Thailand 'elite' Program In Tatters

[Pooklook]

The total memberships equate to 2.5 billion baht in revenue, which has not all been declared in the company's annual financial statements. By law, Thai companies are permitted to spread income figures over a 10 year period, a practice which is stated in TPC's annual report (see graphic)

Mr Udom admitted that the company has been plagued with transparency problems, and some of its spending is now subject to investigation by the Office of the Auditor General.

The membership contract carries a clause that the company "reserves the right to change, revise, or withdraw the service without advance notice".

2.5 billion baht in revenue, which has not all been declared

plagued with transparency problems

change, revise, or withdraw the service without advance notice

[annielaurent]

The scheme was an ill judged & naive concept from the beginning, and was run by people who had no competence in a highly complex product discipline. Having designed & run such products for global airlines and other in the travel industry, and others, I can see no way that Elite can be turned into a viable business.

The core issue is that there is no consumer demand for such a product with a cost/benefit offer that is so lacking in value. The recommendation by Tammasart University is laughable in it's naivety, but then what would one expect from a study conducted by such an organisation.

Thailand has deep problems to solve in terms of tourism and the national airline. Elite is nothing more than a costly and time consuming minor side issue that needs to be dealt with once and for all. The country could recoup much more goodwill by simply returning the million baht fee to each member, and walk away from an initially unsustainable concept. Then it can focus on dealing with the intense global challenge of refurbishing a badly tarnished reputation and an industry that needs to deal with the fact that Thailand been sidelined by more attractive destinations.

Thailand has had many deep problems which it has ignored for years. This was possible while tourism was high and everyone believed in the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow on the beach. The regulations on buying property and home/apartment have always been torturous, a real haven for scam artists. So the government turns out to be one of the best scam artists with this "Elite" card!

Now with tourism down 49% in 2009 and no better prospects for 2010, you are quite right, it is past time to "refurbish a badly tarnished reputations......Thailand has been sideline by more attractive destinations". One of the greatest problems is that TAT and most of the governments as well as real estate agents believe their own hype! With many projects put on hold in this economic crisis we are way past the 100% sellout in one month phase of villa and condo sales. One of the best ways to start to attract retirees, middle class, and expats as well as investors is for Thai banks to start to offer mortgages/loans on purchases of property/homes. And I am not just talking about the numbered few offered through Bangkok Bank via its Singapore office.

Mauritius, Seychelles, Maldives and most of the Caribbean Isles offer mortgages or loans to non-citizens for the purchase of property. They all have attractive "schemes" ranging from no income tax, no property tax, duty free import of two cars and household goods within one year, no inheritance tax, etc. And they all are very transparent with the government banks guaranteeing the projects against default by the developers! These other islands appear to have less crime and while Thailand was so busy closing airports and making headlines to scare tourists and retirees away, the infrastructure on these isles have improved immensely. Unless you want only fully walled estates with draw bridges to protect the elite, it is about time to make owning here both legal and financially possible for most of us!

[norwayeagle]

These 4 pages remind me of the two ducklings:«There were two ducks in a pond. One said:"Quack." The other one said: "I was going to say that!"» Quack

[givenall]

They never protected the downside.

Nobody considered what would happen if they didn't meet sales targets. Now, will there be a refund to the card holders (2,570 times 1,000,000 baht) or just close shop and tell customers nothing. Either way, a scandalous scam from beginning to end.

