Does Buddhism Use Fear, Indirectly Or Not, To Enlist Followers, As Do Many Religions?

[rockyysdt]

Many of us are familiar with negative psychological techniques used by religions in order to persuade us to become followers.

Such as:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

"Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hel_l: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them."

and many others.

It surprised to see the fear formula also used in Buddhism.

I've been reading a book entitled "The Four Noble Truths & Eightfold Noble Path" & was surprised to see fear indirectly being used.

Quote:

Which do you think is the more:

The flood of tears, which weeping & wailing you have shed upon this long way – hurrying & hastening through this round of rebirths, united with the undesired, separated from the desired this, or the waters of the four oceans?

Long time have you suffered the death of father & mother, of sons, daughters, brothers & sisters.

And whilst you were suffering, you have verily, shed more tears upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans.

Which do you think is the more:

The streams of blood, that through your being beheaded, have flowed upon this long way, or the waters in the four oceans?

Long time have you been caught as dacoits, or highwaymen, or adulterers, & through your being beheaded, verily more blood has flowed upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans.

Inconceivable is the beginning of this Samsara: not to be discovered is any first beginning of beings, who, obstructed by ignorance, & ensnared by craving, are hurrying & hastening through this round of rebirths.

And thus have you long time undergone suffering, undergone torment, undergone misfortune, & filled the graveyards full: verily, long enough to be dissatisfied with all the forms of existence, long enough to turn away, & free yourselves from them all.

Basically what is being said is that, although we may not be suffering much now, we will experience every conceivable pain & suffering imaginable, countless times until we realise our dilemma & escape from rebirth.

To learn that I will be skinned alive, boiled in oil, beheaded, tortured, experience the death of loved ones & suffer in many ways for eternity is pretty scary & perhaps more persuasive than the scenarios Christian sinners are subjected to. The only redeeming aspect is that one will be spared awareness between rebirths.

As the Buddha taught, I like to keep an open mind & was interested in what others may think.

Edited July 26, 2009 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

To learn that I will be skinned alive, boiled in oil, beheaded, tortured, experience the death of loved ones & suffer in many ways for eternity is pretty scary & perhaps more persuasive than the scenarios Christian sinners are subjected to. The only redeeming aspect is that one will be spared awareness between rebirths.

The redeeming aspect is that you can get out of it, right now, in this current life. The above were all common forms of punishment in many parts of the world for centuries, and that's just in the human realm. I think the Buddha's point was that if you are fairly comfortable now, don't get complacent and assume it will last (either in this life or the next). You have to get started and do something about it NOW. Don't forget that well over half of the Buddha's known disciples were Brahmins and merchants in comfortable circumstances rather than the poor and dispossessed.

There's more on this in Ven Narada's commentary on kammic ascent and descent. But the Buddha's main point is the last paragragh:

"And thus have you for long time undergone sufferings, undergone torment, undergone misfortune, and filled the graveyards full, verily long enough to be dissatisfied with every form of existence, long enough to turn away and free yourself from them all."

I think the Buddha is stating the obvious here: that there is suffering in life and comfortable circumstances now won't last. It's like global warming - people don't necessarily see the disaster that's coming and will have a profound effect on their children or grandchildren.

[Xangsamhua]

I had a look at the text at www.sacred-texts.com/bud/buddha2.htm, but didn't really see it as a 'fire and brimstone" sermon as in the evangelical renewal genre. Rather, it looked to me that the Buddha was saying: "Haven't you suffered enough?" and was teaching his audience the truths and pathway that would liberate them from the cycle of birth and death.

It could be seen as an indirect form of threat, I suppose, i.e. "this is what you are potentially in for if you adopt a lifestyle based on ignorance and greed", but there is a clear pathway out, and that is what the Buddha is showing and offering. In any case, I don't think he's saying that "sin" inevitably leads to eternal punishment, as in the fundamentalist or conservative Christian scenario.

