After 3 Months Of Waiting We Receive A Refusal On A Technicality

[pingit]

[

I have carefully prepared everything.Written a proffesioal type letter, Got him 6 months bank statements from 2 different accounts, printed them and took them to the bank to stamp sign and date them, a detailed income expenditure sheet, photos of every room in my house with a detailed description, evidence showing my house is a businss expenditure, as is the car... deails of money I have sitting in a pension I used to run, told him Im about to start a life insurance policy for Oa and Ben, ( even tho I've no yet got the certificate ) , also called the council to check the house wont be over crowded when we live there, ( over crowding rules and stuff ), and will give him their letter when i get it.[/qoute]

Faxed it all this morning but it was out of office hours in bangkok, so was planning to do it again to the 2 fax numbers i've got. then I'll send him the lot by recorded delivery so he's got it all in hard copy. I put the APET number on every sheet. I just had a queiry about APET numbers. do they usually look like this xxxx/xx/xxxxxx/x or like this xxxxxx/xxxxxx/x as I seem to have it written both ways???

might be nit picking but dont want them to chuck the fax on a missing " / " .. if anyone knows I would really appreciate it !

good luck to us all ! after this is over lets get to the pub and have a few suds !!

Pingit you say your house as a business expenditure, is it a flat above your resturant ??

Why do you mention a car as i hope you do not live in it . . . . .

Bank statments, are these business account statements or personal as he says he is happy you have employment but needs to see personal records for you

Pension can only be used on retirement so is not required unless you are ready to retire . . . .

Insurance policy you have not got is no evidence of support now . . . .

your partner tried to claim taxcredits while she was on a tourist visa tells me your salary is low . . . . . .

This is your second chance and my advice is to get some professional help or you will be blaming the ECO again

Stick with facts regarding what he wants

The number is APET/date you applied/xxxxxxxxxx/x

Good luck and again get some PROFESSIONAL help

Hi,

I just want to start this by saying that, I was wrong to every blame the ECO on this. Hold my hand up. I have learnt a great deal about the process of visa applications over the last few weeks. Dare I say it, I was a bit niave and had beleived that interiews were a part of every settlement visa. This was were I thought we would discuss any issues with the application. Obviously wrong. Thats why I had said " why no interview? "

After what I have learnt, I have done just that borodave. Organised all the documents needed to show that I have more than adequate means and accommodation ( which is next door to my business ). My salary is not low borodave. In fact I think the tax credits are given to many households with decent salaries. I never even thought about it at the time. Over 1 year ago it was my Mother who suggsted the tax credits just as an extra fund to go into my sons trust fund. My son is over 1 years old now, so at the time I never thought anything of it, as we were not even near the stage of applying for a visa. I had no idea that this was not allowed, and off course we got a letter saying we are not eligable for them. It certainly is not anything I require to have, and if it wasn't for his doting Grandmother I would never have given it a thought.

Anyhow I have prepared alot and DHL picked it up today to send to Bangkok. I have tried to show our case much more clearly to give the ECO or ECM a clearer picture of our life. Sorry again for being naive about the call for info .

well here goes...

[7by7]

Pingit,

You have nothing to apologise for; we've all, well most of us, been there and made similar mistakes to those you have and have, hopefully, learnt from the experience.

By posting about it here you may very well have saved someone else from falling into the same trap. The moral being that one should never make assumptions and always research and then prepare thoroughly.

All the best, I hope your wife and child are with you soon.

[borodave]

well done pingit

It takes a man to admit his mistake, and even greater to learn from them.

Good luck mate and hope all works out, if the ECM deems you have a case (he doesnt want it to go all the way) he will overturn the refusal.

interviews are a thing of the past as there were time consuming.

best regards and keep us informed as your case can help someone else, the same way other cases on here have helped you.

Boro Dave

[Tango7]

Hi,

just new to this forum. I have been in Thailand since March with my spouse and our 1 year old son. We met in the UK while my spouse was doing her masters degree around 5 years ago. After her studies and working for a University in Thailand for a couple years, she received a 2 years visiting visa, and we travelled always together back and forward from UK to Thailand. Our son was actually born in Thailand and now has dual citizenship , Thai and UK.

