Accent Reduction

[JamieP]

A work colleague overheard me talking in Thai on the phone and seemed quite amused at me speaking Thai with a Scottish accent.

While I am on a bit of a roll just now in terms of vocabularly building, I am all to aware that my pronunciation leaves a lot to be desired.

I need to reduce the Scottish burr and sound more neutral.

Any tips?

[aanon]

A work colleague overheard me talking in Thai on the phone and seemed quite amused at me speaking Thai with a Scottish accent.

While I am on a bit of a roll just now in terms of vocabularly building, I am all to aware that my pronunciation leaves a lot to be desired.

I need to reduce the Scottish burr and sound more neutral.

Any tips?

My suggestions: forget about trying to compare Thai and Scottish sounds; avoid transliteration schemes if you have time & opportunity to learn Thai alphabet; learn to say each vowel and consonant vowel properly, however you do it (eg. tape a native speaker, tape yourself, read about the technical aspects, get a native speaker to identify any real 'problem' sounds, etc etc.); pick a Thai song you like and try learn it; try to mimic the TV...and so on. Oh, and don't forget the tones in all this, of course.

Be creative, set your mind to it and you will get there. By the way, you might find that improving your pronunciation helps you pick up new vocab even more quickly.

All the best.

[DavidHouston]

Jamie,

My recommendations mirror those of Anon to a large extent:

1. "Imitation" should be your guiding principle. No matter how strange you think it might sound, try to imitate Thai speakers' speaking patterns as exactly as you can. You may not be able to tell whether a given tonal pattern follows true tones or whether a pattern is intonation, but in any event, what a Thai says and the way he or she says it is by definition correct and acceptable. Some will argue that following a female speech pattern will make you sound sexually ambiguous. I would not worry; it is better to get the tones, consonants, and vowels correct.

2. Treat pronunciation as akin to physical therapy. After you speak like a Thai for an hour our so, the parts of your mouth might feel like they have run a marathon. Do not worry. They more tired you become, the more likely it is that you are accustoming your vocal organs to speaking this foreign language.

3. See immediate feedback. Part of your learning process should be obtaining a Thai teacher who will work on the sounds with you on a one to one basis, and who will not allow you to rest until you get a sound correct. Understanding the mechanics of the vocal parts may be helpful and such understanding may take the frustration out of finding it difficult to get the sounds right. For that, you might need to revert to some of the experts on this site and others who can explain how the physical parts work. Believe me: there are likely no Thai sounds that you are not capable of reproducing with the right explanations and practice.

4. Practice and memorize. Once you can understand and reproduce a given set of consonants, vowels, and tones, memorize and practice these combinations until you can say them fluently and correctly. Then, you can expand to phrases and sentences. Repeat and practice slowly until you get the hang of each one and are able to say the word, phrase, or sentence fluently.

5. Be mindful of pronunciation. When you speak Thai in a conversation, continue to be mindful of your pronunciation. Sometimes, you might wish to practice a question or response in your mind with the correct pronunciation and tones before actually articulating them in conversation.

I wish you the best of luck in your studies. Recognition of the problem, as you have done, is the key to its solution.

[klons]

For correct pronunciation my wife suggested to me that I go back to kindergarten. She says the way they teach kids to read is by going through each consonant of the alphabet and speak it with all the vowels. This sounds like a jolly good idea to me, but I need to find a lesson like this. If they still teach kids this way (wife went to kindergarten 50 years ago) then I think there may be a learning VCD like this for Thai kids I could use in bookstores. I will be looking next time I go to a mall.

[keo]

Some great advice from DH there, as always.

A great piece of advice I was given by a French teacher, regarding acquiring a good accent, was to speak like you are trying take the piss out of the native speakers.

And remember, what you hear, and what they hear is different, so recording yourself is a great idea.

As for the Thai colleague, it never ceases to amaze me how blunt Thai people can be, especially for a society that are supposed to be "greng jai".

How often do you meet Thai people with good English or American accents? Not very often.

