The Opening-door-for-thais Fallacy

[bonobo]

I have read in TV several times that Thais do not appreciate common courtesy, to whit, they never hold a door open, nor do they thank you if you hold it open for them.

This seemed a little odd for me, so for the last three months, I have been monitoring this (yes, sometimes I have too much time on my hands.)

OK, I did observe that Thais, on the whole, do not tend to make it a habit to hold a door for someone else.  I would say that this happens about 20% of the time.  However, a full 90% of the Thais do acknowledge and thank me when I hold the door open for them.  Women, seeing me holding the door, tend to quicken their steps and sort of slide through the door, half bowing/waiing as they enter.  Men merely tend to nod to me and/or say thanks (most in Thai, some in English).  But the fact of the matter is that almost all Thais do thank me for holding the door for them.

I ralize that this is not earth-shattering news.  But I just wanted to refute the many posts in threads gone by which attest that Thais do not appreciate someone holding a door open for them.

[TheLaughingMan]

This "experiment" will be completely swayed by where you do this. In a more western style area (Emporium etc) I can see Thais acknowledging door holders. In a dirt poor area with little western influence I can't see you getting the same results at all.

[keo]

I have lived in Chiang Mai for 3 years, and I am shocked if I even get an acknowledgment, never mind a "thank you", for holding the door open for a Thai.

[henryalleman]

And did you notice that the Thai are maybe polite to you, but to their own people they act like an uneducated bunch of selfish people,

When the door man or woman in a shopping mall open the door for them they treat as non existing people. the same behavior to the security guards in INDEX for instance,the always make a whai and say Sawasdee krab, I still have to see the first Thai who even look at them. The same go's for the security guards in their compounds, NOT EVEN THE SMALLEST sign of recognition.

You seems to have some time on your hand so next time you study their behaviour towards sales people and other people in the service industry;

No my friend, if you are not in an higher position as them they treat their own countryman and women as dirt.

I'm rather well know in the supermarkets and other shopping centre, when I'm entering they give me a big smile already 20 meters before I enter the shop, also for the security guards at my condo, simply because I'm one of the great exceptions who say sawasdee and kob khun krab with them.

The Thai social system is very simply, kiss the a**** of the one above you, and ignore the ones who are lower on the food chain.

This is my 35 years experience of study the Thai social standards and behaviour towards their own people.

And you should read the numerous topics about Thai drivers behaviour in traffic, than you can see their real character when you can not see their face behind the dark films of their car. They say its for protection against the sun, well frankly, I believe this is only partially so. they act like barbarians in traffic with a very few exceptions, sometimes I'm even chocked by the behaviour of my own family members who are in generally very nice and polite people;

[Xangsamhua]

About 3 years ago National Geographic did a survey of politeness in 30 major cities around the world. A female reporter would drop some papers and see if people helped her pick them up. Reporters observed whether people opened the door for others, and they went into Starbucks and noted if the staff said thank you, have a nice day, etc.

Bangkok came fairly low down in the results. The city that came top was New York, which I gather is an improbable place to top a politeness index. Most of the top fifteen cities were European or North American. Most of the bottom 15 were Asian or East European. Clearly there was cultural bias in the research method.

What Henry Alleman says may be true in a general sense. However, I think you'd need to survey Thai people as to how important they think holding doors open or responding to an obligatory salute from a security guard might be. I think they'd want to see evidence of positive respect shown to the elderly, tolerance for error, a calm disposition, etc.

While I think of it - where in the world do adults stand up for children? Is Thailand unique in this? If this were an indicator, how many Western cities would score well on a National Geographic-type survey of politeness?

Edited July 6, 2009 by Xangsamhua

[bonobo]

And you should read the numerous topics about Thai drivers behaviour in traffic, than you can see their real character when you can not see their face behind the dark films of their car. They say its for protection against the sun, well frankly, I believe this is only partially so. they act like barbarians in traffic with a very few exceptions, sometimes I'm even chocked by the behaviour of my own family members who are in generally very nice and polite people;

Driving is  different subject.  I do think that normally polite Thais sometimes use the annonymity of being in a car to be quite rude, to be honest (something like some posters on internet forums who act in ways far more rude than they ever would face-to-face with someone.)

