British Couple Fights Bangkok Airport Extortionists

[CRUNCHER]

The picture on my computer is not that good. It looks to me that when they are both on the right side of display shelves the man picks up a wallet with his right hand and transfers it to his left hand. He then puts it back in his right hand and just before the woman moves to left side of the shelves he slips it in her left hand. by this time the woman seems to have put back al the wallets she picked up, but as she comes round to the left side she clearly has a wallet in her left hand. She then seems to put a wallet into her shoulder bag and walk out.

Perhaps someone who gets a better picture on their computer can say if I am right or wrong.

Notice also how the man waits for the woman to arrive before picking up any wallets. They then both pick up and put down several wallets without really looking at them, presumably to mislead any staff who are watching. As a layman I would say they are guilty, that it was well planned and that they had probably done it before. There seems plenty of practice in their actions.

I will say on the CCTV footage alone a good lawyer might raise some doubt at a trial. If the King Power story about them changing clothes, sitting at different seat and the mans going to the toilet where the wallet was found provides a good deal of circumstantial eveidence. In a set up someone would have"seen" him dropping the wallet into the rubbish bin.

As to it being the same couple, again my computer is not helpful. But seeing them together I do not have much doubt it is them. Again at a trial a good lawyer might raise doubts.

As an aside, I hope the newspapers that published one side of the story will nopw print the other side.

I have some experience in dealing with CCTV footage for this sort of thing. Problem is my current computer is not top of the range and add to that loss of quality for internet postings and a lack of a facility to isolate and enhance individual frames means I have to draw inferences that I cannot clearly see. It is necessary to review something like this dozens of times, which I have not done. Each time you pick up something new and then review it several times to see what it means. I have viewed it a few more times since my above post to try and analise small points. The following are of some note:-

1. When they enter the shop they act as if they do not know each other, but a review of the whole suggests they are coneted.

2. They are both holding something in their left hands which obscures what they doing.

3.Ingram in fact puts his right hand to his left hand twice, possibly palming two wallets.

4.When the woman moves from the right to the left she appears to be holding a wallet, but in fact it is two. She puts one down on the shelf and is still holding one.

5. Ingram, at the end of the footage, appears to be attempting to distract staff.

The more times I look at this, and I still need to see it more, the more I am convinced that these two are an experienced pair of shoplifters. they even had their escape plan - it just didn't work.

Edited July 4, 2009 by CRUNCHER

[Datsun240Z]

Even it it was them, it shows the country is not ready for democracy. Paying 8000 doesn't make sence at all.

[loong]

I note that the video of the alleged wallet theft is much lower quality than the other video.

It certainly does look like a wallet was stolen, but the identity of the thieves? Not very clear at all.

Most flash videos posted on the internet are very clear, so I can't imagine that the video reviewed by security staff was much clearer than what we are seeing. It would have been good if King Power had included a high definition close up still frame of their faces.

I find it amazing that security staff were able to search a busy airport and identify the couple after only seeing the CCTV footage. I certainly couldn't! Especially if they are wearing different clothes.

Also why was the woman detained at the table by the airport tourist police and yet the man was allowed to leave? If he was a suspect surely he would have also been detained instead of merely followed as he walked to the toilets.

[Serpico]

ExPat reports of foreigners rotting in prison over Airport Theft.

"I have visited several dozen foreign prisoners at Samut Prakan Central Prison who were all arrested at the airport for minor shoplifting charges ranging from face cream to watches.

They were sentenced to between 6 months and one year in prison which shocked many lawyers that I spoke to.

They said Thai people would have been let off with a fine of a few thousand baht.

I know that for a fact as I paid the fine for one Thai person. "

[Loaded]

Having been in Thailand a long time, it wouldn't surprise me if the video is fake. I do not accept as truth a word uttered by a Thai when there is a conflict or disagreement. Maintaining face overrides honesty here always.

The only way to guarantee not ending up in Samut Prakan prison is to avoid duty-free shopping at the airport. I never saw the sense anyway as a nice bottle of whisky is often cheaper from 7/11 than Duty Free.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Loaded

[caf]

I think they are guilty

I wonder if this story made it into the press because they lied about the situation to friends at home so they could obtain the money needed to pay their way out.

