Making Whiskey From Corn Or Rice

[BillyBobThai]

It is my understanding that whiskey can be legally made here in Thailand as long as the pertinant laws are observed and taxes paid. Could not one make a better profit from their farm grain by turning it to something that has a higher profit margin. A value added product would allow the farmer to realize a better return on his crop. I visited a distillery a few years ago in Sing Buri that was making a distilled product from rice. This was an individual who was using 10- 55 gallon stills to make his product. I never did find out if was legal or not. If a farmer can add value to his crop then he will realize a better profit. Some farmers do this by growing corn to be used as silage to feed dairy cattle. I would like to hear some feedback on this idea.

Thanks for the responses

[slapout]

There was a add to sell a still on TV a few weeks back. The seller noted he could not make money after paying tax on product. Doubt he was a farmer with access to grain. Biggest expense is sugar and here in Thailand would probably be fuel for heat. Doubt, no I am sure. no tax is paid on the majority of local whiskey.

[Harcourt]

OP, you are quite right....I think it is important to try to devise adding value to your produce. It seems that many Thai do not normally think outside the square, much to their own detriment.

[getgoin]

I looked into brewing beer and the taxes associated with selling it. I could have read it wrong because it was not clear but it appeared that the taxes for a 12 oz. beer was around 35 Baht, more than a can of beer was selling for at the local mini-mart. So I am wondering if I didn't understand the tax or if the large beer producers had a special deal. Probably the latter.

http://www.excise.go.th/tax/eng-totaltax.html#liquors1

[Maestro]

Everybody, please read the OP, ie the first post in this topic, before you post here:

It is my understanding that whiskey can be legally made here in Thailand as long as the pertinant laws are observed and taxes paid...

This topic is about producing whiskey legally with all the licences, etc. All posts talking about moonshine and illegal brewing or distilling are off topic and I am going to delete them now. If your post is deleted but you have something to contribute on topic, ie the legal production of whiskey, please feel free to post again.

--

Maestro

[BillyBobThai]

As the OP of this thread, my intent was to get people to, as one poster said, THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. The farmer who raises hogs might consider making sausage or processing smoked bacon and ham. Maizefarmer is the perfect example of a farmer who is not afraid to push the envelope. I have heard it said that if Thai farmers are not doing it, there is a reason for it. That is probably part true, but, Thais are very conservetive and the local farmer is not likely to try inovative ways. I feel, we farangs should use our education and willingness to think outside the box, to help others in our communities.

I have read many times on this and orther sites, farangs complaining about the way the Tahi people do things. Maybe if we took a more positive approach, we all could benifit.

The Thais are by no means a stupid people. Many of the rural Thais never received a proper education, but that is far from being called stupid. The people have a remarkable ability to make do with what they have at hand. My Thai wife constantly surprises me at her willingness and ability to fix things around the house.

Let's give the locals the benifit of the doubt, and try to show them something different.

To the moderators, I have no idea why you deleted some of the comments, as I did not see them. Overkill such as this is what causes people to look for other alternatives to TV.

//Edit: deleted comment discussing moderation action. Sending PM to the poster.

[bina]

the 'censorship' is because we are not allowed to discuss certain things on this forum. period. rules from admin., this is a thai forum in thailand and governed by thai rules. and we all know that certain things can be 'misunderstood' by others. therefor teh censorship. we as moderators follow the rules. thats all. i am not reflecting my personal ideas about most things when i have to delete or close a subject. (as most of u may know, i tend to let things flow on and settle out by themselves). i am acting as part of a team. according to procedure. end of discussion.

yes, i like maizefarmer's thinking out of the box. i think he also knows thailand like the back of his hand. take his advice/suggestions seriously.

last but not least:

keep the discussion to legal breweries thats all.

bina

israel

[Maestro]

Posts discussing moderation action have been deleted. From the forum rules:

In using Thai Visa I agree:

21) Not to discuss moderation publicly in the open forum; this includes individual actions, and specific or general policies and issues. You may send a PM to a moderator to discuss individual actions or email support (at) thaivisa.com to discuss moderation policy.