We travelled back to Thailand in March 09 to apply for her settlement visa. We applied on 19th March, and on the 19th June we got the reply that it was refused ! There was NO interview or ANY request for further documents, however the reason the ECO put down was that we hadn't adequately shown accommodation and maintenance. I have my own restaurant for the last 7 years, so they had my accounts, and also the lease for our house is in both our names, and also the council tax is in both our names. We have been basically living in the UK for the last 2 years together as she had that 2 years visitors visa.

My point is that if the ECO had some issues he might have requested further documents or an interview? Now for the first time in over 2 years I have had to return alone and leave my fiance and son in Chiang Mai ! Surely rather than split a family up the ECO should have simply made a phone call to us in Chiang Mai. I was on the phone to them alot while we all waited there for 3 months on this terrible decision!

tomorrow I have an appointment with my MP and also have left a message on the ECM's voicemail. Have sent them further emails with more bank statements showing my ability to support my family, and also practically every member of my family has written an email to them supporting all my evidence. I really feel this is so much a case of being unfairly treated. The ECO had lots of info on us, my house papers, work papers, accounts, 1 month bank statements, my divorce papers translated all originals and certified... my sons birth certificate , photo's, emails over the last 5 years, my spouses history as a lecturer, her good previous visa history, she even had a government passport ( being a government official in a University ) . For the sake of 1, yes 1, more document that would keep my family together this ECO decided not to ask for it ! I know for a fact that it is more common for them to ask for further information after someone has submitted their application, than not to. Why not ask for this 1 document to clear this case up??

To top it all off I personally have a sponsors license issued by the Home Office in the UK. This is a license a business needs to apply for work permits. you have to prove yourself as a decent sponsor for any staff you might want to employ. So the Home Office was Ok with it why is this ECO not?

Any thoughts??? advice anyone might have would be really appreciated... thanks

Never heard of a two year visitor visa. Sounds like an odd one to give. After all, a settlement visa is only two years.

[7by7]

Visit visas can be valid for 6 months, 1, 2, 5 or 10 years.

However, the holder can only spend a maximum of 6 months in the UK on any one visit and generally speaking cannot spend more than 6 months out of any 12 in the UK.

Unless one has already built up a history of regular travel to the UK, it is extremely unlikely that an application for anything other than 6 months would be granted.

[Electra]

[

7by7 & Electra

I feel by following other topics from you both they is a glint of anger against one another

Please keep your personal grievances from this topic and focus on both just given advice to the person.

If you think a person is given wrong advice then just explain your advice and reason why you think wrong, and leave it up to the person you are given the advice to come to his/her own conclusion.

Electra I do feel that the answers that 7by7 gives are short and to the point and do not deserve criticizing in this way.

And what on earth makes you think I could give a flying toss about what you say?

I have expressed a legitimate view and in accordance with forum rules.

Are a closet moderator?

[borodave]

[And what on earth makes you think I could give a flying toss about what you say?

I have expressed a legitimate view and in accordance with forum rules.

Are a closet moderator?

You give your view yes and I give my view, so take it like a half decent professional Or am I not entitled to my opinion.

I have expressed a legitimate view and in accordance with forum rules.

Are a closet moderator?

[Boo]

Everyone can take a chill pill, I am a moderator & will give the next person who starts a posting holiday. Keep the sniping off this section of the forum.

[malcolminthemiddle]

Don't you have to be married to get a Settlement Visa?

[TickTock]

Pingit, I may have missed this but have you also filled in your appeal document (receive this with the Entrance Clearance Refusal Notice) with your other documents?

[pingit]

Pingit, I may have missed this but have you also filled in your appeal document (receive this with the Entrance Clearance Refusal Notice) with your other documents?

Yes,

the appeal form is almost ready to go. The deadline for that is not until the 14th july... I just want to try and get this overturned before that. i spoke to someone in the visa section yesterday and he said if i have given more evidence that shows clearly our lifestyle, then they will look at it and overturn it.

whats quiker guys ;

doing an appeal, or, just submitting a fresh settlement visa application.

someone asked if you need to be married to apply for settlement, well no you dont. you can apply for an un-married visa too. You will need to prove your relationship tho.

jay

[theoldgit]

whats quiker guys ;

doing an appeal, or, just submitting a fresh settlement visa application.

