Noong Krup?

[Lost in LOS]

I was always told when calling over a waiter etc to use naawng krup, since most people are younger than me : (

my friend, when having coffee with a hi-so businessman in Bangkok called the waitress over [he is 58 and waitress 30?] using naawng krup and the hi-so was horrified and said that is rude and it should be khun krup. - my friend also said the waitress was giving him bad looks and ignoring him after that

please explain as i dont want to be insulting people

[Namsai]

I was always told when calling over a waiter etc to use naawng krup, since most people are younger than me : (

my friend, when having coffee with a hi-so businessman in Bangkok called the waitress over [he is 58 and waitress 30?] using naawng krup and the hi-so was horrified and said that is rude and it should be khun krup. - my friend also said the waitress was giving him bad looks and ignoring him after that

please explain as i dont want to be insulting people

Naaw krub it ok not it mean not polite. It the similar for the people don t know each other. But the word Kun Krub for the person you respect. In Thai land when we saw the people the younger we will call Naaw. But The owner of the resturant we will call Kun it doesn t matter younger or older.

Also the person important seem like the kid the owner business we will call Kun too.

[agent69]

it's informal, so understandable that your hi-so friend reacted like that.

[aircut]

it's informal, so understandable that your hi-so friend reacted like that.

Exactly as the definition of your "hi-so" friend is relative also the addressing of someone as Nong is relative.... Think Thai before speak Thai is a good rule to follow.....

[Barabbas]

For me both คุณครับ or ขอโทษครับ (khun khrup or kho thot khrup - like "excuse me") work fine. I've had my share of mishaps with age and addressing people like this, so in general I'm trying to be as neutral as possible.

[Lost in LOS]

thanks for all your help. from now on i will use Khun Krub, better safe than sorry. I am just surprised all the thai people i have been around for the last 3+ years never mentioned with I used to say it but I guess that because they are Thai and all things are ok, whether they really are or not.

thanks

[frenchFARANGbkk]

Hi,

Sorry but I don't understand, if she is a waitress, why not call her with NONG KRUP ?

I agree with the owner of the restaurant being called KHUN KRUP, but the waitress ?!

Thanks.

[kriswillems]

When I go to a simple restaurant and the waiter of waitress is younger than me I use น้องครับ.

In an expensive restaurant or when the waiter is older I use ขอโทษครับ.

I see Thai people use น้องครับ all the time, also in more expensive places, especially when they are much older than the waiter. I never saw anyone getting upset about that, although it might be not very polite.

I think that hi-so friend overreacted a bit (.... or another possibility is that my friends are all lo-so).

[meadish_sweetball]

Seems to me like yet another occasion where the foreigner is held to a different standard of behaviour and politeness than the locals.

I have heard a similar thing a few years ago as well though; a Thai friend of mine who worked for an old Swedish lady related to me how she was horrified to hear the old Swedish lady address the waiter at a restaurant with 'nawng kha' as well.

And of course, she did not tell her boss directly about this...

[kriswillems]

I have heard a similar thing a few years ago as well though; a Thai friend of mine who worked for an old Swedish lady related to me how she was horrified to hear the old Swedish lady address the waiter at a restaurant with 'nawng kha' as well.

Well that's a bit different situation: "boss - younger employee" vs. "customer - younger waitress".

At work nobody here calls younger people just น้อง. We use names or sometimes น้อง+name.

When you know the name of somebody you're expected to use that or use that together with น้อง (if he/she is younger) or คุณ+name if you work in an office.

As a customer in a restaurant you don't know the name of the waiter.

Edited July 17, 2009 by kriswillems

[krading]

Maybe 30 is a little old to be called nong, maybe working in a hi-so place has given her aspirations but I think Meadish is on the money with this one. My gf uses both nong and pee without offending the staff.

[kriswillems]

Mmmmm, maybe next I'll try to use "hey you! you! you!!!" (that seems to be a popular way to call people here in Thailand)

[krading]

Maybe "Hello darling."

[frenchFARANGbkk]

Mmmmm, maybe next I'll try to use "hey you! you! you!!!" (that seems to be a popular way to call people here in Thailand)

Even just: YOU ! As some people to whom i would like to show some manners (if we were not in Thailand!) often call foreigners...

So, calling any waiter NONG seems ok finaly ?