If the story had been then passed on to a newspaper reporter , then the couple would have been forced to maintain the lie , hoping that it would not escalate to this with now more information coming to light and casting much doubt on their version of events.

if the police had shown them the footage from the CCTV , why did the couple not mention this in the original newspaper article ?

so why did kp not show this footage to the police at the time if they are sure of the facts of their case. and why did the police and kp at the time decide not to prosecute through lack of evidence when now they seem to have it. no english court would accept this at this stage.

[bdenner]

It's the length and natural lie of the womans hair that does it for me. I don't think they are one and the same person.

Could very well be the guy though! Juries out.

[stumonster]

I think they are guilty

if the police had shown them the footage from the CCTV , why did the couple not mention this in the original newspaper article ?

so why did kp not show this footage to the police at the time if they are sure of the facts of their case. and why did the police and kp at the time decide not to prosecute through lack of evidence when now they seem to have it. no english court would accept this at this stage.

nothing has been said yet that indicates to me that the police did not have this footage and if they had it I would have expected the couple to have been shown it. As for what happened after that was just standard for the system here - though without electric shocks to the genitals

[Curt1591]

I quick review of the video footage would clear this up .

and the Malaysian woman a few months ago who complained about being charged for shoplifting from kingpower ?

wonder how many other have been detained for shoplifting at kingpower ?

The Alleged Footage

[salty]

Having been in Thailand a long time, it wouldn't surprise me if the video is fake. I do not accept as truth a word uttered by a Thai when there is a conflict or disagreement. Maintaining face overrides honesty here always.

The only way to guarantee not ending up in Samut Prakan prison is to avoid duty-free shopping at the airport. I never saw the sense anyway as a nice bottle of whisky is often cheaper from 7/11 than Duty Free.

How true. Much safer to avoid the overpriced items at the airport. As regards the video where are CSI when you need them?

[animatic]

Second video clearly shows the hand taking the black package.

And then the confusion of the cashier over that disappearance.

But the British one's inconclusive after still another veiwing.

and it really seems dodgy that they alleged change of clothing

which as easily could be mistaking a similar looking couple dressed differently.

Sorry but this couple looks like dozens of couples I have seen

judging by dress styles, relative heights, weights, baldness patterns, color of hair etc.

Almost an arch-typical Brit with Asian lady pattern.

I see 3-4 similar couples on ANY trip through Swampy, without even looking for them...

[jackspratt]

I have no doubts some of the contributors to this thread could have been in the KP shop and watching it all happen, but would still be in denial.

And of course, to justify the denial in their own minds, are now quite happy to allege an elaborate conspiracy by KP.

God give us strength!

[harrycallahan]

This is my CSI effort. The posted media is very pixelated, the original _might_ be better, perhaps they just encoded it poorly for the web (not on purpose). BTW it's pointless sharpening or anything like that, you aren't going to find details where it hasn't been captured.

Take note that the man has a gold watch and that small black backpack with a distinctive circular emblem centred on it. Could it be proven he has previously been known to get around in or currently owns such items? Shirt is possibly the same one in each photo!

There's other cameras in the airport right? What do they reveal? (is it worth the trouble?)

IMO they probably did it, and hence should have appeared before a court to face charges, supported by the evidence against them. Instead the corrupt system dealt with them ex-judicially. That's asking for the kind of allegations that have been thrown around here.

King Power has said their piece, now how about something from the police who exhonerated them?

[animatic]

Easy to say someone is in denial if you disagree.

In denial of what? I can't see enough evidence

to support the conclusion that is them and that they did it.

Coupled with classic corruption and motivations to save face here at all costs.

I don't see this as conclusive. Simple as that.

And I have been paid to do forensic video and audio analysis

and image and 'conversation rescue' for court cases.

So I have a clue what is valuable in these case.

By the way it pays well...

That has nothing to do with being in denial,

because I DID NOTHING, and I am not denying that.

[Mobi]

We mustn't lose sight of the fact that King Power has a dubious past, to say the least, having had their current contract previously annulled due to their alleged 'illegal practices' in the bidding process, as well as occupying far more space at the airport than permitted in their contract, and building a restaurant without proper permission.

The contract was only recently reinstated when KP threatened a multi-billion Baht law suit against the airport authorities, and, of course, when one of the major shareholders, a certain Khun Newin, became involved as a coalition partner in the Democrat led government.

