The Thai People

[ozzieovaseas]

In witnessing the constant tide of vitriol and criticism spewing forth from the keyboards of (some) T.V members towards all things thai, i would like to follow through on my pledge to post something positive for a change.

So,here is my top ten list of things that are "right" about thais...in no particular order of importance.

Feel free to add,critise or flame me for my rose coloured glasses...whatever..im sure you will..but sadly,considering the majority of attitudes on expats here, i presume this will wind up being a "titanic" topic!!

1. Respect for elders:Adults have it and it is also taught to children (unlike most westerners children who will tell their elders to F.O).Granted there is no welfare system BUT thais take the responsibility of looking after extended family and elders WITHOUT wingeing about the burden...Easy for us..just chuck 'em in a home.

2. Self Respect:Do you ever here people swearing loudly in public? on a train?..rampant drunkeness and fights all hours of the day? People stumbling around drunk and abusive,TRYING to provoke violence and fights because they are bored and want some "fun"?

3. Self Restraint:How many hugely obese thais do you see?..bingeing on food and alcohol for their sole means of comfort? How many suffer the extreme heat and pressures of society (being poor and opressed) WITHOUT completely loosing the plot and taking it out on anyone and everyone within close vacinity?

4. Sacrifice: Thais make many..eg..Family,beliefs..How many westerners are so dedicated to their beliefs that they erect wats EVEYWHERE and continue to donate to the cause..even though they themselves are poor?...very commendable.

5. Dedication:Just one example:Farmers doing it tough on the land..WITHOUT tractors and mod-con machinery AND doing it all for barely just enough to live on. How many of our farmers could be bothered doing that without being able to get the handouts,holidays & hi-life,big houses,boats,investment houses.ect

6. THAT smile:Those of you who say "we ALL know what that smile means",are fools to themselves.What profit to someone who passes you on the street and smiles for no apparent reason,when they have NO chance of "getting" jack sqwatt out of you"?.Just smile back FF'S!..doesnt mean they all want to rip you off!!!

6. Food:Thais are definately talented in this department by anyones standards.

7. Mai-pen-Rai:Sure it enrages us at times,but im sure you would agree a good dose could do wonders for our own countries.

8. Talent:Patience,creativity,making handicrafts ect,and the ability to create something out of nothing are second to none..in my books anyway...oh and thai massage..mmm

9. Intuition:You may put crap on thais for a lot of reasons,BUT they can sum up a person,their moods, and know how to act accordingly..in my opinion.

10.Versatility:The ability to dream up new and ingenious ways of making a buck...well, just to give you buggers SOMETHING to whinge about!!

[Texpat]

Why do so many TD posters find it necessary to pick a side?

Seems almost everyone either LOVES Thais and Thailand or thinks it's a garbage heap.

The truth is in the middle and you waste your time and energy trying to convince each other.

[ozzieovaseas]

Not trying to "convince" anyone mate..just having a go at debating the positives instead of focusing on varying degrees of negativity...which i have sometimes been guilty of doing.

[basjke]

In witnessing the constant tide of vitriol and criticism spewing forth from the keyboards of (some) T.V members towards all things thai, i would like to follow through on my pledge to post something positive for a change.

So,here is my top ten list of things that are "right" about thais...in no particular order of importance.

Feel free to add,critise or flame me for my rose coloured glasses...whatever..im sure you will..but sadly,considering the majority of attitudes on expats here, i presume this will wind up being a "titanic" topic!!

1. Respect for elders:Adults have it and it is also taught to children (unlike most westerners children who will tell their elders to F.O).Granted there is no welfare system BUT thais take the responsibility of looking after extended family and elders WITHOUT wingeing about the burden...Easy for us..just chuck 'em in a home.

2. Self Respect:Do you ever here people swearing loudly in public? on a train?..rampant drunkeness and fights all hours of the day? People stumbling around drunk and abusive,TRYING to provoke violence and fights because they are bored and want some "fun"?

3. Self Restraint:How many hugely obese thais do you see?..bingeing on food and alcohol for their sole means of comfort? How many suffer the extreme heat and pressures of society (being poor and opressed) WITHOUT completely loosing the plot and taking it out on anyone and everyone within close vacinity?

4. Sacrifice: Thais make many..eg..Family,beliefs..How many westerners are so dedicated to their beliefs that they erect wats EVEYWHERE and continue to donate to the cause..even though they themselves are poor?...very commendable.