--

Maestro

[sunsamourai]

to come back to the topic :

Would anybody have more info regarding legal alcohol (not only whiskey) production ?

For instance, is there any notion of the quantity produced before regulations applied ? Just wondering if it was autorized to make some for yourself as a hobby.

Back in France, we used to make some plum or pear alcohol on the good yielding years. I wonder what it'd be like to try it with pinaples, papayas, or whatever ... I'm experimenting with making jam now, using these wonderfull fruits, and the result is just fantastic !

Is making a bit for your own forbidden ?

If so, is there a place where we could bring fruits to be processed for a fee ?

Note: pls, don't delete the whole thing if I stepped out of the forum rules : send me a PM and I'll edit . . .

[Maizefarmer]

I actually answered this question a few day back - and guess what? My comments were deleated.

Almost word for word (amongst other words) about the potential helath risks associated with drinking homebrew of unknown origin - deaths are regular in Thailand, as all sorts of stuff gets thrown in - I said, "home brew in Thailand is illegal - even homebrew beer kits".

No - sadly, even as a hobby it is illegal, however, while I cannot encourage homebrew (and I have made the stuff before myself), it would be accurate to say that you will find the authorities couldn't really care what you do in the privacy of your own home in this regard - its when folk start selling it (commercalise their back yard brewing) that the authorities take a pro-active interest, because sadly, it has been shown time and time again that un-regulated alcohol production to be a potential killer.

[sunsamourai]

Thanks for your answer, Maize : facts direct to the point as usual.

[WatersEdge]

I have carefully quantified the precise process Ethanol from Corn, Cassava, Rice, etc

the more difficult case of brewing starch rather than sugar

and even have a 10,000 liter/day factory standing by in Chiang Mai,

should the price of fuel ever rise to the feasible level

In 4 days from dry corn, Ethanol drips

Unless Petroleum continues to rise or Grain continues to crash

someone of lavish means should mercifully cash me out of my currently pointless factory

The original quest of this post was adding value to low priced farm commodities.

The volume of grain out there is far greater than can be consumed by everyone in the country drinking heavily

Brewing / Distilling for drink is entirely different than for fuel or chemical Ethanol

even though the science of the two are precisely the same

making a drink is art & craft on top of science.

Customers with money do not buy liquor on the criteria of price,

The average person wouldn't want to drink fuel grade Ethanol

even if the toxics were properly removed

because it does not have the particular flavor they have come to appreciate from a bottle.

We see advertizements of

aged whiskey in oak wood barrels

a blend of various grains

requisite of good liquor

All this to point out...There is a reason that cheap whiskey is made by specialists...

and fine whiskey is sold by very very few extremely good specialists

So, if the quest is value added market for glutted grain

then it is necessary to completely integrate the entry & exit streams of the fuel ethanol plant

I suggest a cattle feed lot and a pig barn,

so that the stillage beer and distiller's grains are consumed fresh wet

without energy intensive dehydration

then we need to use all the fuel as near the plant as possible,

with the plant located next to the fields,

eliminating transport and marketing expense.

For any who would like a science project,

dump a kilo of sugar into a 5 liter plastic water bottle almost full

add a spoon of plain bread yeast.

Don't tighten the cap, leave it on loose only so that oxygen cannot get in

let it bubble until it stops in 4-5 days

The science part is:

Sugar is broken into Ethanol and Carbon Dioxide

Yeast is just the Sugar breaker....it is not in the chemical equation

Water is just the playground...it is not in the chemical equation

Too many Ethanol accumulated in the water kill the Yeast,

which is why 5 liters water is necessary to brew 1 kg Sugar

Yeast population multiply until they are all killed by their own Ethanol at 14%

Any drunk can make his own on the cheap

and doesn't even have to get sober to make a new batch

right up until he also is killed by his own Ethanol

For my own...

