Hillary Clinton Arrives In Bangkok, En Route To Asean Meet

[animatic]

We see that in Malyasia as well as Thailand and general SE Asia.

You cannot compare the integration of Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia vs. Thailand. There is no history of violence and institutional discrimination against Chinese here, correct?

Well both yes and no.

There was a forced Siamization of Chinese to take Thai =names if they wished to stay,

that was partly a reaction to the enormous business power at the time.

They were given a choice leave or integrate, being pragmatic and with strong roots

they changed Shin to Shinawatra. Wong to Wongsuwarat etc.

Their business accumen did eventually make them a powerful corner of the ruling factions,

of MOST governments in the last 100+ years or so. Some might say the Elites....

ooh such a dirty word these days

There's more to it, but I need to do somethings now. c'est la vie

[Lovia]

It's understandable that ASEAN leaders would be drawn, at least somewhat, to forming alliances with China. However, they do so at their own peril. Chinese are ethnically closer to SE Asians, so that's a draw for SE Asians. Either way, Chinese immigrants are continually blending in to SE Asian countries and forming major businesses wherever they go - and their allegiance will be with China, at least for several generations.

Thaksin and many of his closest people are Chinese descent. Malaysia and Indonesia have periodic riots regarding indigenous people feeling they're being crowded out by Chinese businesses taking over.........

*Applause* A great post. This is coming from a Thai girl who have contacts with the Chinese on a daily basis. I really don't want to call the hans name, lest the moderators think that I'm an Asian Nazi.

[samran]

Yes I agree the smooth integration and acceptance of Chinese in Thailand is remarkable. Something farangs can look forward to in 1000 years maybe.

I take it you've never met 'farang' who were born here (or moved here at a young age), grown up here, and do very well here. Plenty of them about, you just don't notice it.

People here on TV don't understand that wherever you go, the first generation of migrants always face difficult adjustments. It is only their kids who generally thrive.

I am talking about in general. Obviously in the past the masses of Chinese who migrated here had no problems getting residence and citizenship. Compare to westerners, I imagine well less than one percent of us ever achieve that (not that so many of us want it though). If you are talking about mixed race children, that is not the same issue, and you bloody well know it. Of course they can become Thai.

Good thing I wasn't talking about mixed race children then.

I'm talking about people who ethically are 100% European, but, through quirk of geography or where their lives took them at a young age, are living here now, or have extensive links here. I'm just trying to make a point there is another world out there, one very few people see (mostly because it is right in their faces). A young 'farang' guy in my office tower, owns and operates a very successful direct marketing business, but when he opens his mouth, he speaks a brand of Thai that can only be learn from growing up here. Many expats in BKK with children send their kids to a very popular swimming school owned and run by a Thai born Brit. He is married to an Australian, and their kids 100% 'white' are Thai citizens as well. The list goes on.

You are right though, most westerners don't generally undertake the hard yards to try and integrate (usually want it to be the other way around though) and fewer want Thai citizenship given the relative percieved benefits. Thai citizenship, though not easy and somewhat time consuming, isn't exactly rocket science to get. But most expect PR and citizenship to be handed to them on a silver platter after biding their time here, so these people will never get it.

Perhaps a more apt comparison, easier for doubters to swallow, is that of Thai Sikhs, and to a lesser extent, Persians. There are quite a few Thai-Indians about who have risen to great heights in business and government at least in comparison to their relative representation as a % of the population. I took my daughter to a playground a few weeks ago, and their were quite a few Thai-Persians there as well. The look more European than Middle Eastern or sub-continental, but no doubt they were born and bred in Thailand after they opened their mouths.

Edited July 23, 2009 by samran

[Groongthep]

Groongthep, if you want to argue that Thailand has no chance of success in doing business with China - it's a big topic for another thread.

If you want to say they haven't been trying - you are plain wrong. There have been counless articles and interviews about it. The Nation even run a special weekly "China economy" supplement for a while, and in some schools they introduced mandatory Chinese lessons because that's where they see their future.

