For The Diesel Experts

[basjke]

I will try to explain the problem which I experience with my chevy colorado 3.0 tdi common rail.

When I start the engine,either cold or warm,I will hear a sound same like the engine is running without oil which turns to normal after a few seconds.I have this also when the engine is warm but it have to be parked for at least a few minutes to have the symptom.

First I thought it was the oil which needs some time to travel to the top of the engine,but at closer look the sound seems to come particular from the left side of the engine.Therefore I think the noise is generated by the diesel injectors.

Today I went to the dealer and they connected a diagnose computer to the car which showed them that a valve was faulty.However they were not able to explain me what valve it was other then that it was a fuel valve.

Also it seems to be a common error because they could tell me the price of the valve,2300 baht,straight out of their head and knew also that they had it in stock.It would take about 2 hours to replace it.

I told them that I was using B5 and they told me that was the reason for the failure of the valve.

My question now is,which valve they are talking about and is it really necessary to replace it as I don't see any problem other then the strange noise for a few seconds when I start the engine.The car runs normal,has normal power and doesn't show any symptoms of a broken diesel pump or something.Occasionally the engine will stop shortly after I start it but it will restart without any problem so the reason for that can be something else.

Also if I replace the valve and keep filling up with B5 the same problem will probably return after some time I assume.

So are there any diesel experts on here that can explain me the problem and the solution better then the dealer could.

Thanks in advance.

[imaneggspurt]

How odd,..this must be only on the dmax as ive never heard of it, at first i thought like you that it was dry lifters, or a loose timing chain,.i take it its out of warranty ? ,,if the are sure this is what it is then id say go ahead,and ask them what the warranty is on the part, ,stay using the same fuel and see if it goes again, if so the part is covered in the warranty ? .

[basjke]

Yes the car is out of warranty so I assume there is no warranty on the part if I keep using B5.

As far as I could understand from their explanation is that the valve regulates which injector gets fuel.Also they could not assure me that the valve was the reason for the noise but the computer gave the code for a fuel valve failure.Strange thing to me is that I have not any problems other then the noise so I am curious if not replacing the valve will create a major problem or not.

[saintofsilence]

It could be a leaky injector which is letting excess diesel into the cylinder and this is causing the knock when it starts up until it clears,.

Is there excessive smoke when you start up ?

[basjke]

It could be a leaky injector which is letting excess diesel into the cylinder and this is causing the knock when it starts up until it clears,.

Is there excessive smoke when you start up ?

No there is no smoke.Also if that was the reason I guess the knocking would not disappear after a few seconds.

Also the major reason for this topic is that I try to find out which valve they're talking about,I believe if their computer reports the error that there is one,and how serious this problem is.

[saintofsilence]

It could be a leaky injector which is letting excess diesel into the cylinder and this is causing the knock when it starts up until it clears,.

Is there excessive smoke when you start up ?

No there is no smoke.Also if that was the reason I guess the knocking would not disappear after a few seconds.

Also the major reason for this topic is that I try to find out which valve they're talking about,I believe if their computer reports the error that there is one,and how serious this problem is.

this still sounds like a faulty injector which is probably due to wear and the reason the knock goes is that rpms increase and burn the excess fuel.

Does it seem as if its missing one cylinder until the noise goes.

Note : an injector is a valve

Edited July 17, 2009 by saintofsilence

[basjke]

It could be a leaky injector which is letting excess diesel into the cylinder and this is causing the knock when it starts up until it clears,.

Is there excessive smoke when you start up ?

No there is no smoke.Also if that was the reason I guess the knocking would not disappear after a few seconds.

Also the major reason for this topic is that I try to find out which valve they're talking about,I believe if their computer reports the error that there is one,and how serious this problem is.

this still sounds like a faulty injector which is probably due to wear and the reason the knock goes is that rpms increase and burn the excess fuel.

Does it seem as if its missing one cylinder until the noise goes.