I still buy the fancy stuff made by the Lion

because I prefer the taste

The drunk cannot make his own corn liquor without sobering up

as there are too many time and temperature settings

and there is just enough Methanol in the jug to perpetuate his hangover

[IMA_FARANG]

It is my understanding that whiskey can be legally made here in Thailand as long as the pertinant laws are observed and taxes paid. Could not one make a better profit from their farm grain by turning it to something that has a higher profit margin. A value added product would allow the farmer to realize a better return on his crop. I visited a distillery a few years ago in Sing Buri that was making a distilled product from rice. This was an individual who was using 10- 55 gallon stills to make his product. I never did find out if was legal or not. If a farmer can add value to his crop then he will realize a better profit. Some farmers do this by growing corn to be used as silage to feed dairy cattle. I would like to hear some feedback on this idea.

Thanks for the responses

I'm trying to tread very carefully here...to avoid any problems on this subject.

First of all, I do not know for certain but I believe it is not legal to produce alchohol from maize or any other grain without the proper government liscense, either in Thailand or any other country. Therefore I'm assuming that the making of alchohol in Thailand by individuals is illegal. Leave it at that .

Now for making alchohol from any grain...it requires a lot of mash to produce one unit of alchohol. I would guess you would be looking at at least 30 gallons of mash for 1 gallon of drinkable alchohol produced. That is not efficient and you need to sell the product if you could do it legally for a price that would compensate for the expense to cover the cost of the ineffeciency of production.

You need to know what you are doing to produce drinkable alchohol from mash. It must be distlled repeatedly. When I was in Saudi Arabia, we never accepted anything less than "fifth run", i.e. the fifth distllation pass through. Anything less, and it possibly contained contaminents, and other non-alchol liqueds, that could make anyone drinking it very sick. You have to be very careful not to get toxic and poisonous products or contamination from the still and distlation process. Even then it takes a long time, many repeated distillations, and a careful and knowledgeable handling of the ingrdients. Doing it incorrectly can cause a still to explode, and alchohol burns...so fires are always possible.

For some history...farners in the U.S, in the 1800's that lived on what was the them frontier territorys used to produce alchohol from their corn (maize to you brits and Europeans). The reason was that the only transport was by slow barges on the rivers...there were no roads in the frontier. So corn/maize would spoil during the slow shipment to market. So the corn/maize was made into whiskey, which could be transported by barge easier, and stored in kegs without spoilage.

But again...I think making alchohol by an idividual without a liscense is illegal and therefore must not be done.

Edited July 28, 2009 by IMA_FARANG

[elki]

I diy red wine and sometimes destill, from grape for years..Never try from corn and rice.

interesting is one thing,but profit is another.

[slapout]

I think the secret to this thread is do not use the term moon....., that denotes illegal whiskey. I posted before the retail price of whiskey, but it was deleted, for good cause. A good still does not require 5 runs to produce good/safe whiskey. The Greeks have a beautiful drink that the 'second ' is claimed to be the best. It is my understanding that this does not refer to distilling said product twice. The equipment used in the process is crucial, no radiators, rubber hoses, cast iron, etc allowed

[rgs2001uk]

It is my understanding that whiskey can be legally made here in Thailand as long as the pertinant laws are observed and taxes paid. Could not one make a better profit from their farm grain by turning it to something that has a higher profit margin. A value added product would allow the farmer to realize a better return on his crop. I visited a distillery a few years ago in Sing Buri that was making a distilled product from rice. This was an individual who was using 10- 55 gallon stills to make his product. I never did find out if was legal or not. If a farmer can add value to his crop then he will realize a better profit. Some farmers do this by growing corn to be used as silage to feed dairy cattle. I would like to hear some feedback on this idea.

Thanks for the responses

I'm trying to tread very carefully here...to avoid any problems on this subject.