If you have spoken to an ECO and they have indicated they will look at further evidence then it seems that they might consider it without a further application, I think that's what you are saying, otherwise they wouldn't indicate they could overturn the initial decision. Nobody likes having their decisions overturned.

I would submit the additional evidence, but have your appeal ready to go in before the deadline.

[Electra]

Undoubtedly, the quickest route to the outcome you would wish, in the event your further representations should fail, would be to submit a fresh application. Appeals can take on average about 6 months to be heard.

Without wishing to sound too cynical, the current regime in applying the rules in their current manner are generating revenue at an increased rate. Previously, if an application had undoubted merit but lacked some document or other the ECO would postpone a decision until it was submitted.Today, he is under instructions to refuse regardless. Many refusals worldwide come within this category and invariably the applicant is rewarded with success second time around. A case in point: a work permit dependant is refused because he failed to provide evidence of his marriage to the work permit holder. Reasonable decision? Possibly, but when said applicant had already been granted 2 previous visit visas to travel with his wife one does really begin to wonder whether it is bureaucratic avarice or just plain stupidity at the root of it all.

[7by7]

A case in point: a work permit dependant is refused because he failed to provide evidence of his marriage to the work permit holder. Reasonable decision? Possibly, but when said applicant had already been granted 2 previous visit visas to travel with his wife one does really begin to wonder whether it is bureaucratic avarice or just plain stupidity at the root of it all.

Two people travelling as visitors to the UK together do not need to show a relationship because they do not need to be married to each other, or be related in any way. A work permit dependant does need to show a relevant relationship to the work permit holder.

The immigration rules, for at least the last 9 years I have been taking an interest, have always said that the onus is on the applicant to provide all the necessary evidence to support their application; as I found out when my wife was refused her first visit application 9 years ago due to missing documents. No offer to delay the decision until we could get them, just a flat refusal (we couldn't even appeal as we were not yet married at the time).

ECOs are not, and as far as I'm aware never have been, obliged to chase after missing documents, and whether they do so or not depends, IMHO, on how many documents are missing, the ease of obtaining them and how busy the visa section is at the time.

A trawl through some posts from late last year, when they were considerably less busy, will show that ECOs were contacting some applicants to ask for missing documents and then granting the visa once they had seen them.

I am certainly no fan of this government's policy regarding fees for visas etc, but to say that ECOs have been instructed to 'refuse regardless' in such cases in order to generate more revenue is bordering on paranoia!

[dbrenn]

I think your experience is a lesson to all, ensure you have covered everything without overwhelming the ECO with too many documents.

There is no problem overwhelming an immigration official with supporting evidence - the OP should provide as much supporting evidence as he possible can - everything

[pingit]

A case in point: a work permit dependant is refused because he failed to provide evidence of his marriage to the work permit holder. Reasonable decision? Possibly, but when said applicant had already been granted 2 previous visit visas to travel with his wife one does really begin to wonder whether it is bureaucratic avarice or just plain stupidity at the root of it all.

Two people travelling as visitors to the UK together do not need to show a relationship because they do not need to be married to each other, or be related in any way. A work permit dependant does need to show a relevant relationship to the work permit holder.

The immigration rules, for at least the last 9 years I have been taking an interest, have always said that the onus is on the applicant to provide all the necessary evidence to support their application; as I found out when my wife was refused her first visit application 9 years ago due to missing documents. No offer to delay the decision until we could get them, just a flat refusal (we couldn't even appeal as we were not yet married at the time).

ECOs are not, and as far as I'm aware never have been, obliged to chase after missing documents, and whether they do so or not depends, IMHO, on how many documents are missing, the ease of obtaining them and how busy the visa section is at the time.

A trawl through some posts from late last year, when they were considerably less busy, will show that ECOs were contacting some applicants to ask for missing documents and then granting the visa once they had seen them.

I am certainly no fan of this government's policy regarding fees for visas etc, but to say that ECOs have been instructed to 'refuse regardless' in such cases in order to generate more revenue is bordering on paranoia!

We got a call today from the Embassy!!