Thanks.

Edited July 17, 2009 by frenchFARANGbkk

[DavidHouston]

For a resolution to this "Khun" question, please see http://www.kosanathai.com/tvcupdated/view_...=Thai%20Airways

[Johpa]

I have found that Bangkok folks do not use the familial pronouns such as noong, phii, or lung as commonly as do most others, especially those from more traditional smaller towns and villages where people attempt to place just about everyone into some sort of social grid. My close friends and family, all northern folk (Khon Muang), would feel quite at ease calling someone a generation younger noong in a restaurant setting, or even in a business setting. And I have also always used the term in such a situation. But I have also found myself unexpectedly in hot water when I addressed a younger colleague from Bangkok as noong. So I have learned that when I find myself in the presence of "Khon Thai", for that is how Khon Muang and Khon Isaan refer to Bangkok folks, I take on added deference and bring my speech up a notch or two in formality. There is the old adage amongst the Khon Muang about folks from Bangkok that they are "khop kan yaak".

[Barabbas]

IMHO, formality is never too much of a good thing here in paradise. Whoever you are and whatever your social status is it's always better to be overly polite than to be known as another stupid farang who doesn't know his left toe from his right eye.

And speaking of อิสาน - I had the misfortune to address to a waiter as บักน้อย - which is ok in Laos (I'm on ok terms with Lao language, not the Esarn dialect, having studied it at college, although I admit this was a tad too much - I was immediately shushed by my mother-in-law, who's a native Esarn Thammasart-educated lady. She said that unless you've known the guy since the time he wore breeches, you shouldn't talk down to him like that.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Barabbas

[meadish_sweetball]

I have heard a similar thing a few years ago as well though; a Thai friend of mine who worked for an old Swedish lady related to me how she was horrified to hear the old Swedish lady address the waiter at a restaurant with 'nawng kha' as well.

Well that's a bit different situation: "boss - younger employee" vs. "customer - younger waitress".

At work nobody here calls younger people just น้อง. We use names or sometimes น้อง+name.

When you know the name of somebody you're expected to use that or use that together with น้อง (if he/she is younger) or คุณ+name if you work in an office.

As a customer in a restaurant you don't know the name of the waiter.

I was probably not clear enough in my post. It was not about how my friend's employer addressed my friend, but about how my friend's employer addressed the waiter at a restaurant where they were having dinner together - i.e. a similar situation to the one described in the OP.

[Lost in LOS]

i am the op and after reading a lot of this i now use khun krup all the time and it works like a charm, so why not. before i got some funny looks, like ohhhhhh a farang, and maybe the waiter didnt react well but this has fixed that. Its khun krup from now on wherever i am in thailand.

thanks for all the serious replies, a pleasant change, I learned a lot and what better place to ask.

I hear foreigners being really rude in America but i think most of the time they dont realize the customs. in Mexico you call the waiter with a kissing sound, try that in most countries, not

Edited July 18, 2009 by Lost in LOS

[Johpa]

One minor footnote, to my aging and rusty ear it sounds a bit awkward to be using the informal familial pronoun noong with the formal particle khrap.

[loong]

Using ขอโทษครับ kŏr tôht kráp doesn't seem quite right to me. Almost as if you are apologising for wanting the attention of a waiter. What are others' thoughts about this?

[Johpa]

Using ขอโทษครับ kŏr tôht kráp doesn't seem quite right to me. Almost as if you are apologising for wanting the attention of a waiter. What are others' thoughts about this?

It is used commonly, just as in English when we say "excuse me" when getting the attention of a waiter. The literal translation of ขอโทษ is a bit more extreme as you are asking for punishment, perhaps a relic of the brutal feudal past, but it is used euphemistically.

[Harcourt]

I've made the mistake of using the wrong title for a person. Reading this thread, I tried to get clarity from my GF....and ended up a little clearer, and a little more bemused and befuddled.

Whereas before I had nong, pi, and khun....I now have ya, na, ba, loong....and it all depends on not only my age, but my parent's age also. It also depends on status, and apparently it also depends on gender...I'm told to err on the side of caution if the title denotes the comparitive age of a woman.

There's a Thai gentleman we know here. GF is 33, I'm 45, our aquaintance is mid to late 50's. She calls him loong, but I musn't because although older than me by at least a decade, he is younger than my father....