So with a company like KP, with all those enormous resources at their disposal, and their propensity to go to any lengths to protect their lucrative monopoly at the airport, it would not be beyond the bounds of credibility that they hire a Hollywood Film producer to cook up evidence against the British couple.

I'm not saying they did, and the balance of probability is that the video is genuine.

But no one is more wily and inventive than the Chinese -Thais, when it comes to protecting their turf and spinning a web of confusion and bewilderment. Do not doubt for one moment that they are not capable of concocting such a fiction.

We are, after all, living in a land where the law is held in contempt, and the the law enforcers are members of a huge Mafia type network.

Some posters mentioned that in a court of law the video evidence could be challenged, or held to be less than convincing, for one reason or another. I ask: The courts in which country? Certainly not Thailand, where the scientific investigation of crime scene evidence is virtually non existent, and many of the judges are as corrupt as the lawyers and police who bring the charges, and there is never any jury.

Of course KP are fully aware of all of this, and know that any evidence they produce will not be subject to the same minute examination that it would in a country with a half way decent legal system.

So I would say, that those who question the validity of the video, are not in denial, they are simply exercising a healthy degree of skepticism, which IMO is fully justified, given the circumstances.

[caf]

I think they are guilty

if the police had shown them the footage from the CCTV , why did the couple not mention this in the original newspaper article ?

so why did kp not show this footage to the police at the time if they are sure of the facts of their case. and why did the police and kp at the time decide not to prosecute through lack of evidence when now they seem to have it. no english court would accept this at this stage.

nothing has been said yet that indicates to me that the police did not have this footage and if they had it I would have expected the couple to have been shown it. As for what happened after that was just standard for the system here - though without electric shocks to the genitals

thanks for your input.

how do you deal with the fact that the prosecution said they had no evidence to convict originally, but kp are now saying they have a video of the couple shoplifting.

[syd barrett]

thanks for your input.

how do you deal with the fact that the prosecution said they had no evidence to convict originally, but kp are now saying they have a video of the couple shoplifting.

They decided not to prosecute because they would rather it be passed over to the 'bribe-section' and make a few quid.

[Lancelot]

Instead the corrupt system dealt with them ex-judicially. That's asking for the kind of allegations that have been thrown around here.

King Power has said their piece, now how about something from the police who exhonerated them?

Exactly

[jackspratt]

I eagerly await the follow-up story from the timesonline, and the comments of Mr Ingram and Ms Xi on the video.

Will they deny it is them - as others on this thread seem to keen to do?

If they cough up, will wholesale apologies be issued to KP?

Watch this space.

[stumonster]

thanks for your input.

how do you deal with the fact that the prosecution said they had no evidence to convict originally, but kp are now saying they have a video of the couple shoplifting.

who is the prosecution ? the police deciding whether to charge the couple and/or proceed with the case ?

er , I think I can guess how that played out after the "fine" was paid.

[caf]

I eagerly await the follow-up story from the timesonline, and the comments of Mr Ingram and Ms Xi on the video.

Will they deny it is them - as others on this thread seem to keen to do?

If they cough up, will wholesale apologies be issued to KP?

Watch this space.

I don't know where you get "deny" from. Posters have cast doubt on whether the photos are of them by comparing the previous pictures.

You have carefully ignored the timing of the release of this video. First they say they have no evidence. Now - 8000 pounds later and tehy are in the uk - they produce the "evidence"

Are you disputing that they did not pay the 8000 pounds and get clearance of no conviction from the police before leaving the country.

[Mobi]

The Plot thickens.

Here we go again:

Irish scientist escapes Thai airport shoplifting charge in flight to freedom

Published

By Andrew Drummond on July 5, 2009

An Irish scientist arrested in Thailand and accused of shoplifting at Bangkok's international airport yesterday fled with her husband and one year old son.

Dr. Angela ' Ashie' Norris, from Dublin, a scientist working for the international fish farming company Marine Harvest in Letterkenny, boarded a European bound flight after checking out of the city's five star Metropolitan Hotel.

Last night they were all back at their home in Churchtown, Dublin.

Dr. Norris had been seized by Thai police at the request of King Power for alleged shoplifting after attending an International Symposium as a guest of a Kasetsart University, Bangkok.