Note : an injector is a valve

I think you made a good point with your note about the injector.Is it possible that 2300 Baht is the going price for an injector,I know from experience that chevrolet is very reasonable with their part prices,and is 2 hours a normal timespan for replacing an injector?

So,lets go a bit further in this direction.The noise stops after a few seconds without increasing the rpms,it just runs stationary.

It doesn't gives the feeling or sound that it is missing a cylinder,however like I said before occasionally the engine will stop running shortly after I started it.

I have the idea that after it is running normal that when I just step on the throttle and release it again that I hear the same knocking sound for a second just at the point that I release the throttle.Does that sound familiar?

[thaicbr]

I concur to the other posters. also the Chevrolet is the same as the Izuzu which do NOT allow using B5 on the common rail engine. a couple thou is not to bad if it cures the fault.

[BSJ]

Not sure what the requirements are for your model, but get a reliable mechanic to fit an oil pressure gauge to the engine oil feed lines as close to the problem as possible and see what pressure your getting in the first few seconds. Changing grade of oil maybe a solution. If not, consider fitting an oil pressure accumulator to pressurize the system so you start with oil already in the hard to reach spots.

If your done low mileage I don't see it as a fuel system problem. A high pressure injector only has one moving part which is a solenoid with a pintle valve attached. Or in your case call it a Piezoelectric injector. But the B5 fuel shouldn't (hopefully) cause problems until your up around 250,000km....or more!

[basjke]

From the majority of responses I understand that you consider that it is an injector fault.

If you look at price and repair time they quote me,does that indicate that the valve they are talking about indeed is an injector?

[katabeachbum]

I will try to explain the problem which I experience with my chevy colorado 3.0 tdi common rail.

When I start the engine,either cold or warm,I will hear a sound same like the engine is running without oil which turns to normal after a few seconds.I have this also when the engine is warm but it have to be parked for at least a few minutes to have the symptom.

First I thought it was the oil which needs some time to travel to the top of the engine,but at closer look the sound seems to come particular from the left side of the engine.Therefore I think the noise is generated by the diesel injectors.

Today I went to the dealer and they connected a diagnose computer to the car which showed them that a valve was faulty.However they were not able to explain me what valve it was other then that it was a fuel valve.

Also it seems to be a common error because they could tell me the price of the valve,2300 baht,straight out of their head and knew also that they had it in stock.It would take about 2 hours to replace it.

I told them that I was using B5 and they told me that was the reason for the failure of the valve.

My question now is,which valve they are talking about and is it really necessary to replace it as I don't see any problem other then the strange noise for a few seconds when I start the engine.The car runs normal,has normal power and doesn't show any symptoms of a broken diesel pump or something.Occasionally the engine will stop shortly after I start it but it will restart without any problem so the reason for that can be something else.

Also if I replace the valve and keep filling up with B5 the same problem will probably return after some time I assume.

So are there any diesel experts on here that can explain me the problem and the solution better then the dealer could.

Thanks in advance.

A faulty injector/valve, probably caused by B5 (plantoil) or water in fuel. Normal lifetime would be 200-300k km or 6-10 years, but depends very much if diesel is clean or contains water. If your lucky its only one (out of 4). Price seems low if its genuine Denso (isuzu).

the reason for the noise is reduced pressure inside injector due to leak. The too low pressure also can cause engine to stop few minutes after starting it, but will then run ok.

I know many TV members are fan of B5 (diesel mixed with 5% plantoil) but few pre 2008 highpower diesel-engines are designed for it.

Edited July 18, 2009 by katabeachbum

[mdechgan]

I had the exact same problem with my DMax.

Noise and rough idle.

I wasn't in the dealer for like a few minutes and the mechanic told me I was using B5 before I told him anything.

He recommended we change a fuel filter and never to use B5 again which would be against warranty.

I don't know I never read the fiine details of the warranty. But after draining the fuel tank and using non-biodiesel the problem went away after a few tanks.

I don't think you have to replace injectors. Try replacing the fuek filter and using non-biodiesel and see it it helps after a few tanks.

It seems the commonrail engines of the DMax aren't designed for B5.