5. Dedication:Just one example:Farmers doing it tough on the land..WITHOUT tractors and mod-con machinery AND doing it all for barely just enough to live on. How many of our farmers could be bothered doing that without being able to get the handouts,holidays & hi-life,big houses,boats,investment houses.ect

6. THAT smile:Those of you who say "we ALL know what that smile means",are fools to themselves.What profit to someone who passes you on the street and smiles for no apparent reason,when they have NO chance of "getting" jack sqwatt out of you"?.Just smile back FF'S!..doesnt mean they all want to rip you off!!!

6. Food:Thais are definately talented in this department by anyones standards.

7. Mai-pen-Rai:Sure it enrages us at times,but im sure you would agree a good dose could do wonders for our own countries.

8. Talent:Patience,creativity,making handicrafts ect,and the ability to create something out of nothing are second to none..in my books anyway...oh and thai massage..mmm

9. Intuition:You may put crap on thais for a lot of reasons,BUT they can sum up a person,their moods, and know how to act accordingly..in my opinion.

10.Versatility:The ability to dream up new and ingenious ways of making a buck...well, just to give you buggers SOMETHING to whinge about!!

My reply on point 1 to 10 .In the western world it was the same 100 years ago,except form the wats that were churches,but they got smarter.Same will happen in thailand and probably at a faster pace then in the western world

[Jingthing]

Seems almost everyone either LOVES Thais and Thailand or thinks it's a garbage heap.

It's a lovable garbage heap, also very addictive to certain people ...

[cpofc]

In Australia today it is virtually impossible for people to gather in numbers anywhere, where alcohol is invovled and there is no violence, and serious violence too. The melbourne CBD is becoming a 'No Go Zone. You cannot even organise a private party at your home for your kids 18th or 21st birthday without having it gatecrashed by knife and baseball bat wielding thugs.

last time i went back to Aust for a visit, I arranged to meet a few old mates at my local Returned Servicemen's Club, I walked through the front door and what was going on? A fight.

What i like about where i live and the people i associate with on a daily basis (all Thai) is that we drink often, very often in fact. We get ourselves completely written off. In the past 10 years I have only seen one 'blue', but it did not eventuate to fisticufs though, and that was a lazy young bloke who won't get a job who thought he could come into our group and get a few free drinks whilst at the same time speaking down to his elders. But that's the only time. My mate told him to piss off or he would knock his block off. I go out to some huge affairs, hunfreds and hundreds of Thais, all on the piss, tanked up but all having a ball. Singing, dancing laughing. Getting the children involved. Men and women all sitting, dancing together and interacting with one another. Not a dance floor full of shielas dancing with each other whilst the men congregrate at the bar oggling them. No big Maori or Samoan bouncers cracking skulls and applying their own dress codes at the door!

I know there is violence here, alot of it. it is not Shangri-La. But I can only tell you what my observations are of where i live and the places i go and the people I socialise with, on a daily basis. it helps if you don't take yourself too seriously and can laugh at yourself BTW.

The Thais, on the whole, unlike many farangs, do not usually get loud, ugly, aggressive and nasty when they have a few drinks - They have not lost the ability to have fun, without breaking something or someone, and i reckon thats what i truly like the most.

If anyone deserves to be stressed out, road raging bastards it should be the thais, yet they cope so much better than we do.

i enjoy getting on the piss with my thai friends, where having fun is compulosry. it is such a departure from the 'bloodhouses' that exist in my country today, where a sidways glance can get your jugular sliced open with a beer glass, in the wink of an eye.

[eek]

For me one of the things i love is the general attitude towards kids. They are welcomed, rather than shunned. You dont see an annoyed face just because someone has a baby, kiddy, buggy etc in tow. Quite the opposite actually. Smiling faces and encouragement. This warmth does happen in other countries, but in the UK, imo, most people without kids seemed to get pretty ticked off if any children were around.

[hansnl]

Any country, any people, have positive and negative points.

You and I probably left our country for various reasons.

A lot of us also promote the new country we live in and rake up the negatives about the old country we lived in.

Why?

Probably to prove ourselves that we did the right thing.

If I run over the list, it is quite easy to debase all the values you hurrah about.

It is also quite easy to supply a list with things that are very negative in my eyes.

