Thailand Rejects Clinton Call To Expel Burma From Asean

[Publicus]

After Jamie Rubin had completed the several years he spent as the principal spokesperson of the US Department of State during the Clinton Administration (Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs), he was asked in an interview what aspect of the position proved to be most extraordinary.

Rubin said it was the number of governments, NGOs and other private global organizations such as OXFAM that came to the US government to help solve their problems and to become involved in resolving their myriad difficulties and challenges. Rubin said virtually everyone, save the hardcore few such as N Korea, PRChina etc, was daily knocking on the door of the State Department to put the weight of the US behind their cause, morally, economically, politically etc.

Thing is, however, that that was true before Jamie Rubin pointed it out publically and it continues to be true. Correct, the world isn't perfect and neither is the United States. However, Bush and his Dick Cheney notwithstanding, the US on balance and in the long term has been and continues to present the best and most realistic possibility of advancing freedom, prosperity and human rights. Not to mention liberating subjugated peoples. I say the best, not the one and only.

Before the incorrigible bashers speak again, consider the glass house in which you live.

Also, at the conclusion of WWII when Thailand was still absent a monarch, the US actively foiled UK attempts to make Thailand a colony of the empire. Whilst the Brits during the Second World War had declared Thailand an ally of the enemy, the US because of the Seri Thai and the Thai Government in Exile in Washington throughout the War, declared Thailand to have been an ally. Indeed, the Brits (and I love 'em) in their pursuit of an even greater empire might well have mucked up Thailand too.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Publicus

[animatic]

irony –noun, plural -nies.

1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning:

the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.

2. Literature.

a. a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development,

an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.

b. (esp. in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give

full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., esp.

as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.

3. Socratic irony.

4. dramatic irony.

5. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.

6. the incongruity of this.

7. an objectively sardonic style of speech or writing.

8. an objectively or humorously sardonic utterance, disposition, quality, etc.

Origin:

1495–1505; < L īrōnīa < Gk eirōneía dissimulation, sarcasm, understatement, equiv. to eírōn a dissembler + -eia -y 3

sardonic –adjective

characterized by bitter or scornful derision; mocking; cynical; sneering: a sardonic grin.

We see this quite a bit more than well placed irony.

Coupled; Sardonic with irony we often get Sarcasm here.

A form of irony in which apparent praise conceals another, scornful meaning.

For example, a sarcastic remark directed at a person who consistently

arrives fifteen minutes late for appointments might be,

“Oh, you've arrived exactly on time!”

No doubt there will be dozens of apocryphal statements in this thread

purloined from arch Birchest sources or neo-post-trotskyite tracts,

but no matter, too many understand the realities, not just utopia's lost,

and understand that sour grapes alone do not make an intellectual feast.

[sunnymarky]

Why isn't ASEAN and Thailand in particular doing anything to rescue the Nobel Peace Laureate Suu Kyi from being sent off to rot and die in a prison in Burma? Suu Kyi won an election by a landslide and wants Burma to become a 'normal' country again. The dictatorship's newly concocted trial against her is about to to conclude and send her away for life in some hellhole of a prison in Burma.

Let's hope the renewed attention brought by Sec Clinton's remarks concerning the bogus trial of Suu Kyi by the fascist dictators of Burma can yield some positive result.

Only Asean can make the difference. What are you doing in this respect, Abhisit?

Absolutely, It's a shame and disgrace thats States turn a blind eye. Look at China. That Corrupt Communist state, that I lived in for 2 years , but its Party of government has a policy of not interfering in other countries. If neighbours of Military or communist countries all held a "non inteference" stance I wonder what the world would be like now. I guess China would have stood steadfastly against a Nazi dominated world if it had won WW2 , ready at the border to defend itself.

As far as Thailand goes , Abhsit is just a mouth piece for those in the corrupt businesses in the country who put him there. He will however be gone after the next election.

.

[Datsun240Z]

Clinton should reject Thailand, maybe a better idea.

[Publicus]

Thailand and ASEAN are behind the curve of history and of progress. After the Second World War democracies agreed that a single nation state had limited State Sovereignty, that the 'community of nations' could not morally or in reality stand by idly while a particular government of a single state violated the human rights of its citizens. Hence the UN Declaration of Human Rights as long ago as 1947.

ASEAN however continues in pursuing the thoroughly discredited Old World business as usual mode. These countries are out of the mainstream and are without conscience or shame.

[DagonKhan]

The statements by some people in here accusing American companies, aided by the US government, of investing in Myanmar are false and inaccurate. The two toughest positions on sanctions in the world are those effected by the USA and Canada.

Not really.