Ask your colleague to read out this sentence - Harry Potter was playing his computer in the helicopter with his friend Peter.

And then burst out laughing in his or her face. See how they like it!

I'm Scottish, I've got a decent Thai accent. It just takes practice. Stick at it.

[DavidHouston]

For correct pronunciation my wife suggested to me that I go back to kindergarten. She says the way they teach kids to read is by going through each consonant of the alphabet and speak it with all the vowels. This sounds like a jolly good idea to me, but I need to find a lesson like this. If they still teach kids this way (wife went to kindergarten 50 years ago) then I think there may be a learning VCD like this for Thai kids I could use in bookstores. I will be looking next time I go to a mall.

There is a wonderful seven-book set called "หัดอ่านภาษาไทยแบบใหม่". (This reference shows book 6.) It is comprised of a progressive set of practice materials from the simple to the complex. There are no English explanations or roman transcriptions; the books are used for Thai children or functionally illiterate adults to help them read. See also Book 3 at

http://www.chulabook.com/cgi-bin/main/2007...e=9789749074077

Although the books can be used by us learners for self-study, they are best used in my opinion, in conjunction with a Thai teacher who will correct your pronunciation on the spot. The lessons are organized very well to emphasize individual points and difficulties encountered in reading.

And, these books are available in many bookstores in Thailand.

Edited July 2, 2009 by DavidHouston

[Tod Daniels]

I concur with David Houston's advice on the series of books "หัดอ่านภาษาไทยแบบใหม่". He recommended them to me over a year ago. I bought the set from Chula Books, (they are cheap as chips).

As he explained; the only downside is, for best results, they should be used with a native thai speaker (and you MUST be able to read thai script). In those books many of the sounds are NOT actual thai words (as in they don’t have any meaning), but the thai language can couple consonants and vowels together without having a meaning but still carrying the combined sound of the components, it helps a LOT as far as pronuncuation of different consonant/vowel combinations. It also helped my reading as well.

That series of books did more in a month of practice with my thai teacher as far as increasing my ability to enunciate more clearly than many, many months of pure conversational thai did.

I would also concur with the other posters that as a rule you should generally try to imitate what you hear thais say as far as correct pronunciation. However, with that being said, I offer this caveat; keep in mind education levels of individuals in this country vary tremendously. Older people usually stopped at ป.๓, while younger people nowadays usually finish ม.๖, with many going to university. The level of thai they speak is tied to their education level, it just is what it is.

I am always hesitant of mimicking the thai I hear spoken on the street near my house, and would rather talk too formally, than too casual. I would be just as reticent in the US of trying to mimic the english of a hillbilly from rural Appalachia who stopped attending school in 4th grade.

Speaking colloquial thai is fine for the SomTam or noodle seller, but some of the things I hear foreign people say in thai at Suan Plu thai immigrations makes me and the immigration officials wince.

Bottom line, know your audience.

Good luck

[JamieP]

As for the Thai colleague, it never ceases to amaze me how blunt Thai people can be, especially for a society that are supposed to be "greng jai".

It was actually an Englishman

But still, I have to improve.

[Harcourt]

Yes, immitation. I don't speak Thai yet, but I do speak 2 other languages and the native speakers always compliment me and say I speak their language like one of them. My secret?.... can you imagine an English actor pretending to be, say an Indian speaking English (" Oh golly gosh, I am not knowing where to be going..." etc. The actor puts that well known Bombay accent on his words (as someone said above, "taking the piss")... you just reverse the tequnique. When I speak Hindi, I imagine I am that actor but use the Hindi words with that "piss-take" accent....and it comes out like a native!!

Classic accents that comedians successfully mimic are Japanese, Chinese, Hindi, Welsh, and Scottish...just imagine how they are done on TV by the likes of Peter Sellers. Now try speaking English with a Thai accent (taking the piss), then, using that same accent, insert your actual Thai words. Convert the tequnique to your Thai.

