My Partner Will Not Sell!

[tigerbalm]

Yes i see your point.

It might be a shot in the dark and i don't know the sort of cash you are looking for (And i certainly would not ask) but if it is a manageable amount that your partner could come up with, could you not ask him for it and say he can up his share of the Condo from 50% to 50%+ what ever.

I sympathize with your situation if you do a deal with him it will be in his favor but you will probably get what your looking for but have those bitter memories, and if you take it to court it could take a long long time and cost quite a bit, and you need the money now, a court case can be a lengthy process.

i would hate to be in this situation because to be truthful my only option would be to sell at a price favorable to him to get what i wanted.

[simcity]

I still do not agree you need to take a lost.

Is he farang or is he thai trying to get your share for peanuts?

What really happen before with the purchase contract?

If everything is in order, I will go to court, market value hopefully will be the value he need to give you for you to walk away or you to give him for him to walk away !

You have 50% of right in the place, not sure if the utilities are in two names, and where go the rent.

If he has the upper hand with the contract or he is Thai with knowledge you sign something you not award off.

Take what he offer..

[CWMcMurray]

Devi's advocate time...

You both do have a point, but I am now leaning more towards your friends point of view...

It seems to me that even you confirm that the actual value of the properties is roughly 15 mil, but that given the current economic situation you can not get any offers for what the property is actually worth.

From your partner's point of view, it sounds like he is willing to sell, but not for only 60-80% of the actual worth of the property. I would guess that he never though that his gentlemen's agreement included selling the property for signioficantly less than its worth.

So you are trying to force him to sell and take a loss of 20-40% "loss" by selling in a down market. You have also advised, that you also believe that if you wait another year or two it is likely that youcould sell at 15 mil.

Given this, maybe it is not completely unfair for you to take the entire "loss" of the selling price versus actual value of the property because you needs the funds and want to sell in a down market.

Stand by the recomendation below:

May not be exactly fair, but if he is only willing to sell at 15 mil, but you need to sell now then...

His portion of 15 mil would be 7.5 mil

If sold at 12 mil and you take away his 7.5 mil, you would be left with 4.5 mil

If you bough at 7.5 mil then your portion was 3.75 mil

This means that if you "sold" at 4.5 mil you would realize a profit of 750,000 plus the rent you have received.

It may seem remarkably unfair, but if you would be willing to sell "your half" to him at 4.5 mil, then its really the same thing (ish).

Is this acceptable to you? Is this better than taking him to court and trying to get what is fair?

Only you can answer this question...

Very good reply.

Actually it's very easy to see both sides of this story. Yes you partner is out of order for not standing by a gentleman's agreement but at the end of the day it sounds like he isn't that flushed and the thought of selling up whilst the market is depressed must be difficult for him.

[rixalex]

Devi's advocate time...

You both do have a point, but I am now leaning more towards your friends point of view...

It seems to me that even you confirm that the actual value of the properties is roughly 15 mil, but that given the current economic situation you can not get any offers for what the property is actually worth.

From your partner's point of view, it sounds like he is willing to sell, but not for only 60-80% of the actual worth of the property. I would guess that he never though that his gentlemen's agreement included selling the property for signioficantly less than its worth.

So you are trying to force him to sell and take a loss of 20-40% "loss" by selling in a down market. You have also advised, that you also believe that if you wait another year or two it is likely that youcould sell at 15 mil.

Given this, maybe it is not completely unfair for you to take the entire "loss" of the selling price versus actual value of the property because you needs the funds and want to sell in a down market.

Well put again.

I know we all like to think of ourselves as being honorable and men of our word, but at the end of the day we all have to take care of our own financial future's. Noone else, not even a best mate is going to bail us out if we don't have enough funds stashed away in later life for a decent standard of living.

Therefore if selling right now and taking a loss of a few million baht each is seriously going to impact on your partner's future plans, i can fully understand him trying to get you to delay the sell until the market has improved. And truth be told, I think we'd all do the same, gentleman's agreement or not.

[flying]

The reason he gives me for not wanting to sell is that he thinks it is not a good time to sell and that if we wait another year or two we will get closer to 15 mil and not 10 that we could get now.

He is right of course but the fact is I need to sell.

He is right? Who guarantee's that?

This is why partnerships suck.

There is no clear winner in this situation.