"Khun" seems to be the safest allround.

[Johpa]

I've made the mistake of using the wrong title for a person. Reading this thread, I tried to get clarity from my GF....and ended up a little clearer, and a little more bemused and befuddled.

Whereas before I had nong, pi, and khun....I now have ya, na, ba, loong....and it all depends on not only my age, but my parent's age also. It also depends on status, and apparently it also depends on gender...I'm told to err on the side of caution if the title denotes the comparitive age of a woman.

There's a Thai gentleman we know here. GF is 33, I'm 45, our aquaintance is mid to late 50's. She calls him loong, but I musn't because although older than me by at least a decade, he is younger than my father....

"Khun" seems to be the safest allround.

There are a few other twists in the Thai kinship social structure. I am older than my brother-inlaw. But since he is married to my wife's older sister he is my elder (phii) and I am his younger (noong).

As far as your friend, as he is not family and he is only a 1/2 generation older than yourself (10 years) it would be unacceptable for you to call him uncle (lung) and not because of your father's age. However, were we talking about a significantly older woman, then you would take into account the senior/junior status relative to your own mother to decide whether to call her paa (elder) or naa (younger).

Khun is indeed the safest pronoun, especially amongst the Bangkok crowd as the odds are high they are Thai Chinese and not ethnic Thai and so tend to be a bit more formal and less comfortable with Thai kinship terms outside the immediate family. However, in ethnic Thai rural areas it is quite safe to address someone who is clearly, from the perspective of both sides, a full generation older than yourself as lung or khun lung (male) or as khun paa (female).

[rgs2001uk]

Using ขอโทษครับ kŏr tôht kráp doesn't seem quite right to me. Almost as if you are apologising for wanting the attention of a waiter. What are others' thoughts about this?

Agree with you, listening to Thais talking to people in service industries, eg waiter, shop assistants etc it seems to be all about face and place in society.

Most Thais will use the word aw when they want something instead of the more polite kor noi.

Thats if the person they are talking to is lucky, many times I have watched Thais just point at something and then hold up 2 or 3 fingers for the quantity required, eg 2 chin or 3 wii. Almost as if the person serving them is too low to be spoken to.

A Thai explained this to me as, the person is there to serve you and do ask you ask, you dont make polite formal requests for their help, you tell them what to do. My thoughts on this are a different matter.

I would like to know how a so called Hi So Thai would address basically a khon serf, many times I have observed Thais just wave someone over with not so much as a by your leave, also nong would be the ususal address, for someone younger, nong khrap just doesnt sound right.

Of course there are whole sections of this layered language that most people never use, but the diference being all Thais know when and where to apply it.

[Hardie]

Your hi-so guy was just fuc_king with you and asserting his dominance. 'Pee' and 'Nawng' are perfectly acceptable.

[Harcourt]

Using ขอโทษครับ kŏr tôht kráp doesn't seem quite right to me. Almost as if you are apologising for wanting the attention of a waiter. What are others' thoughts about this?

Agree with you, listening to Thais talking to people in service industries, eg waiter, shop assistants etc it seems to be all about face and place in society.

Most Thais will use the word aw when they want something instead of the more polite kor noi.

Thats if the person they are talking to is lucky, many times I have watched Thais just point at something and then hold up 2 or 3 fingers for the quantity required, eg 2 chin or 3 wii. Almost as if the person serving them is too low to be spoken to.

A Thai explained this to me as, the person is there to serve you and do ask you ask, you dont make polite formal requests for their help, you tell them what to do. My thoughts on this are a different matter.

I would like to know how a so called Hi So Thai would address basically a khon serf, many times I have observed Thais just wave someone over with not so much as a by your leave, also nong would be the ususal address, for someone younger, nong khrap just doesnt sound right.

Of course there are whole sections of this layered language that most people never use, but the diference being all Thais know when and where to apply it.

I'm finding this whole thread very interesting.

I wonder if there is a valid analogy here with, lets say English Society (if you're not from the UK, at least you might have an idea what I mean from your own society or television). A high class Lady of England would certainly say "excuse me" and "thankyou" to a servant, whereas a lady of the nuveau riche set might tend to put on superior airs and be impolite to servants....and get away with it because she's paying. The bottom line being, good manners are proper and true high class people are proper.??