I confess I haven't read the whole text.

[rockyysdt]

I had a look at the text at www.sacred-texts.com/bud/buddha2.htm, but didn't really see it as a 'fire and brimstone" sermon as in the evangelical renewal genre. Rather, it looked to me that the Buddha was saying: "Haven't you suffered enough?" and was teaching his audience the truths and pathway that would liberate them from the cycle of birth and death.

It could be seen as an indirect form of threat, I suppose, i.e. "this is what you are potentially in for if you adopt a lifestyle based on ignorance and greed", but there is a clear pathway out, and that is what the Buddha is showing and offering. In any case, I don't think he's saying that "sin" inevitably leads to eternal punishment, as in the fundamentalist or conservative Christian scenario.

I confess I haven't read the whole text.

The fear factor can be very strong in those who are attached to fear. Fear may compel some to embrace and believe in Buddhism in order to escape inevitable suffering.

The Noble Truth of Suffering is logical & can be demonstrated but the leap of faith is around rebirth & the passing on of khamma.

If this is our only life, then you may be able to do, think & speak unacceptable things & often get away with it.

The Buddha was quite clear when he said:

"Which do you think is the more: The streams of blood, that through your being beheaded, have flowed upon this long way, or the waters in the four oceans? Long time have you been caught as dacoits, or highwaymen, or adulterers, & through your being beheaded, verily more blood has flowed upon this long way than there is water in the four oceans.

The notion of accumulated khamma & rebirth for possibly an eternity exposes us all to unlimited permutations & combinations in terms of suffering.

Perhaps different in content compared to fundamentalist or conservative Christianity, it just seems to fit into the fear formula displayed by religions.

Edited July 26, 2009 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

The redeeming aspect is that you can get out of it, right now, in this current life. The above were all common forms of punishment in many parts of the world for centuries, and that's just in the human realm. I think the Buddha's point was that if you are fairly comfortable now, don't get complacent and assume it will last (either in this life or the next). You have to get started and do something about it NOW. Don't forget that well over half of the Buddha's known disciples were Brahmins and merchants in comfortable circumstances rather than the poor and dispossessed.

I suspect when speaking in terms approaching infinity then forms of punishment & suffering will never remain fixed or static.

When we look around the world aren't all manner of unspeakable horrors occurring on a daily?

Also doesn't punishment only encompass a small part of suffering, which includes grief, pain, depression & others.

"And thus have you for long time undergone sufferings, undergone torment, undergone misfortune, and filled the graveyards full, verily long enough to be dissatisfied with every form of existence, long enough to turn away and free yourself from them all."

I think the Buddha is stating the obvious here: that there is suffering in life and comfortable circumstances now won't last. It's like global warming - people don't necessarily see the disaster that's coming and will have a profound effect on their children or grandchildren.

The common factors I see with religions includes positives for those who embrace them & negatives if they choose to turn their backs.

The Buddha's teachings seem to include these ingredients.

The belief: Cycle of rebirth approaching infinity with accumulated khamma determining the level & type of suffering.

The benefit of adopting the word: Break the cycle of rebirth & achieve release from suffering.

The punishment of ignoring the word: Endless cycle of rebirth with all manner of horrific punishment & suffering.

The benefit: Public order.

Edited July 26, 2009 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

When we look around the world aren't all manner of unspeakable horrors occurring on a daily?

Yes! And practising Dhamma can help with that.

The common factors I see with religions includes positives for those who embrace them & negatives if they choose to turn their backs.

But with Buddhism you don't have to wait until the next life. On the one hand you experience fear in this life, and on the other the Buddha provides a remedy for it. That's very different from: "If you don't believe my religion you'll go to hel_l in the next life, if you do you'll go to Heaven." No proof provided.

The benefit of adopting the word: Break the cycle of rebirth & achieve release from suffering.