The US' involvement dates back to Unocal's investment in the Yadana gas field which was made prior to the US sanctions. The sanctions stated that any investment made prior to the date the sanctions came into effect were exempt. There were several US companies here doing business directly with the Myanmar Government prior to the sanctions that continued doing business afterwards, Qualcomm spring to mind with the CDMA telephone network. I'm not sure that they received any aid from the US government though, i doubt they would have needed it anyway.

So Unocal gets taken over by Chevron who remains a major shareholder in Yadana which is a primary source of foreign income. The US isn't particularly good at encouraging these sanctions when corporate profits are at stake....

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gncKIW...sm5419O3oCIGsog

So yes, I think people should be a little weary of believing the US 'holier-than-thou' policy of using sanctions.

Again, you ar pathetically wrong. The ban on companies doing business with Burma forces any compnay, even if they already have investments in that country, to pull out. Again, why do you sad people always have to bring the U.S. into this. You complain to high hel_l when the U.S. gets involved, then you complain to high hel_l when the U.S. doesn't get involved. Very sad. I'm not an isolationist but a small part of me would love to see what would become of the world if the U.S. just shut itself politically and militarily from the rest of the world. Interesting to see.

I'm sorry, you're totally wrong.

Maybe you'll take Chevron's word for it instead? http://www.chevron.com/search/?k=yadana&am...20Types&r=1

If you can't be right, you can at least be polite in your responses.

[DagonKhan]

Endofdays,

And whilst I'm at it, I shall provide a link to the US governments website that deals with the sanctions so you can get a better understanding of what the sanctions actually are from YOUR country:- http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/o...rma/burma.shtml

Here's the overview:- http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/o...burma/burma.pdf

Now perhaps you'll be good enough to enlighten us all what you feel these sanctions have achieved in the last 12 years?

[Publicus]

The bashers don't quit even when they have to organize themselves to resort to knowing and deliberate misrepresentations. I don't recommend people waste their time, but anyone certainly is welcome to visit the sites the bashers present above. In short, the campaign of the incorrigible bashers continues in their obsessive and compulsive efforts to make something out of nothing. Indeed, creative abilities can and should be utilized in better and positive ways.

[DagonKhan]

The bashers don't quit even when they have to organize themselves to resort to knowing and deliberate misrepresentations. I don't recommend people waste their time, but anyone certainly is welcome to visit the sites the bashers present above. In short, the campaign of the incorrigible bashers continues in their obsessive and compulsive efforts to make something out of nothing. Indeed, creative abilities can and should be utilized in better and positive ways.

I'm not bashing anyone, I don't need to.

But you go ahead and embarrass yourself if you wish, you're clearly totally out of your depth with regards to this subject. You weren't the one who claimed to have a professional interest in this were you? I hope not!

[Publicus]

The bashers consistently exhibit a pernicious compulsion to misrepresent at all levels, from the nation state to the individual poster.

A responsible reading of my posts to this thread demonstrates why I don't spend too much time trying to deal with those who are incorrigible. Because of their very nature, those who are compulsively incorrigible are necessarily and properly identified and dismissed.

The record shows that some don't care the Nobel Peace Laureate Aung San Suu Kyi, whose life's work to date was also recognized last week by Amnesty International is on trial in Burma and about to be thrown into a jungle prison to rot till she dies. This is our focus. Or is it?

Edited July 30, 2009 by Publicus

[DagonKhan]

The bashers consistently exhibit a pernicious compulsion to misrepresent at all levels, from the nation state to the individual poster.

A responsible reading of my posts to this thread demonstrates why I don't spend too much time trying to deal with those who are incorrigible. Because of their very nature, those who are compulsively incorrigible are necessarily and properly identified and dismissed.

The record shows that some don't care the Nobel Peace Laureate Aung San Suu Kyi, whose life's work to date was also recognized last week by Amnesty International is on trial in Burma and about to be thrown into a jungle prison to rot till she dies. This is our focus. Or is it?

You clearly haven't a clue what is happening over here. You were unaware of what sanctions your own country had placed, you're unaware that US and Canadian companies are still here, you're unaware that subsidaries of US companies continue to business with the Myanmar Government, you'll forgive me if I dismiss your ramblings as complete and utter rubbish!

Good luck with life.

[Publicus]

Over six decades I've learned much and have taught much and I do quite well, thank you. My posts about incorrigible bashers make that clear. My posts are on the record.

It would be healthy if you could get over and past your demons. But alas incorrigible is...incorrigible.

George Bush made it easier for you so I understand your ill temper.

[Publicus]

Back on topic, the verdict announcement is expected today in the bogus trial of Aung San Suu Kyi by the fascist generals in Burma.