Don’t worry too much these people can afford to lose these money. Same as what happened in the stock market

[nakachalet]

for those farangs who so very much desire to own chanods and perhaps houses in the kingdom of thailand

my friends let's plan ahead, shall we? perhaps, a generation ahead....

if we like and love thailand so very deeply, surely our diverse human ingenuities will tell us that perhaps we or our generation is quite definitely not able to legally own chanods and buildings in our life time.... right?

but who is to say that our thailand born boys and girls could not....? a slight twist.... slightly in our favour....?

however, the giant questions is, are we disciplined enough during our life time to prepare and save for our thailand born children, so they can buy chanods and houses in their own thai names....? so as we as the older generation perhaps can standup and boast about our ultimate goals and objectives being accomplished.... and perhaps seeing all these happening in our life time as well....

well, it is just an interesting thought inspired by the beautiful sunset (2009-07-2 sunday 18:00) along the most enchanting andaman coastal beach....

subsequently and perhaps whimsically as well....

that one day, our own thai children might be able to call some of these coastal areas--their own with our family names appearing on the chanod, legally.... lol

Edited July 26, 2009 by nakachalet

[cyb]

Thailand Elite was doomed to failure from the start, Why?

Thaksin started it and there is no chance of anyone getting a refund, If you think there is a chance. All i can say is wakeup, You must be asleep cos your dreaming.

Edited July 26, 2009 by cyb

[sassienie]

i agree with groucho marx:

i would never join a club that would have someone like me

for a member

No, that was Woody Allen`s quote from the film, Annie Hall.

And as for those who purchased the elite card, I`ll quote the title of the 1942 film starring Elizabeth Taylor: There`s one born every minute.

Edited July 26, 2009 by sassienie

[Nemo.]

They never protected the downside.

Nobody considered what would happen if they didn't meet sales targets. Now, will there be a refund to the card holders (2,570 times 1,000,000 baht) or just close shop and tell customers nothing. Either way, a scandalous scam from beginning to end.

This scheme was the typical Asian business plan

- no risk management

- business plan based on wildly optimistic forecasts (I remember the one for KLs (Malaysia) monorail business plan - if every train run 34 hours to full capacity the break even point number of passengers couldn't be reached lol)

- corruption (the IT system was an obvious examle of skimming most of the cash via corruption)

- poor implementation

- poor finnancial control and management

It is the reason why only family run businesses really succeed in Asia (even quoted companies are ususally run by a family mafia)

[Dougie]

Firstly the Thaksin Era started this crap to inject foreign capital into Thailand just part of another corrupt scheme in Thailand to suck cash out of foreigners. As well I find it interesting that these Elite card holders were not checked out for criminal records back in their home countries as this is a problem for Immigration Thailand. There are several Elite card members that are of criminal nature. So when the question is raised weather they should scrap the Thai Elite Card/Program/Scheme the answer is yes as well No one should be given back their money as many of them used this 1 Million Baht they put up as their payoff to stay in Thailand through a loophole. I wonder when Thaksin thought of this idea if he knew that he was collecting black money and the people that would join this kind of club or group or scam are going to be using it as their shield. Thaksin thanks again for your great scam that you are part of the problem not the solution.

[Dougie]

Does this mean that Thaksin and Thai Tourisim Authority of Thailand and Immigration Thailand Could be facing future charges of engaging Tourists or long stay farang in a scam for them to stay long time and be protected by Thailand by paying 1 Million Baht. What is Immigrations role in this if any? I assume that this was the works of Thaksin and some corrupt farang with money I am sure this was just an oversight by Thai Immigration because they are usually very observant and strict as well as Thai Police because they do not like to take money derrived from drug money

[thrilled]

i'm like that one guy,If they let people like me join,it can't be much of A club.

[Imkah]

Like so many countries or companies or schemes opting to cater for "high-end" customers, and forgetting the "bread-and-butter" basic customers, this plan also went down the drain. The choices made are wrong, very wrong. And might I say, very expensive.....for the deluded customers.

Middle class tourists bring in most money per head per day, not the mass tourist organised in groups, not the high end customers.

So woo the "disgusting" backpackers, because they will keep coming back, even when they get older and richer.

Well put - I'm afraid. Booked me a room not far from Kao San, wanted to check out what being a tourist in Bangkok felt like. Weird and a bit on the expensive side for someone entrenched in real life, but YES! The dirty kiddo's with backpacks will be back, they are still enjoying themselves. They probably sneak up to their rooms w. "fan an air" at only 1200 Baht to smoke a reefer before the next DVD show.