Prior to their departure husband Dr. Ronan Loftus, a director of IdentiGen, the Dublin based company which tracks DNA in food, had flown from Dublin with their one year old son Aran. Since then he said he had been in regular contact with the Irish Ambassador in Kuala Lumpur Eugene Hutchinson and Eóin Duggan, the Deputy Head of Mission.

"The Department of Foreign Affairs have been fully informed."

The non executive Chairman of IdentiGen, Dr. Patrick Cunningham is Chief scientific advisor to the Irish government.

Dr. Norris, 41, the mother of three boys, aged 5, 4, and 1, was arrested on Thursday June 24, after allegedly stealing a 'Bobby Brown' eyeliner worth 900 Thai baht (18.87 Euros) from the duty free zone at Suvarnabhumi International airport in Bangkok - a kilometre long area of duty free and designer shops, including branches of Harrods and Boots, run by King Power.

The arrest came in the middle of an international scandal over the Duty Free Zone in which claims were made that people arrested there for alleged shoplifting were being shaken down for vast amounts of money to gain their freedom.

The Irish Embassy along with other Embassies in Thailand is considering updating their travel advisory to Thailand. On Thursday last week the British Embassy was the first Embassy to issue a warning about the 'market' area at Suvarnabhumi International airport.

"This advice has been reviewed and reissued with amendments to the Crime section (shops and stalls, particularly in market areas and at Suvarnabhumi Airport).

"You should also be careful to observe demarcation lines between shops and stalls, particularly in market areas and at Suvarnabhumi Airport. Taking items from one shop's area to another is likely to be treated by shop staff as suspected theft. You may be arrested by the police and asked to pay a substantial fine and/or face imprisonment"

This followed the case of a British couple from Cambridge, Stephen Ingram and Xi Lin, both IT specialists who were forced to pay out the equivalent of 9337 Euros for their freedom after being accused of stealing a Givenchy wallet worth 140 Euros from an airport duty free shop.

Dr. Norris was arrested as she awaited a late night flight back to Dublin via London. She had been in Bangkok at the invitation of Kasetsart University for the '10th International Symposium on Genetics and Aquaculture."

"I had been cooped up in the conference for four days and had no time to do shopping. So at the airport I bought some stuff for my children and then decided to treat myself to some make-up".

She had approached the cashier with two items she said. She presented her boarding card and credit card and signed the slip.

Two minutes after she left she shop she said she was surrounded by security guards employed by King Power, a company run by a Thai businessman and polo playing chum of Britain's Prince Charles.

"They were shouting at me. 'You! You! You go jail six months!' I did not know what they were talking about. They took the eyeliner off me and started waving it in my face. I said I had paid for it, but when I looked at the receipt it was only a receipt for 576 baht (12 Euros) for the Bobby Brown lipstick."

"They took me to the airport police station and then to a police station outside the airport. It was terrifying. The cell was filthy and stank and was full of mosquitoes. I paced the cell all night. I did not want to sit or lie down."

"What do I do?" she asked the Irish Mail on Sunday last week. "I have never been away from my baby son for more than four days. I have to do whatever it takes to get home."

" I did not steal the eyeliner. I did not intend to steal the eyeliner. But I did leave the shop without paying for it. Of course I may have to pay to go free.

"To fight the case I would have to wait for up to a year if I pleaded not guilty and several months even if I were to plead guilty. They have you and they know it."

It is not immediately clear how Dr. Norris left Thailand. She did not appear in court but claimed authorities told her she had no case to answer. But she also claimed just hours before her departure that her passport had not been returned and no longer trusted anybody. The Irish government may have given her a second passport in her married name.

Her husband Ronan, the Director in charge of Global Development for IdentiGen said: "What is happening here is outrageous and needs to be exposed. It's a national scandal."

fao_logoDr Loftus has also worked for UNFAO, the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organisation.

On June 25th Dr. Norris was given bail in the sum of 100,000 Thai baht (2097 Euros), after contacting Thai friends who said they would negotiate with the police, and then released from Rajatewa Police station near the international airport.

Late on Thursday she told the Irish Mail on Sunday: "I spent all day at the police station and prosecutor's office. My understanding from both the police chief and the prosecutor is that there is no case to answer. They said that my passport would be returned and Immigration Police would stamp me out of the country".