You need the $$$ but he is willing to wait for...maybe more.

What if this is the beginning of a 10 year depression?

Could also be the beginning of a 10 year boom I guess.( I know not likely )

In any case if your strapped the recommendation put forth by CWMcMurray

is the logical thing to do.

Like you said money changes everything...Live & learn but the scenario CW gave you at least you still see a profit.

Good Luck

[Bobsyouruncle]

The reason he gives me for not wanting to sell is that he thinks it is not a good time to sell and that if we wait another year or two we will get closer to 15 mil and not 10 that we could get now.

He is right of course but the fact is I need to sell.

He is right? Who guarantee's that?

This is why partnerships suck.

There is no clear winner in this situation.

You need the $$$ but he is willing to wait for...maybe more.

What if this is the beginning of a 10 year depression?

Could also be the beginning of a 10 year boom I guess.( I know not likely )

In any case if your strapped the recommendation put forth by CWMcMurray

is the logical thing to do.

Like you said money changes everything...Live & learn but the scenario CW gave you at least you still see a profit.

Good Luck

I like CWMcMurray's recommendation too and I think it going to be the only way out for me.

After doing just about all the leg work involved in buying, fitting out and marketing our apartment it is going to hurt like hel_l to see him walk away with far more than I will get .

[harrry]

The value of the property is what you can get for it now. What you may or may not get is not relevant. Put an add for your share of the condo in a public publication. Advise him that you have done this and offer him first offer.

Edited June 25, 2009 by harrry

[LaoPo]

Do you know his reason for actually not wanting to sell?

1. The reason he gives me for not wanting to sell is that he thinks it is not a good time to sell

2. and that if we wait another year or two we will get closer to 15 mil and not 10 that we could get now.

3. He is right of course but the fact is I need to sell.

1. He's correct; it IS a bad time to sell real estate; all over the world.

2. He's WRONG because both of you will not get (closer to) 15 million in one or two years; the real estate prices, worldwide and also in BKK, will fall further and further! I doubt very much if you can get even 10 Million in 2 years; more likely much lower!

3. He's wrong.

4. If I were you (and knowing that you invested Baht 3,75 Million for your share and made quite some profit after the investment by renting it out) I would settle for an amount between 4 and 5 Million for your share (IF you can get that much).

5. YOU need the money NOW; you better take any share as soon as possible because I fear that the longer you wait...the more trouble you will have selling.

Sorry, but it seems that you need the money but you're still holding onto "old" prices. It wouldn't surprise me if in 6 months or 1 year from now it will be very difficult to rent out your appartment because of the flood of appartments coming onto the market....

Then what ?

My advise: settle ASAP

LaoPo

[pkrv]

An interesting one.

You have said you are Auz based. Please remember the exchange rate issue - I don't know when you bought but some basic stastics are here:

http://www.advfn.com/quote_Australian-Doll_FX_AUDTHB.html

You may not be as out of pocket as you thought. Are you still recieving a share of the rent? This may be the best strategy to continue.

For me being UK based, transfers for our condo were at between 75 and 68. GBPTHB= now 55.4 important to think about this stuff. Virtually a 50% increase in value in exchange rate movement alone.

Oh I think you are on the wrong forum - This should be real estate. housing and land ownership - Don't know if the mods have noticed

Edited June 25, 2009 by pkrv

[torrenova]

The only thing to do is to sell but in a depressed market, the value is exactly that, the market value, not what the other guy thinks it is, was or will be worth. What the 2nd partner is discounting is that all properties have gone down and if you get 20% less than the peak, then all other properties are also 20% down so in effect, he doesn't lose anything if he reinvests in another condo.

Say previous was 15m, now 12m, his share 6m

Another condo was 7.5m, now 6m, he can buy that one 100%

If you really need cash quickly then you're going to have to take a hit. If you sell at 12m and he keeps 1m extra then you get 5.5m with him getting 6.5m

If he won't help at all then you have to do one of two things. Either you go down the Dale Carnegie route and find something to offer him or similar or you have to be prepared to really get dirty. Going to court won't help you because of the time it takes.

[thaiwanderer]

My question is; can I force him to sell and except market value through a Thai court?

IMHO yes you can. In practical terms your partnership is at an end already.

A Thai court will take time, cost money and you are then selling under a court order.

You need money now.