But I could do the same about my own country.

[cpofc]

Any country, any people, have positive and negative points.

You and I probably left our country for various reasons.

A lot of us also promote the new country we live in and rake up the negatives about the old country we lived in.

Why?

Probably to prove ourselves that we did the right thing.

If I run over the list, it is quite easy to debase all the values you hurrah about.

It is also quite easy to supply a list with things that are very negative in my eyes.

But I could do the same about my own country.

mate i will accept anything you have to say about YOURSELF, personally, and your own observations, but don't <deleted> even begin to think you can provide answers for me or talk on my behalf. Don't even think about it.

Edited July 7, 2009 by cpofc

[teddy_bare]

I think this a a troll but,

In witnessing the constant tide of vitriol and criticism spewing forth from the keyboards of (some) T.V members towards all things thai, i would like to follow through on my pledge to post something positive for a change.

So,here is my top ten list of things that are "right" about thais...in no particular order of importance.

Feel free to add,critise or flame me for my rose coloured glasses...whatever..im sure you will..but sadly,considering the majority of attitudes on expats here, i presume this will wind up being a "titanic" topic!!

1. Respect for elders:Adults have it and it is also taught to children (unlike most westerners children who will tell their elders to F.O).Granted there is no welfare system BUT thais take the responsibility of looking after extended family and elders WITHOUT wingeing about the burden...Easy for us..just chuck 'em in a home. IME True

2. Self Respect:Do you ever here people swearing loudly in public? on a train?..rampant drunkeness and fights all hours of the day? People stumbling around drunk and abusive,TRYING to provoke violence and fights because they are bored and want some "fun"? No, but I have seen a lot of drunk men in villages who get pissed loudly and quietly and beat the wife behind closed doors.

3. Self Restraint:How many hugely obese thais do you see?..bingeing on food and alcohol for their sole means of comfort? How many suffer the extreme heat and pressures of society (being poor and opressed) WITHOUT completely loosing the plot and taking it out on anyone and everyone within close vacinity? Check Out the WHO stats on Thais and obesity. One of the fastest growing issues, that and underage drinking

4. Sacrifice: Thais make many..eg..Family,beliefs..How many westerners are so dedicated to their beliefs that they erect wats EVEYWHERE and continue to donate to the cause..even though they themselves are poor?...very commendable. MMMM, always good to have a option if your life on this earth is crap

5. Dedication:Just one example:Farmers doing it tough on the land..WITHOUT tractors and mod-con machinery AND doing it all for barely just enough to live on. How many of our farmers could be bothered doing that without being able to get the handouts,holidays & hi-life,big houses,boats,investment houses.ect That'll be called survival. As you pointed out there is no social safety net

6. THAT smile:Those of you who say "we ALL know what that smile means",are fools to themselves.What profit to someone who passes you on the street and smiles for no apparent reason,when they have NO chance of "getting" jack sqwatt out of you"?.Just smile back FF'S!..doesnt mean they all want to rip you off!!! Smiling can be used as a non verbal defensive system that invaribly disfusses potential face loosing situations

6. Food:Thais are definately talented in this department by anyones standards. Thai food has a high level of pesticides and they add MSG to the food by the bucket load. It is also high in cholestrol. Go ask any Thai doctor about high cholestrol in Thais. Mine told me his was 300 (normal range is up to 200) He wasn't fat and laughed it off. Go figure!

7. Mai-pen-Rai:Sure it enrages us at times,but im sure you would agree a good dose could do wonders for our own countries. It certainly reduces the blood pressure, unless you really want a answer today.

8. Talent:Patience,creativity,making handicrafts ect,and the ability to create something out of nothing are second to none..in my books anyway...oh and thai massage..mmm. I always found it funny that Thai artists could produce such good craftwork, yet regularly fail to join 2 bits of road together without a one inch difference in height. As for making something out of nothing, call that survival. thai massage are just Jeab mak mak and according to some professional, dangerous

9. Intuition:You may put crap on thais for a lot of reasons,BUT they can sum up a person,their moods, and know how to act accordingly..in my opinion. maybe you are see through

10.Versatility:The ability to dream up new and ingenious ways of making a buck...well, just to give you buggers SOMETHING to whinge about!!

I think that will be copy a new and ingenious way to make a buck. You'd be surprised if you saw a business plan coming from a Thai. I'll give them 10 out 10 for tenasity, but 0 for forward thinking.

