents IF they want to give it back.

so you should offer what you think you really are able to give away. (there may be cases when it IS agreed before hand that they only want X amount, but need 10X amount shown, but the rest will be given back. this however needs to be discussed and made very clear. let your fiance do the talking, you dont make that kind of negotiation directly with the parents)

in chinese culture they infact have a person whose role is to engage in these kinds of negotiations!

so those dating chinese thai, you may be aware of this?"

This statement is absolutely wrong. Sinsot is ONLY about show and nothing more. It is NOT about buying the daughter from the parents but rather to show all and sundry that the groom has financial substance and therefore lives up to the bride’s family status.

The sinsot is MOST DEFINATELY given back to the couple after the ceremony.

[Swelters]

He wants to know the right thing to do, so I will tell him.

He should give them a million baht, on display in purple cellophane with a ribbon at the wedding. Then he should have his wife take back 900,000 and they should put it in a dollar fund for future assistance and emergencies for her family.

Swelters

I should add a couple of footnotes to this advice.

First if you are not too familiar with Thailand be very careful about how you handle large amounts of money. You probably need some very trusted person to guard you and it.

Second, when I say put it in a fund I mean one that is jointly owned with strict joint assent (you and your wife) on withdrawals and no possibility of an unexpected individual withdrawal based on impulse or family pressure. The best explanation for this essential arrrangement is "It is foreign law and custom."

Also an excellent point is made by one correspondent on the matter of negotiation with family. In Thai, as well as Chinese culture the negotiation and request for hand is usually made as a matter of form by a "father" or surrogate thereof. But this is a matter of form, do not rely on this for financial issues, possibilities for misunderstanding are great.

Swelters

Edited June 8, 2009 by Swelters

[hammered]

I married a poor girl from the north of Thailand. No babies, no previous husbands. From a poor but proud all female family. The kind of poor family that would never take hand outs, charity, food they couldnt pay for or even vote buying money. My wife sorted out the the arrangements and I didnt pay anything. The mother-in-law wanted her daughter to be happy and have a better life than her and if her daughter was happy then that was enough. I will add we have chosen to help my wifes mother now she is older even though we are not at all wealthy. She deserves that.

I have heard a few similar stories but not many. Virtually every marriage I have known in a couple of decades has involved money and I have been to loads of marriages both poor and rich. I have seen the money always go back but not necessarily straight away. Sometimes a family may want to hang on a while to see if the son-in-law is actually taking care of their daughter. I have also known the amount to be set very high when the family dont approve of the proposed son-in-law. Nowadays poor or rich people I know often work together to save the money needed if it is exorbitent. Predicting the amount by status etc is actually quite easy when you except the not sure about proposed dude stuff.

[Livinginexile]

"Im gonna refute this statement somewhat. the idea of sin sod is for the parents to keep. but yes you are right that in practice many families will decide to give back part or all of the sin sod to the couple (there are also instances where the parents will top up the amount!). but all this depends on the financial ability of the individual family. there may be some families who are poor but still decide to give it back. some might not. the same with the rich.

bottom line is - the choice is up to the parents IF they want to give it back.

so you should offer what you think you really are able to give away. (there may be cases when it IS agreed before hand that they only want X amount, but need 10X amount shown, but the rest will be given back. this however needs to be discussed and made very clear. let your fiance do the talking, you dont make that kind of negotiation directly with the parents)

in chinese culture they infact have a person whose role is to engage in these kinds of negotiations!

so those dating chinese thai, you may be aware of this?"

This statement is absolutely wrong. Sinsot is ONLY about show and nothing more. It is NOT about buying the daughter from the parents but rather to show all and sundry that the groom has financial substance and therefore lives up to the bride’s family status.

The sinsot is MOST DEFINATELY given back to the couple after the ceremony.

living in exile

Im not disagreeing to come across as knowing better than other people, but I do have to add something in response to your remark about 'buying'

sin sod is not money to BUY anyone. however, one of the original concept why it came about is that daughters traditionally contribute to household work in different ways. (either working in the fields, or house chores, including taking care of parents physically). once she is married off, the parents lose this help. the sin sod is a way of saying, here is my contribution while i cant be here to continue helping you.

to use the term buying is offensive, and it is certainly not something Id imply about thai women, that we need to be bought

also as said, it is traditions, but in practice people adopt different ways of it, and adapt it to suit their circumstances.

At least we agree on one thing MIG.

Paying someone for a wife is offensive, no matter how it is dressed up.

[elektrified]

'Tagaa' thanks for a really good post, I thoroughly enjoyed your well constructed statement. A joy to read. I'll just nip back and read it again.

Superb post Tagaa! Thanks for that.

[elektrified]

My wife is from Bangkok, and there is no need for sinsod, but I am willing to pay the amount to show her family and friends, although we bought two condos after getting married and also have a car. Sinsod for me is culture, I will pay it, and I know I will not get all of it back, as her Mum will do the planning for the party and the Sinsod will pay for that, that is why I stated I will get 80% back.

If you want a Thai wife, accept the culture and be part of it, pay the sinsod, and enjoy life.

There are loads of topics about sinsod here on this site, read some not just the pinned ones and you might understand more, and see that although people pay a lot of sinsod they get their money back.

Utter rubbish, nice to see those who have been or are about to be scammed pass it off as culture.

My wifes family never asked for any sin sot and none was paid.

Then again my wife isnt from darkest Issan, as they say, up to you.

Btw Tagaa, excellent post, pity most will ignore it.

The sinsod defenders are the rarest breed of farangs in Thailand and zealots on TV.

[coventry]

Dowry's were prohibited in the worlds biggest democracy(India) in 1961. I think it's about time Thailand came into the 21st century and followed suit along with the farangs that keep it alive.

Edited June 9, 2009 by coventry