Actually the verdict was reached before the trial began so we've always known what to expect today.

Sentencing is not expected today, however, so there is still time for ASEAN and Thailand to prevent this injustice.

[Publicus]

Verdict postponed.

It's announced now on the news that the verdict in the Suu Kyi bogus trial, which had been scheduled for today, is postponed until August 11th.

The 'judges' announced the postponement in a quick, 30 second session and adjourned. CNN reports the courtroom was well populated by diplomats from various countries to include several who flew from Bangkok. The reaction was of relief but also of great surprise.

Of course, no explanation of the postponement was given.

[animatic]

I suspect the high powered mass of observers and some grand financial inducement

from a large trading partner, who was asked/leveraged to discretely make a move,

has delayed things as negotiations continue.

Will dawn break over marble head?

who can tell, but as much as they like to posture,

these generals are NOT immune to all persuasions.

And 'The Lady' is worth saving from this death sentence by another name.

Sending her back to her home on the lake would STILL be better than Insein Prison.

Not the ideal outcome, but still a lesser evil. A survivable evil.

And just maybe these generals are realizing that her death in prison,

would break a lot of camels backs world wide, and maybe backing off benefits them.

They should just free her and get on with life.

Edited July 31, 2009 by animatic

[Publicus]

Colleagues and friends in both the US and the PRC say to me that the fascists running Burma are negotiating with the US directly for an easing of some sanctions by the US and for improved trade with the US and the rich EU countries, the latter thus being able to more conscienably trade and do more business with Burma. While in Thailand Sec Clinton publicly offered what's been quietly under discussion, i.e., both an easing of some sanctions against Burma and new trade opportunities with the US and others near and far.

These past few months the US has been leveraging the PRC to nudge Burma towards allowing Suu Kyi to remain under house arrest during the upcoming election charade that the fascists last year agreed to hold. Suu Kyi of course is ineligible to stand for office (she was married to a foreigner, a Brit, which is a new rule for this election fiasco), because the fascists running Burma fear Suu Kyi at home during the limited election instead of in prison would remain a factor and thus a threat. The fascists fear even a controlled election could get hairy (re: Iran recently).

Cooperation in this between the PRC and the US would help to further improve relations between the two governments and boost the credentions of each government in matters of particular concern to each. For the US human rights and democracy; for the PRC, to claim being a stablizing and peaceful influence in the East Asia region.

Indeed, the kangaroo court trial that began two months ago had been scheduled to conclude within a week but got dragged out over this period because negotiations were initiated by the US with some very quiet support by Abhisit's government.

There is some benefit to everyone and more benefit to others if some sanctions were lifted or eased and some profitable trade were reinstated or initiated. It's a delecate situation especially given Suu Kyi needs to agree to stand back from the bogus upcoming election.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Publicus

[sunnymarky]

Watch the documentary on youtube made by the brave journalists who are tortured ,and murdered when caught.

A good documentary on Aussie network in Thailand about this yesterday. And all these USA bashers (Iam not a US citizen)talking about other situations GET YOU HEAD OUT OF THE SAND. Talk about the misery now and put pressure on governments to do more.. The Thai government for one should be ashamed when Buddhists monks are tortured and murdered for protesting. I have a Thai friend who works for an aid agency , when he was there earlier this year he was unable to do anything really useful because of the spies and restrictions placed on him. The Military actually told him he "you must be a spy if you want to come to Burma". Abhsit and ASEAN , USELESS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6DfCLqLVUg&feature=PlayList&p=906E6CF8B07ED1B6&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=17

There are 9 parts in all. Watch it and see what really happens in not many miles from us in Thailand

[Publicus]

I provide two links below which deal with Burma and the nuclear program it's getting from N Korea and Russia; also mentioned prominently are Thailand, ASEAN, the UN, the US and the EU and their reactions individually and collectively.

The first link presents how PRChina is considering with ASEAN and the West the "Mandella Option" for Burma which would replace the paranoid nutters who control Burma with a democratically elected president Aung San Suu Kyi. For the PRC, it's not a matter of morality or democracy but rather fear of having two rogue nuclear states at opposite borders destablizing the entire region.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009...e_cat_diplomacy

The next link focuses on the how and the ways in which N Korea is selling nuclear technology to the fascist paranoid generals in Burma so the generals can forever preserve their iron grip on the country.

We need to think of how India would react and, by extension Pakistan, to a nuclear Burma. Thais too. This second link connects to the first in presenting why the PRC, the US, ASEAN, the UN, EU etc are considering the "Mandella Option" for Burma, which indeed would be as historic as the actual rise of Mandella himself in South Africa.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009...alarm?page=full

[zzaa09]

I provide two links below which deal with Burma and the nuclear program it's getting from N Korea and Russia; also mentioned prominently are Thailand, ASEAN, the UN, the US and the EU and their reactions individually and collectively.