Thought it was going to be the good news we have been waiting waiting waiting for. Actually they just called to ask us not to send faxes 2 times ... I had sent the first one out of office hours, so waited up to send it when they were open. turns out they got both... they then said we just have to wait for ECO or Gerry Grant to look at it.

nerves are twitching now ...

[Maizefarmer]

Not withstanding variations in how members have intepreted what the ECO wants (and like most gov departments they are famously good with goobbledegook), I can't help but think its all been a bit petty ont he part of the ECO ......

I don't know what the application rate in Thailand is, but for India the FCO is processing something like 4000plus applications per day - yes per day. On a TV program some months back in the UK (something about UK border agency) it showed an ECO, or some similar positioned embassy staff member rattling away through interviews with applicants. Okay, so they are very busy ( at all embassies - and more so in the summer months for sure), but if they have the time to put aside to interview however many applicants it is they decide need to be interviewed, couldn't an interview have been granted in this case - or as said earlier, a phonecall be made?

I think the OP's point is not so much that the application was rejected, but that it was a rejection essentially because some docs were missing - which will in any event have to be pointed out to the OP/applicant, and will in any event then have to be presented and considered i.e. in the overall time scheme of things, if the issue is really all about "time" - the embassy hasn't really saved any time at all, has it?

A case of been petty?

[Electra]

The vast majority of applications are now, as a matter of course, considered on papers alone. UKBA instructions to posts are quite clear in that decisions should only be deferred in exceptional circumstances to enable further documents to be produced, otherwise a refusal should be considered. However, and this is the rub, there is a caveat in that where ECOs are minded to grant ( e.g. because of a history of compliance etc. ) if the document had been made available then they should resolve the application without sight of it. Many do not and it doesn't need an Einstein to conclude why not but only the terminally stupid or naive would seek to deny the reality.

I've got my fingers crossed for you Pingit.

[7by7]

The vast majority of applications are now, as a matter of course, considered on papers alone. UKBA instructions to posts are quite clear in that decisions should only be deferred in exceptional circumstances to enable further documents to be produced, otherwise a refusal should be considered. However, and this is the rub, there is a caveat in that where ECOs are minded to grant ( e.g. because of a history of compliance etc. ) if the document had been made available then they should resolve the application without sight of it.

Indeed, as anyone who has read the entry clearance guidance will know.

However, I fail to see how it is relevant in this case. The ECO was obviously not minded to grant as there was insufficient financial evidence; one bank statement is not enough!

Yes, Pingit's wife has travelled to the UK before; as a visitor. Based upon the information provided by Pingit, her last application was at least 2 years ago.

A lot can happen in 2 years, and just because they had sufficient finances for a visit 2 years ago does not mean that that Pingit has sufficient finances to support his family now, when they are coming to live. To make a judgement the ECO needed to see his current financial position.

Many do not and it doesn't need an Einstein to conclude why not but only the terminally stupid or naive would seek to deny the reality.

What would that reality be, then? Surely you do not mean the reality is your absurd suggestion earlier that this is due to a cynical revenue raising plot by the government?

I've got my fingers crossed for you Pingit.

As have we all.

[Electra]

The constraints of the forum and my position prevent me from replying substantively to what passes for your points.

Presumably, the other forum in the UK has lost its attraction?

I post honestly and with a fair degree of expertise generated by knowledge of the actualite whereas you have none beyond what an interested lay observer may possess. I do not wish to detract from your contribution which is welcome but sometimes you do over reach yourself and make statements that in truth most who are professionally involved might find amusing if they were not so misguided.

Your forte is to interpret what some find difficult to understand. That is a good thing and in the absence of another poster and erstwhile moderator probably necessary for the forum to retain the value it once had.

[7by7]

You have expressed your opinion, I have expressed mine.

You have made certain absurd allegations which I have asked you to clarify.

You have again claimed professional expertise, yet refuse to say what this is.

Instead you post the above.

Q.E.D.

[pingit]

You have expressed your opinion, I have expressed mine.

You have made certain absurd allegations which I have asked you to clarify.

You have again claimed professional expertise, yet refuse to say what this is.

Instead you post the above.

Q.E.D.