Yes, they'll be back to their favoured beach, kids 'n' all and spending more money, but can't really see them being part of the Thai Heritage. More like a Costa-del-Sol-kind of image. I don't like that image.

[humbug]

after reading one of the biggest sponsors of this website sunbeltasia produce a letter a few months back stating that this same anti-taksin government has endorsed by cabinet resolution the five year visa to carry on regardeless of the programme dying or not!!which has now been published in the royal gazzette

why hasnt this been brought to our attention rather than these pathetic anti taksin articles.

[Jimjim]

This program should be in the encyclopedia as an example of a "fiasco."

[humbug]

i have a work permit and it means maybe in the future i will be working in another country and i love thailand so these elite members i bet mostly paid for the programme to live a life in thailand for 5 or 10 15 years etc so now they have their wish

so heres the thing,why this website is so against this programme? i mean the thai royal family signed the document to allow the 5 year visa to continue regardless of the programme dying.

i mean honestly do you really think people give a rats ass about golf club and spAS,they bought the programme to live in thaind,lucky them,because i cant have my wish.

i say good luck to all those who can live in thailand

[SNGLIFE]

I agree with the notion of having multiple levels of an Elite card with escalating privileges. That may work.

Thinking they could sign up a million people wealthy enough to afford the plan they have now was dumb. People that wealthy probably have other places they need to be during the course of a year.

People that wealthy don't need to think about getting a discount ("See my card? I am a millionaire. I could buy your establishment if I wanted to. Now give me my THB 500 discount, please."

People that wealthy should be smart enough to know that they can find ways to "effectively" own land if they want it for less than the price of the card! People that wealthy don't NEED to stay in Thailand past 90 days - they can hop a quick flight to wherever and return with a new 90 day visa.

My ideal membership levels (cumulative):

THB 200k - you can stay in Thailand for 2 years. Renewable every 2 years.

THB 500k - you can stay in Thailand for 5 years plus golf, spa, etc. discounts. Renewable every 5 years.

THB 1M - you can work in Thailand with a THB 60k salary per month tax exemption for 10 years. Renewable every 10 years.

THB 2M - you can "buy" up to 1 rai of land anywhere except restricted areas. The government would actually hold title to the land and you would have a 10 year usufruct agreement with the government and right to convey the usufruct. Renewable every 10 years.

THB 5M+ - various perks (BMW transport, concierge services, etc. as per the current plan). Renewable every 10 years.

It would make sense to the punter because they are spending at least that much anyway - but instead of the money going to travel companies, it goes to the government. Travel companies will still have plenty of business from the <1 year visa punters they service now. AND less hassle for everyone. They could make it even more lucrative by tacking on a re-entry fee (THB 2-3k) if the punter leaves and comes back during the period. AND rather than issue card, immigration would do it all with just a simple special stamp which you would show when you need your benefits.

Who wouldn't be happily sign up for a card with benefits like these?!? Imagine the number of people who would be rushing for such benefits. They would make a killing on sheer volume and renewals.

Edited July 26, 2009 by SNGLIFE

[hoozer]

after reading one of the biggest sponsors of this website sunbeltasia produce a letter a few months back stating that this same anti-taksin government has endorsed by cabinet resolution the five year visa to carry on regardeless of the programme dying or not!!which has now been published in the royal gazzette

why hasnt this been brought to our attention rather than these pathetic anti taksin articles.

You raise a very important point.

Here is the Sunbelt posting:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Year-Special-Visa-t239102.html

However there is no update to advise whether the regulation was subsequently announced in the Royal Gazette, and that the five year visas are now being renewed. Did u see the Royal Gazette announcement?

[SiriusBlack1]

I would have bought one of the things just for a 5- or 10-year visa with no hassles, and family visa privileges. They could have sold it that way, plus maybe a few cost-free perks like VIP line at immigration, and they wouldn't have had to fork out a dime for golf courses and spas and such nonsense. But of course, nobody believed the Thai government would keep its word -- imagine that

Now it's just another black spot on Thailand's reputation as a tourist destination. Last one out, turn out the airport runway lights.