I love Thailand warts and all, but you are away off the mark on some of your observations. I just accept what my previous experience has taught me. If I order something I ensure all the relevant questions are asked to pinpoint what I am getting, when and who to call if it doesn't. just all the normal things you expect to happen in most Western countries as a matter of course. Again, from my experience of those countries. I dont try to be overly annoying, I just want to make sure I am getting what I ordered. I still often get the Amazing Thailand feeling especially when doing something new.

It might help to swap the rose tinted googles for the shIT coloured ones some elements of Thai soceity has to live with.

Edited July 7, 2009 by teddy_bare

[ozzieovaseas]

Seems almost everyone either LOVES Thais and Thailand or thinks it's a garbage heap.

It's a lovable garbage heap, also very addictive to certain people ...

One mans trash is another mans treasure, eh Jingthing?

basjke: Yes,sadly LOS will eventually become like all western countries, already is,judgeing by the ratio of ownership of new cars against those that cant even afford a bike and live in sub-standard housing...Sad thing is that our western countries have been a considerable contributing factor in this..to some extent anyway.

[ozzieovaseas]

Yeh teddy bare..i have also noticed all of your observations..yes,they are relevant to but as stated earlier i was trying (for once) to come up with multiple positives about living here..

after all..we all choose to live here and its nice to think of the positives

If you think i was trolling then i dont know why you bothered to waste your time..

dont want to dissapoint you so here you go.....

[Zombienation]

Having seen plenty of fights amongst Thai's at concerts and quite a few gun fights amongst Thai teens in Bangkok, I'd say that whilst you might not get the same pub culture as in the west, violence (some of it extreme) happens regularly.

And I know plenty of obese Thai's...take a wander around any of the Bangkok Uni's....

Just a couple of points.

[loong]

1. Respect for elders:

It is a sad fact that this is changing, particularly with males. Respect was always beaten into children, doesn't seem to work so well nowadays.

Do you think Thais don't complain? Although many will accept the responsibility of caring for parents, they certainly DO whinge about it!

2. Rarely a day goes by without me hearing a slanging match in this village. To be honest, it's mostly a non drunk wife screaming at her drunk husband. I've seen plenty of drunken fights here - much more than I ever saw in the Uk, but most Thais that I know will sit and drink until they are incapable of walking, let alone fighting.

3. Self Restraint: Most Thais that I know do not have any. They are only restrained by the amount of Baht in their pocket. Plenty of binge drinkers, in fact I know very few Thais that are moderate drinkers. They are either teetotal or they drink until they fall over. The moderate drinkers seem to drink beer, not Lao Kow.

Binge eating is definitely not Thai style, but they seem to be constantly eating and picking at something. Thais are getting fatter and lack the self control to diet, much the same as westerners. Take a look at how many clinics and wonder products there are that promise weight loss with no effort.

4. Sacrifice: Thais think that I'm a Christian because I am British. I am not, and I don't pretend to be, I just try to be a good person. I think that I know more about Buddhism than most Thais. They pretend to be Buddhists, they do not live the lives of religious people. They are more superstitious than anything else.

They make a donation that they cannot always afford to salve their consciences.

5. Dedication:Just one example:Farmers doing it tough on the land..WITHOUT tractors and mod-con machinery

I think that I've only ever once seen a farmer plough his field using a buffalo. They all use the small iron buffalo or tractor. I've never seen rice de-husked except by machinery. Usually rice is planted and cut by hand, but if a machine is available and affordable to do the task, they will use it.

[loong]

6. THAT smile: Smiling is good for you and it costs nothing. Something other countries could do well to learn from Thailand.

6. Food:(Two 6's?)

Love Thai food (mostly)!

7. Mai-pen-Rai: Sometimes good, sometimes not.

8. Talent: Some Thais are very talented in arts and crafts, same as some farang. Unfortunately, many are totally untalented in their field of work - Electricians for example.

9. Intuition:No more than any other race.

10.Versatility:The ability to dream up new and ingenious ways of making a buck..

Really? What innovations from Thailand have benefited the world? Adaptability - yes, versatility - no.

[AnnieLim]

Ozzieovaseas, that's very kind of you to say such nice things about the lovely Thai people.