This "experiment" will be completely swayed by where you do this. In a more western style area (Emporium etc) I can see Thais acknowledging door holders. In a dirt poor area with little western influence I can't see you getting the same results at all.

I did most of my observations at Major Pin Klao, and all I can write about is what I observed there.  

[webfact]

try to step out an elevator when Thais want to go in... sorry for being off-top but its very similar to the "door case"

[Datsun240Z]

(yes, sometimes I have too much time on my hands.)

Your avatar explains it all

[MrHammer]

I have read in TV several times that Thais do not appreciate common courtesy, to whit, they never hold a door open, nor do they thank you if you hold it open for them.

This seemed a little odd for me, so for the last three months, I have been monitoring this (yes, sometimes I have too much time on my hands.)

OK, I did observe that Thais, on the whole, do not tend to make it a habit to hold a door for someone else.  I would say that this happens about 20% of the time.  However, a full 90% of the Thais do acknowledge and thank me when I hold the door open for them.  Women, seeing me holding the door, tend to quicken their steps and sort of slide through the door, half bowing/waiing as they enter.  Men merely tend to nod to me and/or say thanks (most in Thai, some in English).  But the fact of the matter is that almost all Thais do thank me for holding the door for them.

I ralize that this is not earth-shattering news.  But I just wanted to refute the many posts in threads gone by which attest that Thais do not appreciate someone holding a door open for them.

Same thing happens to me, they even say 'Thank you', WOW!

But it still doesn't stop them from not holding the doors themselves. I consider it insulting if someone knows I am behind them and they don't hold the door at all. It is bad manners and poor form and it doesn't exactly make you want to continue holding doors.

[garyh]

Thai's aren't going to hold the door for you the same as they ignore whats going behind them on the road. Thats how it is, you will either have to accept it or get over it.

[jackr]

About 3 years ago National Geographic did a survey of politeness in 30 major cities around the world. A female reporter would drop some papers and see if people helped her pick them up. Reporters observed whether people opened the door for others, and they went into Starbucks and noted if the staff said thank you, have a nice day, etc.

Bangkok came fairly low down in the results. The city that came top was New York

I bet they expected a tip for the bother though

Can't see a US city beating an English one on this front unless they only surveyed ones from the north.

(yes, sometimes I have too much time on my hands.)

Your avatar explains it all

... and yours doesn't.

I get about 50/50 acknowledgement for holding open doors and the blokes beat the sheilas hands down for courtesy.

[MiG16]

Im letting this topic run for now

but if it gets to any generic bashing of any nationality, it will be closed

[MrHammer]

Then again you could argue that holding the door or saying hello to the doorman are empty gestures.

When I've needed help with something from strangers in Thailand, be it a lift, to make a phonecall whatever, needed change for a taxi, I've always found Thais to be very helpful and polite.

[G54]

Can't see a US city beating an English one on this front unless they only surveyed ones from the north.

Typical Southerner who known <deleted> all about polite Northern folk

[jackr]

Can't see a US city beating an English one on this front unless they only surveyed ones from the north.

Typical Southerner who known <deleted> all about polite Northern folk

See what I mean

[Birdman]

Thais are very polite and respectful, but they often don't show that, because they simple don't think about that. Best example: If someone rebukes another not to jump the queue, the other immediately reacts like on a wake up call, smiles to apologise and queues behind.

btw Bonobo, you are surely a nice and sincere contemporary individual, but your investigations makes me have a giggle...

Edited July 6, 2009 by Birdman

[eek]

I have lived in Chiang Mai for 3 years, and I am shocked if I even get an acknowledgment, never mind a "thank you", for holding the door open for a Thai.

Woh..sad to read that! Ive lived in Chiang Mai nearly 3 years myself and although I have experienced a few occasions where the door wasnt held for me, and the rare non smile or thank you for holding a door open (and other courteous acts), i would say that most of the time i show courtesy I am thanked or smile/nodded at. Ive also experienced MANY polite courteous acts from others (thai and other nationalities). I have no idea why it would be so very different for you.

And did you notice that the Thai are maybe polite to you, but to their own people they act like an uneducated bunch of selfish people,

----

No my friend, if you are not in an higher position as them they treat their own countryman and women as dirt.