But when she went to Immigration Police Headquarters on Friday she said she was arrested again.

Close to tears she said: "We do not know what is going on. We do not trust anybody. Thailand has a public holiday for the first three days of next week. We cannot even talk to anybody. We have to leave.

"I have only been to Bangkok once before, twenty years ago, after I left University.

"Then my friends and I fell for the local jewellery scam. By the time we reached Australia we had virtually no money left"

(The jewellery scam is a famous Bangkok scam. Tourists are told they have arrived on a special day when the government is giving massive discounts on jewellery for selected tourists. They can pay for their holidays for the profits, they are told.)

Husband Ronan, 43 added: "We have no choice but to leave. We have people who will help us. The Irish Government is being supportive."

K.P. Company Ltd, which trades under the name King Power is owned by Vichai Ratsriaksorn, President of the Siam Polo Club and Ham Polo Club, just outside London. He has a stable of 100 polo ponies.

King Power insists it has sold evidence against the Britons, Stephen Ingram and Xi Lin, and Dr. Norris.

Managing Director Sombat Dechapanichkul said: "The evidence (CCTV) clearly shows that Mrs. Norris only presented one item to the cashier. We would like to confirm that none of our staff are involved in (any) extortion and scam."

To support their case King Power have been putting up video clips on the internet. ( http://www.kingpower.com/2009/index.php#). Travel Trade Report in an article this week says that King Power feel victimised over the recent allegations. The company is expected shortly to put up video of Dr. Norris.

Stephen Ingram denies that the video clip implicates him and is suing for 1 million Thai baht for wrongful arrest and imprisonment. The video appears to show Xi Lin putting he wallet in her shoulder bag while Stephen Ingram looks on.

He says he has no evidence that King Power is in on the scam but was told that part of his money had already been paid to security staff at King Power.

Dr.Norris says that what she saw does not implicate her either. Dr. Norris, author of 'Breeding for business', needed to return home to her family and her work for Marine Harvest, which is one of the two biggest salmon farming companies in the world.

Said Stephen Ingram: "The scam does not happen until you get to the police station. We had to pay, and for that we got letters from the prosecutor's office and police saying there was no evidence against us. The only other choice was a year in jail. But we were innocent anyway", he told the Irish Mail on Sunday.

He said that the principal dealer, a Sri Lankan police volunteer/ translator, Sunil Rathnayaka had tried to scam him right up to the last minute. We had already paid out the equivalent of £8000 then as we were leaving he asked for another £1000. We just did not have it.

"He boasted that he had dealt with 160 other cases. He had three houses. He claimed he did it to help people. He did not need the money."

Rathnayaka, who receives the money at an account of Siam Commercial Bank at Big C in Rajdamri Bangkok, had approached Dr. Norris, but disappeared when the scandal broke. "Don't get a lawyer. I am the only person who can help." he had said.

The British Embassy says that some 25 of its citizens have been arrested over the last two and a half years. They are liaising with other Embassies to build a fuller picture of what is going on.

The Irish Department of Foreign Affairs says that Dr.Norris had been given full consular support.

"The issue of the travel advisory is under discussion with our Consular Division, our mission in Kuala Lumpur and the Consulate in Bangkok.

I can confirm that we have no record of any similar arrests of Irish citizens at Suvarnabhumi airport."

I am more dubious than ever that the videos are either genuine, and/or implicate the arrested Brits.

In no circumstances would I recommend anyone in any circumstances whatsoever to go near KP at the airport. This business is beginning to stink from a great height.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Mobi

[ozzieovaseas]

Anyone who continues to deny that they are not the same couple is deluded IMO.

I think it was the same girl BUT even if not, then who is to say it is not a friend,sister..??

In my mind theres no doubt whatsoever that it IS Ingram in the footage.

They've gone to all manner of lengths to be cadgey and disguise the theft in other ways, so its feasable to me that they might have been acting in a group of three and maybe got a second female to do the thieving as to further disguise themselves.

This would support the scenario that all three broke up and in doing would cause further confusion over the identity of the female in the footage.

In any case Ingrams BIG mistake was to take over possession of the wallet as it definately links him to the theft beyond all doubt,regardless of who the woman is..who anyone can see were together .