[meadish_sweetball]

As for the Thai colleague, it never ceases to amaze me how blunt Thai people can be, especially for a society that are supposed to be "greng jai".

It was actually an Englishman

But still, I have to improve.

Unless he belongs to a select few, chances are his own accent isn't all that hip either. To the Thais it matters little if the background accent is from the Home Counties or from the Highlands and they won't be able to tell them apart. Working on reducing your accent to something that is easily comprehensible for the Thais is the way to go, no matter where you are from.

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes, immitation. I don't speak Thai yet, but I do speak 2 other languages and the native speakers always compliment me and say I speak their language like one of them. My secret?.... can you imagine an English actor pretending to be, say an Indian speaking English (" Oh golly gosh, I am not knowing where to be going..." etc. The actor puts that well known Bombay accent on his words (as someone said above, "taking the piss")... you just reverse the tequnique. When I speak Hindi, I imagine I am that actor but use the Hindi words with that "piss-take" accent....and it comes out like a native!!

Classic accents that comedians successfully mimic are Japanese, Chinese, Hindi, Welsh, and Scottish...just imagine how they are done on TV by the likes of Peter Sellers. Now try speaking English with a Thai accent (taking the piss), then, using that same accent, insert your actual Thai words. Convert the tequnique to your Thai.

I agree it's a good starting point but it's also important to choose a fitting native speaker to emulate one's voice after - since many of us foreign men have comparatively deep voices, one particular thing to look out for is not to raise the overall pitch of one's voice too much, thinking that this is necessary to sound Thai - it isn't - there are Thais with deep voices too, they are just a little harder to come by.

I also find that while some Thais tend to speak fairly nasally, this isn't a necessary feature either. I started out mimicking that nasal pronunciation but once I started to record my conversations I found it just sounded silly and then I also discovered from watching TV that not all Thais have that type of nasal twang, so it can be done away with.

So I agree about it being a good strategy at first, but the next challenge is then to merge that slightly exaggerated accent with one's own comfortable and natural speaking voice to create something that sounds like your natural self speaking Thai.

[Rikker]

Good advice, Meadish. Too late for me -- I speak nasally and at a higher pitch than I do in English. But sometimes I do talk like the movie voiceover guy for fun, too. ;P

[kriswillems]

My Thai pronounciation was bad until I had one specific teacher that really corrected every little mistake I made. She listened very carefully to every word I said and made me repeat it until it was perfect. I studied only one month with her and at the end of that month I was very self confident when talking and I tried to articulate every word exactly like she taught me. It felt to me like overacting, but I did notice that people understood me very well.

After that specific teacher my pronunciation slowly got worse because there was nobody anymore that corrected my mistakes, like she did. But at least there's something that I learnt from her: it's not bad to overact.

If you try to talk like a newsreader, slowly, with a nice long pronounciation of the long vowels, clear difference between the aspirate and non-aspirate consonants, and a clear pronounciation of the tones, people will understand you better. It feels unnatural, because people don't talk like newsreaders, but it actually works.

Having an accent is not a big problem as long as the accent is not that bad there can be confusion between the vowels or confusion between aspirate and non-aspirate consonants.

If I would have to give one tip I would say: try to practice on the vowel sounds you don't have in your language or that are slightly different in your language.

Edited July 4, 2009 by kriswillems

[Harcourt]

Good advice, Meadish. Too late for me -- I speak nasally and at a higher pitch than I do in English. But sometimes I do talk like the movie voiceover guy for fun, too. ;P

Oh Gosh, I know exactly what you mean. Nasally higher pitch: I find myself doing it as part of my tequnique mentioned above. As a beginner, the tonal characteristic of the language was/is my first hurdle and so I have adopted the nasal high pitch.

I am finding that tones are coming more naturaly now....once I have it, I will have to work on using my own voice but keeping the accent.

[klons]

Good advice, Meadish. Too late for me -- I speak nasally and at a higher pitch than I do in English. But sometimes I do talk like the movie voiceover guy for fun, too. ;P

Does this mean that learning pronunciation from a movie dubbed in Thai is not such a good idea? The movie voiceover guy?