If you want to argue that the US has nothing to worry about its influence in Asean because China is not attractive to them anyway - it's a matter of opinion, and yours goes very much against the general trend.

I'm having a hard time understanding how you came up with these assumptions from what I wrote in my posts. Where exactly did I infer that Thailand had no chance of success in doing business with China? China is a great market for Thai agricultural products such as rice, tapioca, fish and as a source of tourists but it is not a good market for Thai manufactured goods. China competes with Thailand on a world wide basis for sales of manufactured goods. Until Thailand can produce manufactured goods of similar quality at cheaper prices than the Chinese, China will continue to be the preferred place for the rest of the world to buy these products and for their domestic market as well, all to the detriment of Thai and other ASEAN producers. Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

Nowhere did I say that they were not trying. Where did that assumption come from? CP sells lots of processed food in China and I'm sure there are other Thai companies doing well there too, but for the most part the Chinese see ASEAN countries as a place to sell their products not so much as a place from which anything but raw materials and maybe a few specialty items can be purchased.

Completely taken aback by your last paragraph. In your original post you were the one who inferred that ASEAN countries might disregard the North American market and just sell their cars, computers and toys in China instead. All I said was that it didn't make any sense. I never said that the ASEAN countries wouldn't love to improve trade with China, but why would ASEAN countries forsake a proven profitable market that they already have? The Nation's articles about the Chinese economy mostly hinge on hopes that China, with it's robust economy might pick up the slack in investing in Thailand where Japan, America and the EU has dissipated. They're teaching Thai kids to speak Mandarin so that they may become desirable employees if the Chinese decided to set up operations here not so that they go to China and set up Thai factories there.

Back on topic, your original post to which all this refers back to implied that Hillary Clinton was here to do some arm twisting. All news reports have shown no evidence of any such thing. In fact they reflect just the opposite. Your post seemed to imply that China and the US were somehow diametrically opposed to one another and involved in some sort of neo cold war. It was and is my contention that the two basically cooperate quite well together. China has been of some help in trying to disuade North Korea from nuclear proliferation. With the exception of China's irritation over America's constant criticism of their human rights record (which I admit, has been rather hypocritical at times but is done mainly to appease domestic political factions) and America's support of an independent Taiwan, China and the US have friendly relations for the most part especially in light of what they where like just 30 years ago.

[Lovia]

Until Thailand can produce manufactured goods of similar quality at

Hello there, similar quality to China? Are you kidding? I've always been of the mnid that Thai products were always superior to China in terms of quality, because of our workmanship and our dedication to the things we produce. The only thing we lagged behind China is the quantity. And as Thais knows, China do things very fast, but their products are crap. I don't think I have to prove it by giving out melamine flavoured milk,do I?

[TAWP]

Until Thailand can produce manufactured goods of similar quality at

Hello there, similar quality to China? Are you kidding? I've always been of the mnid that Thai products were always superior to China in terms of quality, because of our workmanship and our dedication to the things we produce. The only thing we lagged behind China is the quantity. And as Thais knows, China do things very fast, but their products are crap. I don't think I have to prove it by giving out melamine flavoured milk,do I?

I'm not so sure there is much workmanship to be proud over...I know my wife avoids products with Thailand as manufacturer if there is an alternative...

One scandal with adulterated milk vs hushed up food scandals here with water-bottling, chickens etc...same level?

[Datsun240Z]

American people are a joke. The claim everything theirs, actually their whole country is made upon foreigners or foreigner influence. I hate that country.

[sukeroku]

American people are a joke. The claim everything theirs, actually their whole country is made upon foreigners or foreigner influence. I hate that country.

Most Americans would agree with you!

[TAWP]

American people are a joke. The claim everything theirs, actually their whole country is made upon foreigners or foreigner influence. I hate that country.

W T F?

[sukeroku]

"Sometimes she looks like a primary schoolgirl and sometimes a pensioner going shopping," . At least one good line in reference to Clinton came out of Phuket today.

Edited July 23, 2009 by sukeroku

[Plus]

Groongthep, if you want to argue that Thailand has no chance of success in doing business with China - it's a big topic for another thread.