Offer him the lowest amount you can/want to take for your share now discounted rather than the hassle of court. Only you can decide what that figure is.

Turn his argument on him - if he is so sure what it will be worth in the near future then he will only be increasing his profits by buying you out - you are doing him a favour.

If not, Thai court is only real option unless you want to play really dirty.

(Not sure what an Austrailian court could do about it?)

good luck

[harrry]

If I recall my very old Bussiness Law 101 in ustralia a partnership can be disolved by either party and the assets must be sold and divided

[Latindancer]

I had a horrid time a few short years ago with going to court. I won in the magistrates' court. Then the other party appealed to a higher court and won. Then I went to the Supreme Court and he won again. If I learned anything, it was to keep your relations with this person on a nice, straightfoward level for as long as possible. Show your hand.....tell him you really need the money, and tell him which options you have. But if you mention "court", make it clear to him that it is not personal......it's just your circumstances which are dictating this. Once it gets personal, people get pig-headed and dig their heels in.....then you can't reason with them at all.

I can't stress enough the need to try to stop things getting nasty for as long as possible. However you can still show that you are strong, not weak !

A lot of the advice offered by other members here was good.....

[rinpoche]

Only goes to show my Dad was right when i was young he told me "Trust no one" and"buy as much land as you can,they arnt making it any more"

Obviously he has never been to Dubai then.....

why ,are people more trustworthy in Dubai?

No, but they keep making more land.

[Bobsyouruncle]

I had a horrid time a few short years ago with going to court. I won in the magistrates' court. Then the other party appealed to a higher court and won. Then I went to the Supreme Court and he won again. If I learned anything, it was to keep your relations with this person on a nice, straightfoward level for as long as possible. Show your hand.....tell him you really need the money, and tell him which options you have. But if you mention "court", make it clear to him that it is not personal......it's just your circumstances which are dictating this. Once it gets personal, people get pig-headed and dig their heels in.....then you can't reason with them at all.

I can't stress enough the need to try to stop things getting nasty for as long as possible. However you can still show that you are strong, not weak !

A lot of the advice offered by other members here was good.....

Good post Latindancer, point noted.

I'm taking the softly softly aproach but if nothing progresses by the end of the year I will need to get tough with him.

Thanks for the post.

[LivinLOS]

Do you know his reason for actually not wanting to sell?

The reason he gives me for not wanting to sell is that he thinks it is not a good time to sell and that if we wait another year or two we will get closer to 15 mil and not 10 that we could get now.

He is right of course but the fact is I need to sell.

Personally I see the other guys side more than yours.. Why should he take a 2.5 mil haircut because your out of cash..

Its there, its providing you both a rental return, hes just maximising his investment.

[trogers]

Same as those who invested in piles of sand in Dubai, your partner and you probably made a gentleman's agreement with only visions of 'prices can only go up', without consideration of a possible downturn.

Bite the bullet and give him his half of the Bt15m.

[Wildliferescue]

If you have both names on the Chanoth and have no other written agreement I see no other way than to go to the civil court. Gentlemen agreements do not count in a Thai court.

A case like this should be finalized quite fast in civil court.

[trogers]

If you have both names on the Chanoth and have no other written agreement I see no other way than to go to the civil court. Gentlemen agreements do not count in a Thai court.

A case like this should be finalized quite fast in civil court.

About 5-7 years...and loads of legal fees...

[lioness]

True story

I was once in a similar situation, but part owning a caravan park, motel and roadhouse in the Northern Territory of Australia. My business partner and I had a similar verbal agreement. Anyhow I wanted to sell, he did not, nor would he refinace himself and buy me out.

He was the most racist person I have ever met, so just to ark him up and get things underway I approached 5 aboriginal communities to sell my 50% to. At that stage the government was handing out money to communities for just about anything and hence I ended up with 2 prospective buyers. When I put this to him, he went berserk, even sought legal advice as he said I couldn't do it. But I could of course, it was my 50%, it must have been the quickest refinace in history.

Find someone he doesn't like and sell your share to them.

[trogers]

True story

I was once in a similar situation, but part owning a caravan park, motel and roadhouse in the Northern Territory of Australia. My business partner and I had a similar verbal agreement. Anyhow I wanted to sell, he did not, nor would he refinace himself and buy me out.