7by7

just need to correct you on something. Her last visa was not 2 years ago, it has just ran out this April. Unless of course you are meaning 2 years ago when which she applied... which you probably are...

just want to clarify that she actually has had some sort of visa running at all ( or very nearly most ) times for the last 5 years... For me that is a good history, but like you said... needs need to be met and I didn't show enough info, in the mind set that we would be asked for an interview... hmmmmm kicking myself now....

[7by7]

7by7

just need to correct you on something. Her last visa was not 2 years ago, it has just ran out this April. Unless of course you are meaning 2 years ago when which she applied... which you probably are..

Yes, I mean that it was 2 years since she last applied.

Unfortunately, as you found out to your cost, qualifying for a visit visa does not mean that one automatically qualifies for a settlement visa; although obviously it helps. One still has to show that all the criteria for the visa applied for are met.

Interviews used to be far more common, although they have never interviewed all applicants. These days, as Electra says, they try to decide as many applications as possible on the paper work alone.

[micky44]

This bickering between the two of you is getting a little bit boring and detracting from the original post, can we put an end to it please,

[LivinginKata]

This bickering between the two of you is getting a little bit boring and detracting from the original post, can we put an end to it please,

I agree, and have removed some posts and edited out flames in other posts. Let's keep this topic civil and on track. Thank you.

[Mossfinn]

This bickering between the two of you is getting a little bit boring and detracting from the original post, can we put an end to it please,

This bears no comparison to the flame wars of Atlastaname/Silomfan/GU22 & last but not least good ole Toppers, of two tears ago,

[micky44]

This bickering between the two of you is getting a little bit boring and detracting from the original post, can we put an end to it please,

This bears no comparison to the flame wars of Atlastaname/Silomfan/GU22 & last but not least good ole Toppers, of two tears ago,

Please do;nt put any more wood on the fire

[7by7]

This bickering between the two of you is getting a little bit boring and detracting from the original post, can we put an end to it please,

I agree, and have removed some posts and edited out flames in other posts. Let's keep this topic civil and on track. Thank you.

I apologise for my part in this 'flame war.'

When I post, my aim is to simply to provide the best information I can to enable those who may read my posts to proceed toward a successful conclusion. Some of what I post, here and elsewhere, is fact gleaned from official sources, some is based upon my personal experience, some is information passed to or read by me from others and the rest is opinion based upon a combination of these.

I make no claim to any from of professional qualification or inside information, and I hope I usually avoid belittling those who disagree with me. If someone disagrees with me then I will explain the reasoning behind my opinion, and hope that they are willing to do the same. Indeed, I can think of several instances where another member and I have agreed to differ. If I am shown to be in error then I will accept that.

To be honest, I don't really know why I do this; probably a desire to help others as I was once helped. If members feel that my posts are unwelcome then I will cease.

Once again, my apologies to all for allowing myself to be drawn into an idiotic exchange of childish insults.

[Electra]

Oh happy days!

Wasn't GU 22 that refugee from another forum that Scouser had to curtail lest his over bearing priggishness and adulation for the British Embassy visa staff made everyone defecate in their pants and puke uncontrollably? I rather think he was a woman and an ugly one at that.

Archiving is actually quite interesting and there is a mine of information there, if only folk took the trouble to excavate.

That Atlastaname/Silomfan was certainly a piece of work and quite possibly a homosexual.

[Mossfinn]

To be honest, I don't really know why I do this; probably a desire to help others as I was once helped. If members feel that my posts are unwelcome then I will cease.

Once again, my apologies to all for allowing myself to be drawn into an idiotic exchange of childish insults.

The trouble has always been the initiation, or return of fire against myself, the above mentioned characters and any number of others, that has always detracted and diminished, not only your own post but others who have contributed and it all gets diluted in the flame war that ensues.

Leave that to the Trolls that impregnate the site, answer the pleas for help with relevant responses and in cricketing analogy anything wide of the off stump leave it be, it serves no purpose to try and crack it for four only to nick it and get caught in the awaiting slips.

It is your choice to help, it is also your choice to get involved in pointless rucks and mauls to mix my sporting analogies, I wonder which you get most pleasure from?

Helping people, or muddying the waters in a fruitless case of proving a point?

Edited July 4, 2009 by Mossfinn