If you want to say they haven't been trying - you are plain wrong. There have been counless articles and interviews about it. The Nation even run a special weekly "China economy" supplement for a while, and in some schools they introduced mandatory Chinese lessons because that's where they see their future.

If you want to argue that the US has nothing to worry about its influence in Asean because China is not attractive to them anyway - it's a matter of opinion, and yours goes very much against the general trend.

I'm having a hard time understanding how you came up with these assumptions from what I wrote in my posts. Where exactly did I infer that Thailand had no chance of success in doing business with China? China is a great market for Thai agricultural products such as rice, tapioca, fish and as a source of tourists but it is not a good market for Thai manufactured goods. China competes with Thailand on a world wide basis for sales of manufactured goods. Until Thailand can produce manufactured goods of similar quality at cheaper prices than the Chinese, China will continue to be the preferred place for the rest of the world to buy these products and for their domestic market as well, all to the detriment of Thai and other ASEAN producers. Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

Nowhere did I say that they were not trying. Where did that assumption come from? CP sells lots of processed food in China and I'm sure there are other Thai companies doing well there too, but for the most part the Chinese see ASEAN countries as a place to sell their products not so much as a place from which anything but raw materials and maybe a few specialty items can be purchased.

Completely taken aback by your last paragraph. In your original post you were the one who inferred that ASEAN countries might disregard the North American market and just sell their cars, computers and toys in China instead. All I said was that it didn't make any sense. I never said that the ASEAN countries wouldn't love to improve trade with China, but why would ASEAN countries forsake a proven profitable market that they already have? The Nation's articles about the Chinese economy mostly hinge on hopes that China, with it's robust economy might pick up the slack in investing in Thailand where Japan, America and the EU has dissipated. They're teaching Thai kids to speak Mandarin so that they may become desirable employees if the Chinese decided to set up operations here not so that they go to China and set up Thai factories there.

Back on topic, your original post to which all this refers back to implied that Hillary Clinton was here to do some arm twisting. All news reports have shown no evidence of any such thing. In fact they reflect just the opposite. Your post seemed to imply that China and the US were somehow diametrically opposed to one another and involved in some sort of neo cold war. It was and is my contention that the two basically cooperate quite well together. China has been of some help in trying to disuade North Korea from nuclear proliferation. With the exception of China's irritation over America's constant criticism of their human rights record (which I admit, has been rather hypocritical at times but is done mainly to appease domestic political factions) and America's support of an independent Taiwan, China and the US have friendly relations for the most part especially in light of what they where like just 30 years ago.

I can't follow all this "he said, she said" - suddenly there are unsaid distinctions between manifactured and agricultural goods with further raw/processed and exports/investments branching out even further, all exploding into hundreds and hundreds of words.

My point is that Asean is steadily coming under Chinese sphere of influence, first economically, then politically. It was in part because the region was abandoned by the previous US administration, but now this trend is irreversible. The fact is that Asean foreing policies will have to be run by China first. If the US wants something to be done over China's objections, it should bring carrots, lots of them.

Hillary promised reinvigoration of the US-Asean ties, fine, but I just don't see it. Which way would it go? Americans don't have any particular interests here.

The only subject of interest and controversy is Burma, and this is where she doesn't have any political leverage over Asean and I don't see how she can get any. I, frankly, don't think the US cares about Burma very much, they've got enough foreign conflicts on their hands already.

There's no cold war, yet. However it is inevitable that China and US will eventually start fighting for all kinds of resources, the Earth is not infinite.

[brahmburgers]

It's understandable that ASEAN leaders would be drawn, at least somewhat, to forming alliances with China. However, they do so at their own peril. Chinese are ethnically closer to SE Asians, so that's a draw for SE Asians. Either way, Chinese immigrants are continually blending in to SE Asian countries and forming major businesses wherever they go - and their allegiance will be with China, at least for several generations.

Thaksin and many of his closest people are Chinese descent. Malaysia and Indonesia have periodic riots regarding indigenous people feeling they're being crowded out by Chinese businesses taking over.........