[annielaurent]

The scheme was an ill judged & naive concept from the beginning, and was run by people who had no competence in a highly complex product discipline. Having designed & run such products for global airlines and other in the travel industry, and others, I can see no way that Elite can be turned into a viable business.

The core issue is that there is no consumer demand for such a product with a cost/benefit offer that is so lacking in value. The recommendation by Tammasart University is laughable in it's naivety, but then what would one expect from a study conducted by such an organisation.

Thailand has deep problems to solve in terms of tourism and the national airline. Elite is nothing more than a costly and time consuming minor side issue that needs to be dealt with once and for all. The country could recoup much more goodwill by simply returning the million baht fee to each member, and walk away from an initially unsustainable concept. Then it can focus on dealing with the intense global challenge of refurbishing a badly tarnished reputation and an industry that needs to deal with the fact that Thailand been sidelined by more attractive destinations.

Thailand has had many deep problems which it has ignored for years. This was possible while tourism was high and everyone believed in the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow on the beach. The regulations on buying property and home/apartment have always been torturous, a real haven for scam artists. So the government turns out to be one of the best scam artists with this "Elite" card!

Now with tourism down 49% in 2009 and no better prospects for 2010, you are quite right, it is past time to "refurbish a badly tarnished reputations......Thailand has been sideline by more attractive destinations". One of the greatest problems is that TAT and most of the governments as well as real estate agents believe their own hype! With many projects put on hold in this economic crisis we are way past the 100% sellout in one month phase of villa and condo sales. One of the best ways to start to attract retirees, middle class, and expats as well as investors is for Thai banks to start to offer mortgages/loans on purchases of property/homes. And I am not just talking about the numbered few offered through Bangkok Bank via its Singapore office.

Mauritius, Seychelles, Maldives and most of the Caribbean Isles offer mortgages or loans to non-citizens for the purchase of property. They all have attractive "schemes" ranging from no income tax, no property tax, duty free import of two cars and household goods within one year, no inheritance tax, etc. And they all are very transparent with the government banks guaranteeing the projects against default by the developers! These other islands appear to have less crime and while Thailand was so busy closing airports and making headlines to scare tourists and retirees away, the infrastructure on these isles have improved immensely. Unless you want only fully walled estates with draw bridges to protect the elite, it is about time to make owning here both legal and financially possible for most of us!

After a few hours in the heat and sunshine, I realized I forgot a few points! My love of Thailand started when I was one of those backpackers who grew tired of picketing in Paris, London, etc during the Vietnam War. Then I became one of those middle class expats with a great job with a firm in BKK and wanted to 'buy into' my adopted home which just was not possible to do 'legally' or financially. Now that I have the money to buy the retirement home of my dreams, the convulutions in buying Thai property as a foreigner have not disappeared nor has the amount of 'squeeze' or 'bakshish' required. But worse yet is the uncertainty of owning a home in a development with all the bells and whistles . No matter where I go, I'll always be 'the foreigner' but I am thinking to opt out of the coming chaos unless someone offers me a 30 year visa and a 30 year mortgage on a home in my name not some sham company!

[seri thai]

This is just an extension of the Elite Thai mind set thats not going to change soon, most Thai business only survives due to protection and payoffs.   

The people they want or would need to sign up, don't spend there money on stupid plastic cards and membership in third rate clubs,  they get invitations.  They go where they are wanted and treated well, both with their business and their money.  If you want to do business in Thailand you have to beg for basic rights and be subject to an uncertain future.  

Nobody worth having is going to join ether club.

Oh so the Thai ELITE card doesn't actually make you a member of THE Thai Elite then? Some confusion there and maybe a bit of sales misrepresentation?

There's more to it than a bit of plastic obviously.....