[Bpraim1]

I will try to explain the problem which I experience with my chevy colorado 3.0 tdi common rail.

When I start the engine,either cold or warm,I will hear a sound same like the engine is running without oil which turns to normal after a few seconds.I have this also when the engine is warm but it have to be parked for at least a few minutes to have the symptom.

First I thought it was the oil which needs some time to travel to the top of the engine,but at closer look the sound seems to come particular from the left side of the engine.Therefore I think the noise is generated by the diesel injectors.

Today I went to the dealer and they connected a diagnose computer to the car which showed them that a valve was faulty.However they were not able to explain me what valve it was other then that it was a fuel valve.

Also it seems to be a common error because they could tell me the price of the valve,2300 baht,straight out of their head and knew also that they had it in stock.It would take about 2 hours to replace it.

I told them that I was using B5 and they told me that was the reason for the failure of the valve.

My question now is,which valve they are talking about and is it really necessary to replace it as I don't see any problem other then the strange noise for a few seconds when I start the engine.The car runs normal,has normal power and doesn't show any symptoms of a broken diesel pump or something.Occasionally the engine will stop shortly after I start it but it will restart without any problem so the reason for that can be something else.

Also if I replace the valve and keep filling up with B5 the same problem will probably return after some time I assume.

So are there any diesel experts on here that can explain me the problem and the solution better then the dealer could.

Thanks in advance.

Fuel value is the intake valve! I do believe there are two intake valve on each cylinder. So you should be needing to replace both, if that is the problem.

I can't see how B5 would take out an intake valve! But stranger things have happened in LOS!

Injector failure and strong wear from low quality B5 Yes! O ring problems yes! Injector pump problems IE O ring swelling Yes!

I only B5 in my Navara with 60,000kms and not a problem yet.

[Gary A]

As our vehicle gets a little older, I think we tend to listen closer for strange noises. Most diesel engines rattle a little louder than normal at start up. Is it possible the rattle was always there and you just never noticed it before? Major fuel system problems such as a bad injector will cause a rough idle and black smoke at higher speeds. If your engine is smooth and doesn't pump black smoke, I wouldn't worry about it. I would also guess that if the diagnostics detects a "bad" valve, that replacing that valve, whatever it is, won't solve the rattle.

[rigpigonjuice]

The valve that they replaced was the SCV valve. It controls to amount of fuel that enters the fuel pump. The sound you heard was the engine starving for fuel and rattling. Once the valve sticks, the computer is unable to regulate the fuel supply to the fuel pump, and then bypasses the engine.

I have changed my SCV valve three times in 1.5 years. My Colorado is heavily modified and the stock fuel system can barely keep up. The last time I changed the SCV valve is took me 1/2 hour to do.

I was told that Chevrolet has just recently changed there suppliers of the SCV valve, and that the new stock is much better than the old ones.

Also the SCV valve does not like B5 fuel. It seems to make the valve more prone to sticking open. Either there are small contaminates is the fuel or the B5 does not lubricate as well.

I hope this helps,

Rigpig

Edited July 18, 2009 by rigpigonjuice

[philipm]

Right, exactly Brad,

its your SCV, Isuzu and chevrolets are renouned to have a common problem with the SCV.

i cant say this enough to those using B5, its is the cause of many problems,

if you dont change your scv, it will result in more and more problems as the fuel delivery is not in accordance to the ecu

set parameters, and also the commonrail pressure, which results in dropping of power, unsmooth power delivery,

and also a common reason for engine checklights and engine limp modes.

the SCV like Rigpig said, it takes about 30mintues to replace it. its a simple bolt on soleanoid with a sensor cap connector.

it is a common problem so if you can fill up with V-power it will help alot. as it cleans out the injectors, pistons and cleans the pump slightly to.

its my advise if you really want to run B5, is to alternatively change the diesel. first use vpower, then next time b5, then after that time back to v-power.

this will help with the cleaning of your valves and injectors etc.