When their dastly deeds were detected they obviously planned for him to take posession of the wallet and dispose of it in the MALE toilets in another feeble attempt to weisel their way out of it.

Its just another case like the barmat-mum case with all the details coming out later that she was as guilty as sin...and us suckers who defend them end up with eggs on our face to.

AND..may i add.. in early pages of other such cases i find it interesting that anyone who dares question the innocence of the farangs in trouble are met with scorn from the "cryingbabys", who call us farang haters and traitors

[animatic]

Forgot to ring up something and still put it in the bag.

And 1 minute later it's an arrest... PURE BULLSHIT.

It is either;

A scam, don't ring up one item so it looks like a theft,

give the high sign, and security moves in like banshees.

Or utter cashier incompetence that is observed and made a profit on.

EITHER WAY K.P. 's name is emblazoned on this.

With this highly connected, irish scientist, mother of 3,

they very likely screwed the pooch big time. Especially

on the heels of the other high profile UK arrest scenario.

Any one planning to buy something at Swampy,

check your receipts and items tally before leaving the register,

Not to say the operators of the airport concession are condoning this,

but not stamping it out HARD is definitely going to affect the bottom lines of

more than just K.P. Hence the internet damage control efforts.

This is reflecting badly on all of Thailand at the worst possible time.

I'll be flying in a few days, ain't saying when...

no chance I will be anywhere but middle of the aisle when passing

ANY stores in the WHOLE airport... Tough luck, I have been lead to

believe I am NOT SAFE making purchases in any store at Suvarnabhumi anymore.

What a great national business model.

Plenty of places to get gum and magazines outside.

And I don't care about bar mats, or 'branded' items anyway.

How many ways can they shoot tourism in the foot for short money?

[MaiChai]

Wow the plot thickens! Maybe they should try Hillary Clinton when she departs?

Even if the Cambridge couple were guilty, the way they were shaken down for 8000 pounds to get freedom is not justice. The folks at the airport manipulated the system and bypassed legal procedures. The couple were not charged. The police should be shamed allowing this to happen, and they must have been part of it? This is a scam to extract money from foreigners. No other way to look at it. This is not justice in anybody's book. Where did the 8000 pound bail go?

The video looks too perfectly composed and not detailed enough to clearly identify the couple. The Asian lady looks much slimmer in the video. I have lived in Thailand a long time and people will go to any length to prove they are right and not loose face. So I could not say this video is genuine. Either way its not good enough for evidence in court, and as originally mentioned, the couple were not charge. So no case. Thus KPs exercise is just a PR stunt as they should have done things properly at the point of the crime if they want to make a case of it.

Edited July 5, 2009 by MaiChai

[Mobi]

This is a scam to extract money from foreigners. No other way to look at it. This is not justice in anybody's book.

At the risk of offending all the "if you complain so much why do you live here?" brigade, I would say that Thailand is fast becoming 'scam foreigners' capital of the world, be it shake downs in the airport, Thai motorcyclists aiming their bikes at you to claim massive compensation, cops planting evidence and setting up 'farang traps' and so on and so on... Many diverse and shocking scams/shakedowns have already been reported already on this thread, and they can't all be figments of over active imaginations.

The word is out - foreigners have loadsa money - even the backpackers (when they first arrive or through their families back home), and they are like lambs to the slaughter in this corrupt and increasingly amoral society.

[Mai Krap]

Irish scientist escapes Thai airport shoplifting charge in flight to freedom

Published

By Andrew Drummond on July 5, 2009

'You! You! You go jail six months!'

[stumonster]

if the police say they are not pressing for prosecution and the KP people accept payment as restitution why should the case not be closed as per the way things work here ?

so far in these 3 cases they all seem to be in possession of an item that has not been paid for ( though the wallet was found in a toilet rubbish bin ).

now KP is being forced to not accept restitution to drop the accusation , so people will be parked up for a lot longer while they wait for their case to be decided.

the idea that video has been concocted after the event seems a bit far fetched - the problem with conspiracy theories like this is a lot of people have to be able to keep it secret.

[hughben]

Regarding the woman's hair which is different in the video compared to the photo from the times, a solution can be found by checking the Immigration photo that would have been taken of her when she went through passport control.

It would also verify what top she had on and what shirt he had on.

[Datsun240Z]

I have no words to describe the way Thai goverment is dealing with thefts.