[sassienie]

The scheme was an ill judged & naive concept from the beginning, and was run by people who had no competence in a highly complex product discipline. Having designed & run such products for global airlines and other in the travel industry, and others, I can see no way that Elite can be turned into a viable business.

The core issue is that there is no consumer demand for such a product with a cost/benefit offer that is so lacking in value. The recommendation by Tammasart University is laughable in it's naivety, but then what would one expect from a study conducted by such an organisation.

Thailand has deep problems to solve in terms of tourism and the national airline. Elite is nothing more than a costly and time consuming minor side issue that needs to be dealt with once and for all. The country could recoup much more goodwill by simply returning the million baht fee to each member, and walk away from an initially unsustainable concept. Then it can focus on dealing with the intense global challenge of refurbishing a badly tarnished reputation and an industry that needs to deal with the fact that Thailand been sidelined by more attractive destinations.

Thailand has had many deep problems which it has ignored for years. This was possible while tourism was high and everyone believed in the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow on the beach. The regulations on buying property and home/apartment have always been torturous, a real haven for scam artists. So the government turns out to be one of the best scam artists with this "Elite" card!

Now with tourism down 49% in 2009 and no better prospects for 2010, you are quite right, it is past time to "refurbish a badly tarnished reputations......Thailand has been sideline by more attractive destinations". One of the greatest problems is that TAT and most of the governments as well as real estate agents believe their own hype! With many projects put on hold in this economic crisis we are way past the 100% sellout in one month phase of villa and condo sales. One of the best ways to start to attract retirees, middle class, and expats as well as investors is for Thai banks to start to offer mortgages/loans on purchases of property/homes. And I am not just talking about the numbered few offered through Bangkok Bank via its Singapore office.

Mauritius, Seychelles, Maldives and most of the Caribbean Isles offer mortgages or loans to non-citizens for the purchase of property. They all have attractive "schemes" ranging from no income tax, no property tax, duty free import of two cars and household goods within one year, no inheritance tax, etc. And they all are very transparent with the government banks guaranteeing the projects against default by the developers! These other islands appear to have less crime and while Thailand was so busy closing airports and making headlines to scare tourists and retirees away, the infrastructure on these isles have improved immensely. Unless you want only fully walled estates with draw bridges to protect the elite, it is about time to make owning here both legal and financially possible for most of us!

After a few hours in the heat and sunshine, I realized I forgot a few points! My love of Thailand started when I was one of those backpackers who grew tired of picketing in Paris, London, etc during the Vietnam War. Then I became one of those middle class expats with a great job with a firm in BKK and wanted to 'buy into' my adopted home which just was not possible to do 'legally' or financially. Now that I have the money to buy the retirement home of my dreams, the convulutions in buying Thai property as a foreigner have not disappeared nor has the amount of 'squeeze' or 'bakshish' required. But worse yet is the uncertainty of owning a home in a development with all the bells and whistles w No matter where I go, I'll always be 'the foreigner' but I am thinking to opt out of the coming chaos unless someone offers me a 30 year visa and a 30 year mortgage on a home in my name not some sham company!

I have been a resident in Thailand on and off for 20 years. Now lived in Thailand permanently for the last 6 years and do have investments here.

I have always dreaded the thought of Westerners gaining any power in Thailand and been strongly against Farangs being permitted to own real estate and companies in their names.

But for the first time in my 20 years of Thailand experience, I agree with everything you say, which I can assure you is a one off for me.

Reading what you say about your background and how you worked your way up in Thailand, yes, someone like yourself, a veteran, who has been long established here should be permitted a permanent visa and certain rights such as land ownership as some sort of security for the future. Although I draw the line over ownership and control of businesses.

[cobra]

This was never about golf and spas,

It was about breezing thru Customs/Immigration.

The allure of coming and going as you wish, without any of the attendant onerous paper chase, just the presentation of a piece of plastic in one's wallet, well, almost has the same appeal as a Monopoly "Get Out of Jail for Free "card.

25K to many is nothing, and wouldn't think twice about paying a premium for convenience, or 1st Class on air carriers wouldn't exist.