He was the most racist person I have ever met, so just to ark him up and get things underway I approached 5 aboriginal communities to sell my 50% to. At that stage the government was handing out money to communities for just about anything and hence I ended up with 2 prospective buyers. When I put this to him, he went berserk, even sought legal advice as he said I couldn't do it. But I could of course, it was my 50%, it must have been the quickest refinace in history.

Find someone he doesn't like and sell your share to them.

Not as easy in Thailand. Both co-owners have to sign the title transfer document at the land office. One signature will not do, unless it is ordered by a civil court.

[Kadafi]

Unless the two of you were family, going into this sort of arrangement would always present itself with risk. I can understand why this moment in time the other guy would find it hard to come up with 5-6 million baht to just pay you out with 3 months notice. Also with his thought of mind that he would be selling at 3-5 million baht less than a year ago because you suddenly need the money now, try and raise some funds elsewhere or come to an agreement that is more rewarding for him and not just yourself....

[gregb]

I'm confused. You say he is in no position to buy you out, but at the same time you say you are currently generating rental income from the unit??? That can't happen simultaneously.

Seems to me there is a simple solution. He buys your share at whatever you agree to, you carry paper on the loan, and the rental income (which is now 100% his) is used to pay back the loan he took from you to purchase your half of the property. All simple, clean and easy. If he stops making his payments and the relationship spirals out of control, you foreclose on the condo, sell it, take out whatever is unpaid on your loan plus court and sales costs and he gets whatever is left.

All you need to do is agree on a selling price and reasonable interest rate, and then register the mortgage on the chanote at the Thai land office. He's getting a great deal on your discounted half if he truly believes the condo is worth 15 mil.

Expecting the other party to be able to come up with 7.5 million baht to buy your share in cash was never reasonable, gentlemen's agreement or not. If you want him to buy you out, you have to loan him the money. Simple as that.

[CWMcMurray]

I thin the problem is that he needs a large lump sum for something.

If my understanding is correct, he can not aford to "loan" the other guy the funds to buy him out.

The other option may be for the partner who doesn't want to sell the property to agree to take out a mortgage in the amount needed to buy out his partner and pay that back with the rent money.

If the mortgage payment could be structured in a way to ensure that the amount was only 50% of the rent received, he could finance a "buy out" without taking any loss on his rental income, although I am not sure if the partner would be willing to do so.

Edited December 11, 2009 by CWMcMurray

[Stumbo]

True story

I was once in a similar situation, but part owning a caravan park, motel and roadhouse in the Northern Territory of Australia. My business partner and I had a similar verbal agreement. Anyhow I wanted to sell, he did not, nor would he refinace himself and buy me out.

He was the most racist person I have ever met, so just to ark him up and get things underway I approached 5 aboriginal communities to sell my 50% to. At that stage the government was handing out money to communities for just about anything and hence I ended up with 2 prospective buyers. When I put this to him, he went berserk, even sought legal advice as he said I couldn't do it. But I could of course, it was my 50%, it must have been the quickest refinace in history.

Find someone he doesn't like and sell your share to them.

[Stumbo]

I'm confused. You say he is in no position to buy you out, but at the same time you say you are currently generating rental income from the unit??? That can't happen simultaneously.

Seems to me there is a simple solution. He buys your share at whatever you agree to, you carry paper on the loan, and the rental income (which is now 100% his) is used to pay back the loan he took from you to purchase your half of the property. All simple, clean and easy. If he stops making his payments and the relationship spirals out of control, you foreclose on the condo, sell it, take out whatever is unpaid on your loan plus court and sales costs and he gets whatever is left.

All you need to do is agree on a selling price and reasonable interest rate, and then register the mortgage on the chanote at the Thai land office. He's getting a great deal on your discounted half if he truly believes the condo is worth 15 mil.

Expecting the other party to be able to come up with 7.5 million baht to buy your share in cash was never reasonable, gentlemen's agreement or not. If you want him to buy you out, you have to loan him the money. Simple as that.

I think this is a good start to a solution and shows some imagination and good will, also offer to reverse the process for him so all is equal.

[powderpuff]

Better get something in writing pretty quick.

A condo, a Ferrari -, an Audi TT is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Not a penny more. Pie in the sky. I'm with Lao Pao. Maybe it's worth what a bank is willing to loan on it. You are up $hit creek.