*Applause* A great post. This is coming from a Thai girl who have contacts with the Chinese on a daily basis. I really don't want to call the hans name, lest the moderators think that I'm an Asian Nazi.

Welcome to Thai Visa, Lovia.

American people are a joke. The claim everything theirs, actually their whole country is made upon foreigners or foreigner influence. I hate that country.

Ok, you got that off your chest, ....you feel better now?

BTW, you can stop using everything Americans invented - if you want. You can start with the following items:

computer chips, electricity, email, Nikes, basketball, baseball, corn, squash, Harleys, red peppers, Mad Magazine, ice cream sandwiches, jazz, airplanes, Cochise, blue jeans, movies, WWF, Beach Boys, TV dinners, GPS, National Geographic, Marilyn Monroe, .....shall I go on?

[animatic]

American people are a joke. The claim everything theirs, actually their whole country is made upon foreigners or foreigner influence. I hate that country.

Oh, and you think Holland is NOT a old school colonialist country with no blood on it's hands.

Get real. Most of the classic big powers in Europe were up to the nostrils and beyond in

off shore lands to rule and plunder.

Dude your country pretty much INVENTED multi-national plundering.

Set the style and the standard, when America was STILL A COLONY.

In 1602, the Dutch revolutionized global trade, establishing factories,

ports and settlements all over the Pacific.

First Multinational Joint Stock Company

The Dutch East India Company was a first of its kind in Northern Europe,

having taken trade routes away from the Germanic Hanseatic League.

It was a joint stock company formed by investors.

This type of company had been used somewhat in Italy.

But in Spain and Portugal, the leading countries of exploration at the time,

it was unheard of....

To help make their trading more efficient the Dutch set up factories in Bandar, on the Persian Gulf,

and in Bantam on the Malay Archipelago. They also had a factory at Zeelander (modern day Taiwan)

but were expelled by Chinese forces in 1662.

By 1620, the Dutch East India Company was the biggest trading corporation

in all of Europe and a force to be reckoned with....

End of the Dutch Golden Age

The Dutch East India Company peaked in 1669, when they employed over 10,000 soldiers,

40 warships and 150 merchant ships. Internal struggles, coupled with unrest in their settlements

led to a decline for the joint stock company. At the same time, both England and France were

growing in power and establishing more oversea colonies. By the end of the 18th Century the

Dutch could no longer keep the English and French at bay in the Far East and the company was dissolved.

Besides the obvious 'Kettle calling the teapot black' aspect

you seem to have little understanding of America or Americans.

Seemingly only info distilled from some Euro trade unionists pamphlet.

"Americans are a joke"... nice, so classy!

350 million individuals and all are jokes to you...

Glad, I didn't meet you during my several trips to ENJOY Holland over the years.

It would have put an unnecessary edge on an otherwise fine visit.

[Groongthep]

1.) My point is that Asean is steadily coming under Chinese sphere of influence, first economically, then politically.

Really? Re-read your post that I originally responded to and you will see that the quote to which I was referring was your contention that there is a possiblity of Asean nations saying "<deleted> it" (your words not mine) to the US market and cort the Chinese market instead. I simply responded that that didn't make much sense. Why would any business person or business community within a country for that matter intentionally give up their best customer? You responded with some inane carrot and stick analogy. Wouldn't being one of someones biggest customers qualify as being quite an appealing carrot. Where the stick part of the analogy comes in eludes me. Did you really think that Hillary was going to threaten anybody but Burma?

I have agreed with your "new" point all along that Chinese influence will increase in the region. I just don't believe that that influence will include being much of a market for ASEAN manufactured goods since the Chinese already make plenty of the same type of products ASEAN has to export.

2.) There's no cold war, yet. However it is inevitable that China and US will eventually start fighting for all kinds of resources, the Earth is not infinite.