Edited July 26, 2009 by cobra

[SNGLIFE]

The wife and I talk about that often. It's the major reservation I have had about putting any real money into Thailand.

I have always dreaded the thought of Westerners gaining any power in Thailand and been strongly against Farangs being permitted to own real estate and companies in their names.

Co-signed. See Hawaii for the example. Lots of million dollar homes and few Hawaiians who can afford to live in them. Thais are already being pushed of ancestral lands in prime areas and cannot afford to buy in those areas anymore.

[sbk]

Posts have been edited and inappropriate comments removed. Please let me remind everyone of the following rule as the next person to breach it will find more than just comments removed:

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation and comments of a political nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

[kiwiphil]

yuk yukk yukkk,,,,yawn,,,, ,,,fools & their $$ easily sep-a-rated, eh

but,,,, Mr " T " was the captain of that vessel ,,," what rocks " i hear whispered....

[cyb]

yuk yukk yukkk,,,,yawn,,,, ,,,fools & their $$ easily sep-a-rated, eh

but,,,, Mr " T " was the captain of that vessel ,,," what rocks " i hear whispered....

Is it possible just to have one thread on tv, Without someone playing the fool?

[tracer0]

Instead of an "Elite" card....convert the program to an "Every Man" card. For 100k baht...they could sell a more limited version specifically to ex-pats who know they will stay here for 5 years or more.....A 5 year visa? Renewable? I would buy it! Add in a few golf courses, or free domestic airline trips and they'll be lined up around the corner!

Why line up golfcourses? Or free trips... Most people with that much money would likely want the card for practical reasons.

NOT saving money on cars, playing golf etc... Ie sort out the visaregulations and make it easy to renew without a Thai goverment or immigration making problems without valid reasons. They only have to look at local news papers and TV to see that farangs donot complain about golf/spa massage prices.The owners of those places may complain though as they are the ones who will feel the loss!!

[wintermute]

The wife and I talk about that often. It's the major reservation I have had about putting any real money into Thailand.

I have always dreaded the thought of Westerners gaining any power in Thailand and been strongly against Farangs being permitted to own real estate and companies in their names.

Co-signed. See Hawaii for the example. Lots of million dollar homes and few Hawaiians who can afford to live in them. Thais are already being pushed of ancestral lands in prime areas and cannot afford to buy in those areas anymore.

In those cases it's rich Thais poaching the land off of poorer Thais. If it ever got to the point where farang were actually owning significant portions of land through trusts or something else you can bet there will be lots of stuff going on behind the scenes to take it back. They aren't stupid and the Thais with real clout can easily go around the fake foreigner ownership corporations set up to circumvent the law if they really wanted to take it back. As it is most of the prime real estate is owned by one national estate and I think we all know which one that is.

[doggie888888]

Your post has no relation to reality - you should have read the story. Only 200 (out of 2500+/-) members used the 5-year visa scheme.

I suspect it is actually YOUR post which has no relation to reality. You should not believe everything you read

Exactly!!! The "story" talks about renewals, and since many members are not due for the renewals yet, the actual "usage" rate now is low...wait another 2-3 years when more members' 5 years are up, I bet you there'll be at least 50% renewals.

[animatic]

Owning one to four rai of land shouldn't threaten anyone,

unless they are just to scared of losing control of EVERYTHING

that they can't stand the idea of less than 100% Thai ownership.

Bottom line is ALL countries have rich and poor, and the rich have more land,

and make more money on it. It has been and will always be so.

Every country, so far excepting China, that had tried interventions in this

land ownership paradigm,with in it's own people has gone tits up eventually.

China may well be on that path anyway. And there is no question the rich there

own larger tracts of 'prime land' per capita than the poor.

This should be differentiated from the idea of 'land reform' such as the taxing fallow private land idea

presently being mooted for Thailand. Thus preventing rich land owners from holding land

for no cost, just to prevent others using it, and thus going into economic competition using it.