[ccarbaugh]

I agree with all that has been said. For quite some time, I, too, have

felt the need to make generalizations about Thailand, Thai society,...

Slowly, I am coming to the realization that all perceptions are actually

self-reflection. The old saying "the oppposite is also true." applies.

I wonder why we (humankind,) feel the constant need to categorize,

generalize, judge, ... when the whole world is just an artifact of our

own (spiritual) existence.

Anywho, everybody is here for something - I'm here for the

low cost of living and the beautiful ladies.

[glegolo]

In witnessing the constant tide of vitriol and criticism spewing forth from the keyboards of (some) T.V members towards all things thai, i would like to follow through on my pledge to post something positive for a change.

So,here is my top ten list of things that are "right" about thais...in no particular order of importance.

Feel free to add,critise or flame me for my rose coloured glasses...whatever..im sure you will..but sadly,considering the majority of attitudes on expats here, i presume this will wind up being a "titanic" topic!!

1. Respect for elders:Adults have it and it is also taught to children (unlike most westerners children who will tell their elders to F.O).Granted there is no welfare system BUT thais take the responsibility of looking after extended family and elders WITHOUT wingeing about the burden...Easy for us..just chuck 'em in a home.

2. Self Respect:Do you ever here people swearing loudly in public? on a train?..rampant drunkeness and fights all hours of the day? People stumbling around drunk and abusive,TRYING to provoke violence and fights because they are bored and want some "fun"?

3. Self Restraint:How many hugely obese thais do you see?..bingeing on food and alcohol for their sole means of comfort? How many suffer the extreme heat and pressures of society (being poor and opressed) WITHOUT completely loosing the plot and taking it out on anyone and everyone within close vacinity?

4. Sacrifice: Thais make many..eg..Family,beliefs..How many westerners are so dedicated to their beliefs that they erect wats EVEYWHERE and continue to donate to the cause..even though they themselves are poor?...very commendable.

5. Dedication:Just one example:Farmers doing it tough on the land..WITHOUT tractors and mod-con machinery AND doing it all for barely just enough to live on. How many of our farmers could be bothered doing that without being able to get the handouts,holidays & hi-life,big houses,boats,investment houses.ect

6. THAT smile:Those of you who say "we ALL know what that smile means",are fools to themselves.What profit to someone who passes you on the street and smiles for no apparent reason,when they have NO chance of "getting" jack sqwatt out of you"?.Just smile back FF'S!..doesnt mean they all want to rip you off!!!

6. Food:Thais are definately talented in this department by anyones standards.

7. Mai-pen-Rai:Sure it enrages us at times,but im sure you would agree a good dose could do wonders for our own countries.

8. Talent:Patience,creativity,making handicrafts ect,and the ability to create something out of nothing are second to none..in my books anyway...oh and thai massage..mmm

9. Intuition:You may put crap on thais for a lot of reasons,BUT they can sum up a person,their moods, and know how to act accordingly..in my opinion.

10.Versatility:The ability to dream up new and ingenious ways of making a buck...well, just to give you buggers SOMETHING to whinge about!!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Good and nice post, I like it, even though I am one of those that gives my critics to the thais.... have a couple of comments though!!

First of all the truth as texpat says lays probably in the middle. But I firmly believe that there is one truth for the bigger cities and one truth

for the countryside. It is exactly the same home, or what?????????????????

1) 100% agree

2) self-respect.... cannot comment as selfrespect for Thai is COMPLETELY different than what it means to us falangs I am sure!!!

3) Self Restraint - agree

4) YES, but are we talking about boys or girls here?????????? According to my believes the girls is the ones that are disegnated

to "take care", whilst the boys are NOT..... boys can do whatever they want, and it is so sad for the son, he is poor... But hey,

let our daughter go working.....

5) this is BULL, falang-farmers work all year through.. here I do not see any work at all between crop and harwest.... but I see a lot

of sleeping and sitting and chit chat.....

6) Smiles... do not even go there - it is a culture thing meaning everything from -"plse do not let me be involved..." up to -" get lost

I do not care about you anyhow" further on to a friendly mean of tool.. but smiles here means A LOT......

6a) Food - I have now been living and seeing and sometimes eaten the food that Thais are making for a year!!! I must say that the variaty

of taste and smell that we falang have with our food is about 1000 year ahead of the Thai food. In my opinion, the food is more or less

the same, they just showel in a lot of chili and everybody is happy..... no!!! food is not what Thai will be remembered by...