Well..my bf has his own businesses here in Chiang Mai, but was born and raised and had his own company in Bangkok before selling it. His Thai is Bangkok Thai (which may be relevant to some regarding dialect). I always see polite interaction from him. He nods and smiles to people..yes, even the security guards..and, shock horror, even holds open doors for others. Im sorry, but i do disagree very much your view about all Thai people. Some of course are rude. I have also met some rude westerners..but that doesnt make me discriminate and tar all westerners or certain nationalities with the same brush. ..and no..i dont wear rose-tinted "all of Thailand and its people are perfect" glasses either.

[bonobo]

I meant this as a response to teh door-opening thing as I found, at least from myobservatiosn, that the posts which stated that Thais do not respond to people holding open doors to them to be false.  But to broaden this, "politeness" is a matter of cultural upbringing.  What is polite to a Westerner may not be even on the horizon for an Asian, and what is polite for an Asian my not be on the horizon of a Westerner.

I consider myself polite.  But sometimes I am outdone by Thai friends.  I was walking with a close friend, (a wealthy "hi-so," to get that stereotype out of the way.)  In the middle of our conversation, he held up his hand and told me to wait a second, then he walked off the sidewalk where an old woman was trying to push some sort of pushcart across the street.  He took it, stopped the traffic, and pushed it across the street for her, then turned over the handles and waied her before coming back. He got back and continued his point as if there had been no interuption.

"Polite" me?  I never considered helping.  I barely noticed the woman.  he saw her and just did it, despite the obvious difference in Thai social standing between the two of them.

 

[bonobo]

btw Bonobo, you are surely a nice and sincere contemporary individual, but your investigations makes me have a giggle...

Yea, it is a little goofy!  

And it is hardly a competent investigation; it is more of a series of observations.

[Maizefarmer]

The reply I tend to offer when asked if "Thai's this that or the other ......." is, treat and think of them as you would a peer (or any person actually) from back home - they are human and things like manners (another word for courtesy or respect?) is as much part of a Thai's upbringing as it is of a Westerner' upbringing.

Holding a door, giving up a seat on the bus to a Thai lady (or monk) - of course they appreciate and recognise it ... and so will other Thai's who see it done (can't do our ex-pat reputation any harm can it).

Edited July 6, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[harleyclarkey]

About 3 years ago National Geographic did a survey of politeness in 30 major cities around the world. A female reporter would drop some papers and see if people helped her pick them up. Reporters observed whether people opened the door for others, and they went into Starbucks and noted if the staff said thank you, have a nice day, etc.

Bangkok came fairly low down in the results. The city that came top was New York, which I gather is an improbable place to top a politeness index. Most of the top fifteen cities were European or North American. Most of the bottom 15 were Asian or East European. Clearly there was cultural bias in the research method.

What Henry Alleman says may be true in a general sense. However, I think you'd need to survey Thai people as to how important they think holding doors open or responding to an obligatory salute from a security guard might be. I think they'd want to see evidence of positive respect shown to the elderly, tolerance for error, a calm disposition, etc.

While I think of it - where in the world do adults stand up for children? Is Thailand unique in this? If this were an indicator, how many Western cities would score well on a National Geographic-type survey of politeness?

Mmmm.....always said by New Yorkers with total sincerity!!

A couple of years back in San Fran (surely a polite city??) I had just paid for my goods. The girl on the till said something......i didn't hear her.

Sorry, I beg your pardon (yes! I am supremely polite) to which she literally barked and shouted at me...."I SAID ...HAVE A NICE DAY" Said with depth and feeling....but not in the way intended as per the words.

She must have graduated from the Bob Monkhouse school of sincerity....we Irish and Uk know what that means!

[thaihome]

About 3 years ago National Geographic did a survey of politeness in 30 major cities around the world. A female reporter would drop some papers and see if people helped her pick them up. Reporters observed whether people opened the door for others, and they went into Starbucks and noted if the staff said thank you, have a nice day, etc.

Bangkok came fairly low down in the results. The city that came top was New York, which I gather is an improbable place to top a politeness index. Most of the top fifteen cities were European or North American. Most of the bottom 15 were Asian or East European. Clearly there was cultural bias in the research method.