First of all, I do not know for certain but I believe it is not legal to produce alchohol from maize or any other grain without the proper government liscense, either in Thailand or any other country. Therefore I'm assuming that the making of alchohol in Thailand by individuals is illegal. Leave it at that .

Now for making alchohol from any grain...it requires a lot of mash to produce one unit of alchohol. I would guess you would be looking at at least 30 gallons of mash for 1 gallon of drinkable alchohol produced. That is not efficient and you need to sell the product if you could do it legally for a price that would compensate for the expense to cover the cost of the ineffeciency of production.

You need to know what you are doing to produce drinkable alchohol from mash. It must be distlled repeatedly. When I was in Saudi Arabia, we never accepted anything less than "fifth run", i.e. the fifth distllation pass through. Anything less, and it possibly contained contaminents, and other non-alchol liqueds, that could make anyone drinking it very sick. You have to be very careful not to get toxic and poisonous products or contamination from the still and distlation process. Even then it takes a long time, many repeated distillations, and a careful and knowledgeable handling of the ingrdients. Doing it incorrectly can cause a still to explode, and alchohol burns...so fires are always possible.

For some history...farners in the U.S, in the 1800's that lived on what was the them frontier territorys used to produce alchohol from their corn (maize to you brits and Europeans). The reason was that the only transport was by slow barges on the rivers...there were no roads in the frontier. So corn/maize would spoil during the slow shipment to market. So the corn/maize was made into whiskey, which could be transported by barge easier, and stored in kegs without spoilage.

But again...I think making alchohol by an idividual without a liscense is illegal and therefore must not be done.

Some interesting comments there IMA FARANG.

Yes as far as I am aware its illegal

As for units required, 100 liters of mash will produce in the region of 30 liters of finished product first burn,

each subsequent burn will reduce the quantity.

Anyone with experience will find it cost efficient and profitable.

Sorry, I dont accept the mythical fifth burn, you would end up with something so strong it would need to be cut to make it drinkable, after cutting it back you will end up with a product that will be as strong alcohol content wise as it was after your first burn. The only difference being it will be smoother and cleaner.

Personally I never heard of anyone even achieving a fourth burn, too dangerous and time consuming, unless of course its for personal consumption, but in the retail market not worth it.

Yes third burns were done for personal consumption, and some were very smooth and palatable.

Second burns were done, but had to be cut back because of the strength of the finished product, although there was a market for it.

In the main, most of the product was single run, again there was some rough produce, basically produced by the get rich quick brigade, cut corners and knock it out as quickly as possible.

Cleanliness was one of the biggest time consumers, the type of still used was also a concern, too many people were cranking up the heat trying to cut production time, glass containers were used with 2 marks on them, what first started coming out was disposed of, basically poison, also when the top mark was reached, the still was shut down, yes you could still extract some more produce, but too risky, you could end up contaminating an entire batch, not worth it as the whole batch would need to be burned again. Greed and time constraints were usually the reason.

The biggest danger was when the product was in a gaseous state just prior too going into the worm to be water cooled back to a liquid, the dog leg had to be secured in place to ensure no leaks, that was the cause of every still explosion I knew of, the worm not correctly in place.

History wise, I was under the impression corn was used instead of sugar because the cost of sugar was too expensive, but starch could still be extracted from the corn, probably another urban myth.

Just as a matter of interest, what was the going rate for a 1 1/2 liter water bottle of fifth burn uncut?

Those who produced such illegal products told me the cost per single burn was about 2 riyals per 1 1/2 liter bottle, not bad for something that had a going rate of 100 riyals per bottle, or 900 riyals for a box of 12.

For those interested in such practices and the procedures involved, google, the blue flame, warning do not try this at home.

[captbob]

And you need 85 C degrees to separate alcohol and water and a special tube collect the steam and separate the bad alcohol from the good one but its illegal only info for science sugar cane its possible to but still illegal only maybe Laokrao is legal rice wine or beer good buzz

anybody use that info for making alcohol remember its illegal even if you don't get catch