Not just China and the US but the entire world is already competing for resources, particularly energy. They have been for some time. The EU, India, Japan, Australia and just about everywhere else that is not fully self sufficient in natural resources is doing so as well, but I scoff at the notion, that it is "inevitable" that China and the US will start fighting over them. Both sides know they have too much to lose if that happens.

[Publicus]

And we well recall that the Dutch East India Company established a settlement in North America they named New Amsterdam which after the arrival of the Royal British Navy was renamed New York. (Jan Kee = Yankee = Yank.)

Also, I too am getting lost in the "he said-she said" going on. The one clear thing is that the US and PRChina well know they're competing more than other countries for the planet's finite natural resources. Each country knows they have to accommodate one another or be at each other's throats before too much longer. I share the views of many Chinese I speak with that there needs to be a G-2 in the world of the US and PRChina. Differences of systems of government and politics are the obstacle, which takes us back to square one.

Meanwhile, ASEAN is almost irrelevant to either country. Sec Clinton is here because it's a regional security forum (to which PRChina hasn't ever been invited by ASEAN). (VP Biden is in Eastern Europe rather loudly berating the consequences of Putin's policies while Obama in Washington continues ever so quietly to further develop relations with Russian Prez Medvedev.)

The Chinese I listen to speak of SE Asia only reactively, that is, whenever I mention that I'd been in Thailand for ten years (until Dec 07). The Chinese are dismissive of the region except to believe (mistakenly) that the "overseas Chinese" diaspora in SE Asia, as the Chinese refer to Chinese abroad, is loyally Chinese in their identity, instincts and cultural continuity. The completely erroneous nature of this belief within PRChina has been more than pointed out in this thread alone.

Further, the Chinese are quite taken aback when I point out that in the US the "overseas Chinese" are Chinese-Americans, hyphenated as we all are (technically perhaps). The point of the identity of "overseas Chinese" is quite a shock to the people in PRChina that I've discussed this with. Every one of them, to include my university English classes.

As I've pointed out above, the only attention the Chinese give to SE Asia is when it seems the "overseas Chinese" are involved, such as Thaksin in particular. We remember that China was Thaksin's means of escape from then impending Thai justice while T was at the venue of the Beijing Olympic Games (after having promised Thai authorities he'd return). Moreover, PRC authorities falsely had promised Thai authorities that T would not be allowed to escape Thai justice while visiting in Beijing.

Indeed, the Chinese praise their past accomplishments while simultaneously expressing contempt of their long history of emperors and imperial dynasties. That's the official Party line. The only time the Chinese mention Thailand is to show the chaos in Thailand on the only media the Chinese have, Central China TV or in the equally state owned and operated print media. So each time the reds and yellows go at it in Thailand I get questions from Chinese about what's wrong with Thailand. Many Chinese want to know why the (Sino-Thai) Thaksin and his people are getting such a bum rap.

I say to those Chinese who ask me about the seemingly perpetual chaos in Thailand the same as I've consistly posted here at ThaiVisa (and other forums in Thailand, the US and elsewhere). Thailand is an African democracy transported to SE ASia. Regardless, your suggestions are welcome.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Publicus

[brahmburgers]

Many Chinese want to know why the (Sino-Thai) Thaksin and his people are getting such a bum rap.

It's actually somewhat understandable why the Chinese would see Thaksin as a victim. They, like Chinese-descent Thaksin, worship money. Thaksin was wildly successful in amassing the stuff. In their view, it doesn't matter how it was gotten, the important thing is getting as much as possible. So, the Chinese perspective would probably be, "Wow Mr. Thaksin, you're so rich - Very respectable! All your detractors must just be so jealous they make up incriminating stories about you."

[Publicus]

Many Chinese want to know why the (Sino-Thai) Thaksin and his people are getting such a bum rap.

It's actually somewhat understandable why the Chinese would see Thaksin as a victim. They, like Chinese-descent Thaksin, worship money. Thaksin was wildly successful in amassing the stuff. In their view, it doesn't matter how it was gotten, the important thing is getting as much as possible. So, the Chinese perspective would probably be, "Wow Mr. Thaksin, you're so rich - Very respectable! All your detractors must just be so jealous they make up incriminating stories about you."