What Henry Alleman says may be true in a general sense. However, I think you'd need to survey Thai people as to how important they think holding doors open or responding to an obligatory salute from a security guard might be. I think they'd want to see evidence of positive respect shown to the elderly, tolerance for error, a calm disposition, etc.

While I think of it - where in the world do adults stand up for children? Is Thailand unique in this? If this were an indicator, how many Western cities would score well on a National Geographic-type survey of politeness?

This whole thread seems to based on the fact that “politeness” is some universally understood behavior. Politeness is a cultural thing. People seem to go on and on about “common decent human behavior”. There is no such thing. Our interactions with each other are culturally learned behaviors. So many of the posters here just can’t get seem to do anything but judge the behaviors of other cultures against their own standards.

Th

[oldsparrow]

About 3 years ago National Geographic did a survey of politeness in 30 major cities around the world. A female reporter would drop some papers and see if people helped her pick them up. Reporters observed whether people opened the door for others, and they went into Starbucks and noted if the staff said thank you, have a nice day, etc. Bangkok came fairly low down in the results. The city that came top was New York, which I gather is an improbable place to top a politeness index. Most of the top fifteen cities were European or North American. Most of the bottom 15 were Asian or East European. Clearly there was cultural bias in the research method. What Henry Alleman says may be true in a general sense. However, I think you'd need to survey Thai people as to how important they think holding doors open or responding to an obligatory salute from a security guard might be. I think they'd want to see evidence of positive respect shown to the elderly, tolerance for error, a calm disposition, etc. While I think of it - where in the world do adults stand up for children? Is Thailand unique in this? If this were an indicator, how many Western cities would score well on a National Geographic-type survey of politeness?

This whole thread seems to based on the fact that "politeness" is some universally understood behavior. Politeness is a cultural thing. People seem to go on and on about "common decent human behavior". There is no such thing. Our interactions with each other are culturally learned behaviors. So many of the posters here just can't get seem to do anything but judge the behaviors of other cultures against their own standards. Th

According to Napoleon Shagnon, politeness of the Yanomamo tribemen in greeting people is to "blow his nose into his hand, wipe them with their hair beofre gripping the guest." Manner is pretty much subjective, I think civilisation also althought many people love to evaluate it by material achievement.

[oldsparrow]

"Women, seeing me holding the door, tend to quicken their steps and sort of slide through the door, half bowing/waiing as they enter. Men merely tend to nod to me and/or say thanks."

Here it shows social interaction culture, man is superior so the woman feel like being served more than man. This remind me of:

1. Once in the office elevator. There were boss, me and a lady clerk. The boss was near the panel and he push the bottton. The lady lighten her "emberassement" said "I let the boos do it". The boss said "It's gent- ness."

2. The film judgement at Nuremberg: Spencer Tracy, the judge, grab his luggage instead of letting the German hotel lady carrying it.

[Heng]

Not only do I say thank you, but I give a firm double pinch of the cheeks (face) Italian style.

[apetley]

Thai's aren't going to hold the door for you the same as they ignore whats going behind them on the road. Thats how it is, you will either have to accept it or get over it.

I do accept it but isn't it a shame that the majority do recognise good manners by saying thanks when you hold a door open for them but do not show it by holding the door for others.

[sendbaht]

I get a thanks, a bow of the head form most folks I hold the door open for. Infact, women shuffle their feet real fast and nod when I hold the door open and to let them go first.

Also, maybe I am lucky but it seems most of the time if a Thai is going though a open door they turn and make sure I get though too. Very polite race I think.

[Heng]

You should see the retards in my neighborhood back in Austin. I'd say 80% of folks wear shoes (not even lounging slippers mind you) in their own homes! These are the same shoes they trod all over town in.

% corrected

Edited August 17, 2009 by Heng

[simon43]

try to step out an elevator when Thais want to go in... sorry for being off-top but its very similar to the "door case"

[\quote]

The trick if you are already in the elevator is to wait until the doors open and then scream very loudly!! I tried this and all the Thais waiting to enter the lift ran away.....

Simon

[Heng]