But ofcourse i recommend just using normal diesel or Vpower only, non of this B5.

even with B5, you will be getting higher egts then you would with V-power.

[basjke]

Thanks for the reply's guy's.Rigpig and philipm you might be correct about that it is the scv valve as I could understand from the dealer that the valve I need regulates the fuel supply.As I said they quoted me 2300 baht so if you can confirm me that that is about the price for such a valve then I have no doubts anymore.

[rigpigonjuice]

I paid 1470 baht for the SCV valve. Phillip and I installed it ourselves. I could see Chevrolet charging 900 baht labour, so I think the 2300 baht is about right.

Rigpig

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

I drive an Isuzu D-Max with the 3.0 litre engine and i was told by the sales person (bought the truck new) NOT to us Bio-Diesel other than PTT as the one from PTT contains methanol as opposed to everyone else who's using Ethanol (or vice versa, forgot).

Anyway a remedy that might help in this case is to add a quarter liter of mineralic two-stroke-oil ("autolube", "2T") to your Diesel next time you fill up. It provides additional lubrication to the injectors and may "fix" the problem pretty much immediately.

Kind regards......

Thanh

[thaicbr]

Blimey Thanh you even 'two stroke' your truck as well............WOW :D

[basjke]

Hi.

I drive an Isuzu D-Max with the 3.0 litre engine and i was told by the sales person (bought the truck new) NOT to us Bio-Diesel other than PTT as the one from PTT contains methanol as opposed to everyone else who's using Ethanol (or vice versa, forgot).

Thanh

I might be wrong but I think bio diesel doesn't contain either methanol or ethanol but palmoil.It is gasohol that contains one of those substances.

As for Ptt I first used their B5 but changed to Shell B5 as it gave me about 20 % improvement in mileage over the one from Ptt.

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

It was explained to me like that with the Ethanol/Methanol. Apparently here they add that to the palm oil (in Europe i know of people who run their Diesel cars on 100% salad oil, usually sunflower or similar cheap oil) and that works fine, too, however only with OLD Diesels.

Yes, the two-stroke-oil trick i know from a guy who has been driving Diesel cars and trucks since 40 years, he pointed me to several forums (in German) where it is discussed - the reason being that modern Diesel fuel has less and less ability to lubricate which causes engine damages earlier than necessary - adding two-stroke-oil in roughly 1:200 to 1:150 ratio to the Diesel pretty much prevents that.

However if that works with Bio-Diesel, too, i can't say. My Isuzu receives regular Diesel but it only has some 7,800 kilometers on it so far (got it last year end of October).

Kind regards.....

Thanh

[Datsun240Z]

On common-rail engines it's not good to use bad quality fuel. For the older diesel engines, it doesn't matter.

The injectors might have dirt inside them. Injectors can be cleaned, not necesarry to replace, although in Thailand, I do not know if they clean injectors. Best to also replace the fuel filter with it, and she should run fine again.

[basjke]

Went to the dealer again today and it is indeed the scv valve that needs to be replacd.They did a complete diagnose and came to the conclusion that the tank needs to be cleaned,injector cleaned and filter replaced.Also something with the engine valves which need to be replaced,I think some covers or something,but part of that they could claim however the warrantee is finished long time ago.All by all the cost is 4900 baht and they are working on it now.Hope that everything will be ok when they finish end of the day.

Thanks for your replies everybody.

[torrenova]

Can someone please explain what this B5 is and why someone would want to use it in a vehicle that it is not designed for ?

[katabeachbum]

Can someone please explain what this B5 is and why someone would want to use it in a vehicle that it is not designed for ?

B5 is 95% diesel fuel blended with 5% plantoil. It is the most sold diesel fuel in LOS cause the price is subsidesd by government.

Thai government is trying to reduce import of petrol and diesel by blending agricultureproducts into the fuel.

Petrol is blended with ethanol made from sugarcane. Almost all 95 petrol in LOS is blended with 10% (E10) or 20% (E20) ethanol.

Carmanufactorers gets reduced sales taxes (excice tax) on their vehicles if they can accept these fuels.