I'll buy that for sure.

I'm at a private university which has very high tuition and fees and I get paid very well for the 18 contact hours per week that I have, plus July and August paid vacation. The Chinese increasingly have money and like to throw it around. That's true of private tutorials too in which huge bucks are paid. (Come on down!)

But the Chinese are highly conscious of being Chinese and of having a deep history (much of which the official Party line repudiates, eg, monarchy). Their erroneous view of the loyal identity of the "overseas Chinese" to China further explains how the view is the natural consequence of their being so profoundly Chinese. Hence their attention throughout the world is given to things Chinese while nothing else much matters.

Nothing much in Thailand matters except the Sino-Thai Thaksin and his bunch. The Chinese really have a low regard of SE Asia to boot.

[Spee]

American people are a joke. The claim everything theirs, actually their whole country is made upon foreigners or foreigner influence. I hate that country.

Ok, you got that off your chest, ....you feel better now?

BTW, you can stop using everything Americans invented - if you want. You can start with the following items:

.... electricity ....

Americans "invented" electricity??

Wow, as one with a BSc Physics, I must admit that's a new one on me.

[Publicus]

We've developed a 'T' problem and this time it ain't Toxin.

[PeaceBlondie]

Americans also invented corn, squashes, chiles,chocolatl, potatl, tomatl (however mis-spelled or mis-pronounced), freedom of worship, the Edsel, the Corvair, the blow-jobs in the Oral Office...

[Plus]

"Fighting for the resources" doesn't mean actual wars, it will be a hot political war over disputed areas.

Both China and the US will fight for loyalty from smaller nations, to keep them as steady suppliers or as markets for their expanding companies. Huawei, for example, has made great inroads in Thai telecom market, though at the epxense of European, not American companies.

It's just a matter of time before they start stepping on American toes, too.

Or just wait until they start pushing their financial services. It would make sense if some Bananistan trade with China is financed by Chinese, not American banks.

I agree that Asean is not that important to either countries, but when it comes to votes either in the UN or WTO, Asean will count a lot.

Publicus, ordinary Chinese might be not interested in Thailand, it doesn't matter much, they do not set Chinese foreign policies.

>>>

As for giving the finger to your best customer - the US wants some actions in several areas, from IP to human trafficking, and Thais want reduced tariffs in return. If they get frustrated trying to satisfy US demands and come across some generous Chinese offer to make up for lost business - what do you think their reply to the US would be?

US tightening of sanctions on Burma hit Thai jewellry exporters very hard, for example. Being "democratic" might cost some serious money to Asean, that's why I say the US should bring really big carrots if it wants to see political pressure on Burma.

[Jingthing]

USA invented bubble gum, the atomic bomb, the internet, and TOILET PAPER. These colors don't runs (fast).

Edited July 24, 2009 by Jingthing

[webfact]

Americans also invented corn, squashes, chiles,chocolatl, potatl, tomatl (however mis-spelled or mis-pronounced), freedom of worship, the Edsel, the Corvair, the blow-jobs in the Oral Office...

[Spee]

Both China and the US will fight for loyalty from smaller nations, to keep them as steady suppliers or as markets for their expanding companies. Huawei, for example, has made great inroads in Thai telecom market, though at the expense of European, not American companies.

I beg to differ with the second statement.

China is a known world leader in intellectual property theft. Huawei was built upon intellectual property stolen from several European and American countries. Their growth has certainly been at the expense of American companies such as Cisco, Juniper, etc., and European companies such as Ericsson, Alcatel, Nokia, etc. Industry scuttlebutt is that Huawei completely reverse-engineered the Cisco IOS (internetwork operating system) over the course of 10-12 years, and they and other Chinese firms have been trying to do the same to a number of Microsoft products, too.

Huawei is able to sell equipment at lower cost because they have invested a few million in intellectual property theft instead of billions in R&D and acquisitions, and of course their production costs are likely to be lower. It remains to be seen whether or not their products have the quality to last through a 5-10 year operational lifetime.