The first link presents how PRChina is considering with ASEAN and the West the "Mandella Option" for Burma which would replace the paranoid nutters who control Burma with a democratically elected president Aung San Suu Kyi. For the PRC, it's not a matter of morality or democracy but rather fear of having two rogue nuclear states at opposite borders destablizing the entire region.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009...e_cat_diplomacy

The next link focuses on the how and the ways in which N Korea is selling nuclear technology to the fascist paranoid generals in Burma so the generals can forever preserve their iron grip on the country.

We need to think of how India would react and, by extension Pakistan, to a nuclear Burma. Thais too. This second link connects to the first in presenting why the PRC, the US, ASEAN, the UN, EU etc are considering the "Mandella Option" for Burma, which indeed would be as historic as the actual rise of Mandella himself in South Africa.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009...alarm?page=full

Needless fear mongering. And by the looks of your selected material, you've bought into it hook, line, and sinker.

[Publicus]

I provide two links below which deal with Burma and the nuclear program it's getting from N Korea and Russia; also mentioned prominently are Thailand, ASEAN, the UN, the US and the EU and their reactions individually and collectively.

The first link presents how PRChina is considering with ASEAN and the West the "Mandella Option" for Burma which would replace the paranoid nutters who control Burma with a democratically elected president Aung San Suu Kyi. For the PRC, it's not a matter of morality or democracy but rather fear of having two rogue nuclear states at opposite borders destablizing the entire region.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009...e_cat_diplomacy

The next link focuses on the how and the ways in which N Korea is selling nuclear technology to the fascist paranoid generals in Burma so the generals can forever preserve their iron grip on the country.

We need to think of how India would react and, by extension Pakistan, to a nuclear Burma. Thais too. This second link connects to the first in presenting why the PRC, the US, ASEAN, the UN, EU etc are considering the "Mandella Option" for Burma, which indeed would be as historic as the actual rise of Mandella himself in South Africa.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009...alarm?page=full

Needless fear mongering. And by the looks of your selected material, you've bought into it hook, line, and sinker.

The slected materials are for you and presented to advise anyone who might welcome being alerted or further informed. I'm in PRChina so I'm getting information from China Communist Party members themselves. The info I get is from certain faculty (cadre) at the university where I teach. The faculty must attend a CPC meeting each month to get the party line on everything to include current events and new policies, and newly developing policies are now being handed down concerning N Korea and Burma in particular. I see it in class when students I teach suddenly break the otherwise required silence in matters of politics by openly denouncing N Korea's nuclear recklessness. That's radical. That's a sea change.

There isn't anything specific or concrete in or from PRChina I can offer to people outside China to inform and advise those such as yourself of info I myself am getting. Hence the links which are sketchy but accurate.

China has lost control of N Korea. The PRC is in a quandry because it can't allow N Korea to fail either. Now Burma is making deals with N Korea and Russia to obtain nuclear capabilities. Do you find it difficult to recognize or comprehend that PRChina does not want TWO nuclear rogues states it cannot control at its borders, one in the vital northeast and the other at China's South, a stone's throw from Tibet to boot?

PRChina has all but concluded the generals in Burma have to go. The PRC just recently intervened decisively in Sri Lanka to conclude the civil war there favorably for the government. Now the converse question is how to rid Burma of its regime. I strongly suspect Thailand would have to be in the thick of the mix.

China is more than concerned about N Korea and Burma. So's everyone else.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Publicus

[Publicus]

There's an interesting story in the Washington Post at the link below about how the US principals involved put together the officially private trip by Bill Clinton to N Korea and of how the two captive Asian-American journalists communicated to their families by phone that the nutters in N Korea said the two would be released only if Bill Clinton came to N Korea to save them, which as we well know is how it happened.

Clinton went as a private citizen so he and Nobel Laureate Al Gore, employer of the two journalists, had to assemble, finance and arrange the private jet and trip privately. Pres Obama had to approve, which critically required that he order a rapid scramble at the Federal Avaition Administation to issue a waiver to the law that no private US registered aircraft could land in N Korea.

As one who worked in the Congress in Washington I can appreciate the hectic activity, in this instance to get the rescue done and accomplished before minds in the Hermit Kingdom might have abitrarily and whimsically changed, or diabolically attach new conditions to the rescue mission.

The Washgton Post piece isn't the complete inside story but it's got a lotta good stuff.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32309527/ns/wo...ton_postfrom/ET