7) Mai-pen-Rai - sorry, do you mean that this is some kind of thank you.... a thank you, that I have been missing a lot up here in isaan, and it is

not just me, all falangs reacts for the fact that Thai seldom says thank you at all.... sorry if I give wrong answer here to you.

8) who do not agree there 100%

9) good for you . I have only heard two different comments about how falangs looks like, and that is -"he never smiles - he is so serious" if this is

suming up, so be it..... Good point though if you have experienced something else yourself.

10) hahahah - yes, they are forced to do something, and they do it good I think too. But in this respect sorry that Thais have this way of spending their

money. Like one Thaigirl explained to me, when I asked her why Thai work 2 days and than stayed home and didnt bother to go to work. She said;

- "falang work to get a holiday, Thai work for food"

Sorry if I have been too negative. I like all the comments you made, the truth is not just onesided it is different. As I said ealier, You may expereince one truth

in some bigger city and I can experience another here in Isaan.... But lets agree... Thailand is fantastic and I really love to live here.

Glegolo

Edited July 8, 2009 by glegolo

[glegolo]

I agree with all that has been said. For quite some time, I, too, have

felt the need to make generalizations about Thailand, Thai society,...

Slowly, I am coming to the realization that all perceptions are actually

self-reflection. The old saying "the oppposite is also true." applies.

I wonder why we (humankind,) feel the constant need to categorize,

generalize, judge, ... when the whole world is just an artifact of our

own (spiritual) existence.

Anywho, everybody is here for something - I'm here for the

low cost of living and the beautiful ladies.

-------------------------------------

ccarbaugh'..... hahahah I love your ending of your post.... Who can say that they

are not....... and also now I also have 29 posts....

Glegolo

[soundman]

Not a Pattaya News Clipping.

Moved to general.

[robblok]

I love Thailand, but im not blind to its faults either. The thing is its easier to complain about things then to write down what you love.

I can complain about Thailand but i can do the same about Holland.

Just put it this way if i hated this country i would be long gone and home.

In the end there is no such thing as perfection.

[ThaiBasil]

I only believe your point about drunk Thai people is a bit out of place. Have seen lots of fights between drunk thai teenagers and know of some thai men hitting their wives and children when drunk. I haven't heard this much about foreigners, but do believe they are more rude and impolite when drunk, but that is just personal experience.

What I also find so graet about Thai people is that most of the day they are busy with everything besides their job. Food, house, garden, family, religion. Back home when I came back from work I just relaxed for at least an hour, cooked some food, watched tv, did some things I had to take care of and than went to bed, I need my time to be alone sometimes and able to relax.

[maccaroni man]

I only believe your point about drunk Thai people is a bit out of place. Have seen lots of fights between drunk thai teenagers and know of some thai men hitting their wives and children when drunk. I haven't heard this much about foreigners, but do believe they are more rude and impolite when drunk, but that is just personal experience.

What I also find so graet about Thai people is that most of the day they are busy with everything besides their job. Food, house, garden, family, religion. Back home when I came back from work I just relaxed for at least an hour, cooked some food, watched tv, did some things I had to take care of and than went to bed, I need my time to be alone sometimes and able to relax.

I would add they have the greatest ability to avoid the obvious, case in point; the owner of the land directly in front of my gate has his helper dump garbage on his land rather than pay the 200 baht at the dump. Do you think the worker notices that he is dumping all this garbage directly in front of my entrance? No way and when i have my thai staff point out that there is a broad stretch of land away from my gate to do his dumping he looks at them like they are from mars. garbage heap? thats they way they like it.

[Gerontion]

11. The ability not to turn every thread on Pantip into a tedious, bleating. whinging, whining, moaning torrent of <deleted>.

[Gary A]

I moved to Thailand in 1991. Unfortunately things here have changed a LOT in that time. Older people are not respected or cared for by the family unit as in the past. The rival schools did not have bloody battles in the past. Crime existed but not to this extent. This sad trend is not just here in Thailand. The spare the rod spoil the child believers have been defeated. The permissive parents created the youth of today. Children need to be taught discipline and they no longer receive that discipline.

OK, the bleeding heart liberals can go ahead and flame me to their heart's content. YOU people have caused the breakdown in society.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Gary A