As for the magnitude of the "great inroads in the Thai telecom market," I haven't seen any data to support that opinion or one to the contrary. Ericsson, Alcatel, Nokia, Cisco and other telecom OEMs have a large footprint in the ASEAN region, including Thailand. I found a few articles from the 2005 time frame indicating that Cisco had roughly a 70% market share in Thailand. Possibly this has changed over the past few years, but without evidence "great inroads" seems a bit subjective.

[Publicus]

"Fighting for the resources" doesn't mean actual wars, it will be a hot political war over disputed areas.

Both China and the US will fight for loyalty from smaller nations, to keep them as steady suppliers or as markets for their expanding companies. Huawei, for example, has made great inroads in Thai telecom market, though at the epxense of European, not American companies.

It's just a matter of time before they start stepping on American toes, too.

Or just wait until they start pushing their financial services. It would make sense if some Bananistan trade with China is financed by Chinese, not American banks.

I agree that Asean is not that important to either countries, but when it comes to votes either in the UN or WTO, Asean will count a lot.

Publicus, ordinary Chinese might be not interested in Thailand, it doesn't matter much, they do not set Chinese foreign policies.

>>>

As for giving the finger to your best customer - the US wants some actions in several areas, from IP to human trafficking, and Thais want reduced tariffs in return. If they get frustrated trying to satisfy US demands and come across some generous Chinese offer to make up for lost business - what do you think their reply to the US would be?

US tightening of sanctions on Burma hit Thai jewellry exporters very hard, for example. Being "democratic" might cost some serious money to Asean, that's why I say the US should bring really big carrots if it wants to see political pressure on Burma.

With a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate rotting away in Burma under house arrest, dusting furniture and the like, the US has to make some noises and take some actions but it has bigger fish in Afghanistan, the DPRK and the like. For reasons you explicitly stated, ie, votes in world organizations, the US isn't going to upset ASEAN members too much about very much, hence Sec Clinton's statements that things SEAsian basicaly are up to ASEAN itself.

Its a given the Chinese people don't make PRC foreign policy so I mention their attitude towards SEAsia to point out a snooty cultural factor up here in the Middle Kingdom.

The PRC hasn't ever been invited by ASEAN to attend ASEAN meetings, much less a regional security conference (the everyday Chinese haven't ever heard of ASEAN or NASA for that matter etc etc) so the PRC doesn't expect much from ASEAN countries at global organizations regardless.

Shanghai continues to need something like 300,000 more financial experts before it can become a global financial powerhouse so PRChina remains a long way from being able to step on the toes of the big guys.

The university students I have who are studying economics and trade, business and the like get their weekly dose in class of the Party line from the politics professor and that's all they know. This province is 3rd behind Beijing and Shanghai in development yet no one knows anything. (Both cities are too big, loud, dirty and crowded for me.) PRChina is a very long way from getting out in the world to compete because they don't know anything about political economy.

I advise my students and other Chinese, the same as I did in Thailand, that until they can read the Economist they won't be able to compete globally because they haven't any idea of the world outside of the ingrown universe of the Middle Kingdom.

The needed 300,000 wizzes in Shanghai alone aren't going to come from the educative system in PRChina either. In the aggregate, just the top two dozen other growing cities in PRChina need a couple of million experts who can initiate and operate systems of finance, banking and economics. So except for an occasional ingrown nail my toes are fine thank you.

"Foreign" television in the PRC is prohibited so all anyone knows is what the government's daily news programs present. The role of the internet is overplayed in PRChina as young people download old episodes of "Friends" and "Prison Break" and porn from Japan because people in PRChina don't want to know things they are prohibited knowing. It's not healthy to their career or family prospects.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Publicus

[Publicus]

Americans also invented corn, squashes, chiles,chocolatl, potatl, tomatl (however mis-spelled or mis-pronounced), freedom of worship, the Edsel, the Corvair, the blow-jobs in the Oral Office...

Oral Office is about the best one I've heard in all of this time since. I gotta say!