[Rikker]

Oh Gosh, I know exactly what you mean. Nasally higher pitch: I find myself doing it as part of my tequnique mentioned above. As a beginner, the tonal characteristic of the language was/is my first hurdle and so I have adopted the nasal high pitch.

I am finding that tones are coming more naturaly now....once I have it, I will have to work on using my own voice but keeping the accent.

I don't think it's a bad habit, necessarily. Unless one is worried about sounding "too Thai". That is, a Thai will likely never say you sound too nasally or high pitched, because that's a pretty natural way to sound in Thai. (Unless maybe you habitually talk in the whiny uber-nasal tone common in younger generation women -- think ทำมายยยอ่ะ).

On the contrary -- I can pass for a Thai in basic phone conversations (had an interview request turned down once by a bigwig academic, who later when we met face to face apologized with the excuse, 'I thought you were Thai') and am regularly told by folks I meet, ถ้าไม่ดูหน้า จะนึกว่าคนไทย "If I wasn't looking at your face I'd think you were Thai." Etc. Of course, I know enough to know that you don't have to talk to me long before the facade begins to come crumbling down.

Anyhow, I don't have a particularly deep voice, and I just sort of fell into my Thai voice. Mimicry has always been one of my techniques, but of course I don't mimic anyone in particular, since I talk with many people daily, and have talked with thousands of people over the years.

So for me it's just how I talk in Thai. But I also change my "accent" depending on who I'm talking to. My s's are clear s's most of the time, but when I'm trying to be playful or slangy, they can slip into the lisped 'th' sound common among many younger folks. I pronounce much clearer r's in formal situations, but it's all l's casual conversations. That's all part and parcel to deciding which 'register' to speak in, too. You just have to size up the audience.

In the past I've been asked to provide specific feedback on consistent pronunciation errors of English > Thai interpreting by non-native interpreters (i.e. farangs speaking Thai). So I'd listen to a recording and take notes, then give them to the (Thai) boss. Not that my pronunciation is perfect, but I've found I am able to pinpoint systematic mistakes in others' accents. If there were some non time-intensive way to provide feedback like that to people, I'd do it more. I've done it for a few friends at their request, because I am able to be specific in ways a Thai might not. But I don't go around just criticizing others' Thai, of course, because then I'd be a jerk, and others would do the same to me. ;P

Okay, now I'm sounding like a braggart. Accents are complex. Keep working at it.

[aanon]

I find it amusing that there only seem to be a couple of voice styles that are used to dub foreign movies -- and the lead male actor always has to have a super suave, deep voice. on top of that, there's a certain speaking style that is used -- the tones are all right, of course, but on a sentence level the intonation is sometimes quite different to regular thai speech.

getting back to the OP...if you'd like to upload a sound file of you speaking, I'm sure people could give you some indication of which particular aspects of pronunciation you could work on.

aanon.

[JamieP]

Thanks for all the replies there's a lot of good stuff there.

What I think I'll do is try and see if any of the Thai English teachers at my school cal help me for a couple of hundred baht an hour. I'll probably use Becker's book as the base.

Jamie

[meadish_sweetball]

there's a certain speaking style that is used -- the tones are all right, of course, but on a sentence level the intonation is sometimes quite different to regular thai speech.

I agree, there is a certain quality to how both the male and female overdubbers speak... it would be interesting to see this described in technical terms, I am not sure I can pinpoint the exact differences.

[DMasut]

Leanr the Thai alphabet and associated tonal sounds for each letter.... then when you read ro pronounce words your have a much better understanding of how they are put together and the associated tonals... it will make things remarkably better...and much more fun reading those bloody local newspapers like ThaiRath and the Daily News.

failing that... let your tonal mistake with your Scottish accent be the thing they find endearing and all the little girlies fawning over you with...unless you're from Glasgow, in which case, there's nothing we can do to help you mate.