There are basicly only one supplyer of pure diesel left, Shell Vpower Euro 4 spec.

There is basicly only one supplyer of pure 95 petrol left, Shell Vpower 95.

Why anyone runs on wrong fuel? To save money. Its cheaper. And because the government wants everyone to run on domestic made agriculture fuel information is not always accurate.

[63Tommy1]

Can someone please explain what this B5 is and why someone would want to use it in a vehicle that it is not designed for ?

B5 is 95% diesel fuel blended with 5% plantoil. It is the most sold diesel fuel in LOS cause the price is subsidesd by government.

Thai government is trying to reduce import of petrol and diesel by blending agricultureproducts into the fuel.

Petrol is blended with ethanol made from sugarcane. Almost all 95 petrol in LOS is blended with 10% (E10) or 20% (E20) ethanol.

Carmanufactorers gets reduced sales taxes (excice tax) on their vehicles if they can accept these fuels.

There are basicly only one supplyer of pure diesel left, Shell Vpower Euro 4 spec.

There is basicly only one supplyer of pure 95 petrol left, Shell Vpower 95.

Why anyone runs on wrong fuel? To save money. Its cheaper. And because the government wants everyone to run on domestic made agriculture fuel information is not always accurate.

VERY interesting Katabeachbum!

Just about to get my Chevy diesel tomorrow, and I had no idea about this...

I´m not getting the Colorado, but it seems I have to call and ask the service center about what fuels are good for Captiva, the manual gives you right...

So only Shell V power, sure?

Thanks!

Tommy

[katabeachbum]

Can someone please explain what this B5 is and why someone would want to use it in a vehicle that it is not designed for ?

B5 is 95% diesel fuel blended with 5% plantoil. It is the most sold diesel fuel in LOS cause the price is subsidesd by government.

Thai government is trying to reduce import of petrol and diesel by blending agricultureproducts into the fuel.

Petrol is blended with ethanol made from sugarcane. Almost all 95 petrol in LOS is blended with 10% (E10) or 20% (E20) ethanol.

Carmanufactorers gets reduced sales taxes (excice tax) on their vehicles if they can accept these fuels.

There are basicly only one supplyer of pure diesel left, Shell Vpower Euro 4 spec.

There is basicly only one supplyer of pure 95 petrol left, Shell Vpower 95.

Why anyone runs on wrong fuel? To save money. Its cheaper. And because the government wants everyone to run on domestic made agriculture fuel information is not always accurate.

VERY interesting Katabeachbum!

Just about to get my Chevy diesel tomorrow, and I had no idea about this...

I´m not getting the Colorado, but it seems I have to call and ask the service center about what fuels are good for Captiva, the manual gives you right...

So only Shell V power, sure?

Thanks!

Tommy

Dont know what 2008 Chevrolet/Daewoo Captiva 2,0 commonrail can run on. Do not trust what they tell you, trust what you can read.

Everyone sayd Toyota could run on B5 past 3 years, but one of the upgrades for late 2008 was the ability to run B5.................

[Thanh-BKK]

There are basicly only one supplyer of pure diesel left, Shell Vpower Euro 4 spec.

There is basicly only one supplyer of pure 95 petrol left, Shell Vpower 95.

Ahem, that is not quite correct.

I fill my motorbike at Caltex, pure 95, no problem. Also Esso still has pure 95 and so does Petronas. No idea about others because i never fill at others (Esso and Petronas only if i am at risk of running dry and no Caltex in sight).

Almost all stations (!) still have normal Diesel.

What is difficult to get is pure 91 petrol, but at least Caltex and Petronas still sell that, too. In my area at least (Bangna).

Best regards......

Thanh

[63Tommy1]

I went past a number of Gas stations today, most of them had 2 different pumps for Diesel, one Marked B5, and another marked Diesel (in Thai).

Haven´t spoken to the Chevy dealer yet, will let you know when I get an answer.

Thanks to Thanh, I guess you are right.

Tommy