In China the students have to do an oral exercise each week and an Oral Test at the end of the semester...Chinese English faculty haven't any idea why I have to struggle during those moments of discussion of the fact at department meetings without cracking up...precious.

"Remember Ming Lee, oral test next week in this room, same time."

Edited July 24, 2009 by Publicus

[Publicus]

Yeah, these university students I have and their factory owner fathers take great pride in the fact they don't have to pay to view or have to deal in patents etc. To them getting technology and programing etc is a free ride so they love it.

They're missing the point completely of creativity, research and development and the whole ball of wax.

So I teach 'em the old cliche, "You make your bed, you sleep in it."

[Plus]

Huawei are the new suppliers for the likes of Ais, Dtac and Cat, and they used to have Nokia, Ericsson and Siemens bidding for contracts. Doesn't matter if Huawei ripped off/reverse engineered someone else's original designs. They are here now, and they are going to stay.

Chinese will certainly not become a global financial player any time soon, I said they might/will get their own financial houses to support bilateral trade with their vassal countries, and it is going to be a huge chunk of a total market.

[Lovia]

Until Thailand can produce manufactured goods of similar quality at

Hello there, similar quality to China? Are you kidding? I've always been of the mnid that Thai products were always superior to China in terms of quality, because of our workmanship and our dedication to the things we produce. The only thing we lagged behind China is the quantity. And as Thais knows, China do things very fast, but their products are crap. I don't think I have to prove it by giving out melamine flavoured milk,do I?

I'm not so sure there is much workmanship to be proud over...I know my wife avoids products with Thailand as manufacturer if there is an alternative...

One scandal with adulterated milk vs hushed up food scandals here with water-bottling, chickens etc...same level?

Nah,of course it isn't the same level. China's much worst.

China FYI, doesn't have only one scandal about melamine laced milk, there's also numerous poisonous toys, shoes-You name it, they've got the crap version of it, and they're exporting it to YOU.

The Chinese I know are happy to use cosmetics Thai produce, and CD-Rom also if they could, because they know their versions althogh cheaper, are genarally garanteed to fail on you within months of use. For example, when I buy my nike shoes, I tend to avoid Chinese products as I know that the workmanship can't be compared to Thailand's products. Clothes is another thing that if I have a choice, I won't buy their stuff, as it's of lower quality than Thai's products too. And as for your wife, she needs to know that her country have goods that can also rival other people's, it's just that we don't make much of it. Stop being a "Khee kha farang or jek or whatever"

[Lovia]

It's actually somewhat understandable why the Chinese would see Thaksin as a victim. They, like Chinese-descent Thaksin, worship money. Thaksin was wildly successful in amassing the stuff. In their view, it doesn't matter how it was gotten, the important thing is getting as much as possible. So, the Chinese perspective would probably be, "Wow Mr. Thaksin, you're so rich - Very respectable! All your detractors must just be so jealous they make up incriminating stories about you."

I'll buy that for sure.

I'm at a private university which has very high tuition and fees and I get paid very well for the 18 contact hours per week that I have, plus July and August paid vacation. The Chinese increasingly have money and like to throw it around. That's true of private tutorials too in which huge bucks are paid. (Come on down!)

But the Chinese are highly conscious of being Chinese and of having a deep history (much of which the official Party line repudiates, eg, monarchy). Their erroneous view of the loyal identity of the "overseas Chinese" to China further explains how the view is the natural consequence of their being so profoundly Chinese. Hence their attention throughout the world is given to things Chinese while nothing else much matters.

Nothing much in Thailand matters except the Sino-Thai Thaksin and his bunch. The Chinese really have a low regard of SE Asia to boot.

I could go on about their racists views of South East Asia, it's really a bum speaking to them in Chinese(they view me as their own, where I clearly wasn't) And knowing that they thinks South East Asia are a bunch of uncivilised barbarians....Not to mentioned their bigoted views about how they gives civilisation to Asia(which kinda reminds me of the USA) Can't wait for the day where these two bigoted nations who loves to force their ideals down people's throats to get a taste of their own medicine.