Or spend aeons in celestial realms frolicking with devas. But the real point is not "adopting the word" out of fear, it's following the self-help programme the Buddha gave us for a happy and fear-free life - proof provided by yourself and your own practice. Who would not want that? Who would not want to reach a point where they don't fear old age, sickness and death? And as a side benefit we get increased social harmony.

[zzaa09]

And what spiritualities promote fear? All religions are religions of peace and harmony....

[fabianfred]

Since Buddhism sees the past and future as infinite..... we have all been existing since beginningless time.... in every one of the 31 realms....as every kind of animal and person.....we have suffered every kind of death imaginable.... every hel_l...every heaven...... been there, done that...got all the T-shirts....but haven't learned.....are still making the same mistakes.....until on the very rare occasions when a Buddha appears and we can listen to the truth....and if wise, act upon it....

Normally like one who is sitting in the back seat of a driverless car....going out of control....but learning the truth and acting upon it, I have leaned over and grabbed the steering-wheel and am directing my life.

The worst possible suffering you could imagine in the human realm doesn't compare to the least amount in the hel_l realm. Realising that any suffering which comes to me is a result of my own past karma...having caused suffering to others.... I am happy to pay the bill now...in this life...rather than possibly have to pay it in a hel_l realm....

When we have had our meal in the restraunt we pay the bill before leaving.....otherwise if we try to escape without paying the police may catch us and send us to jail...far worse than simply paying the bill now.

Those who are unwilling to listen to the truth or are not yet ready to, will have to wait a long time before the next Buddhas teaching arrives, since they appear only rarely.

There is no knowledge of Nirvana and the way to escape Samsara when there is no buddha to teach it....so escape is only possible when his teaching is still available. During the long periods of darkness and ignorance there is no getting to Nirvana.

Nirvana cannot be reached by accident...only by practise and effort.

[agent69]

hiri-ottappa. Those are the words of the Buddha. Without hiri & ottappa, a person will commit a sinful act.

Hiri means the sense of shame from committing a sinful act. Ottappa means the fear of results of committing a sinful act. Whatever works, I guess.

This would mean that it is not a sin for having vindictive or negative thoughts. It becomes sinful if the negative actions have been committed. But what the negative thoughts are doing to us? Definitely it would not help us from reaching the enlightenment, ... if that is what we want.

[rockyysdt]

Don't get me wrong.

For whatever psychological reasons are driving me, I'm still behind what the Buddha taught & will travel down this path.

In the mean time my analytical side is responding logically to the Four Noble Truths.

Since Buddhism sees the past and future as infinite..... we have all been existing since beginningless time.... in every one of the 31 realms....as every kind of animal and person.....we have suffered every kind of death imaginable.... every hel_l...every heaven...... been there, done that...got all the T-shirts....but haven't learned.....are still making the same mistakes.....until on the very rare occasions when a Buddha appears and we can listen to the truth....and if wise, act upon it....

Normally like one who is sitting in the back seat of a driverless car....going out of control....but learning the truth and acting upon it, I have leaned over and grabbed the steering-wheel and am directing my life.

The worst possible suffering you could imagine in the human realm doesn't compare to the least amount in the hel_l realm. Realising that any suffering which comes to me is a result of my own past karma...having caused suffering to others.... I am happy to pay the bill now...in this life...rather than possibly have to pay it in a hel_l realm....

When we have had our meal in the restraunt we pay the bill before leaving.....otherwise if we try to escape without paying the police may catch us and send us to jail...far worse than simply paying the bill now.

Those who are unwilling to listen to the truth or are not yet ready to, will have to wait a long time before the next Buddhas teaching arrives, since they appear only rarely.

There is no knowledge of Nirvana and the way to escape Samsara when there is no buddha to teach it....so escape is only possible when his teaching is still available. During the long periods of darkness and ignorance there is no getting to Nirvana.

Nirvana cannot be reached by accident...only by practise and effort.

Much of what the Buddha taught is logical & plausible.

The issue is that key elements require a leap of faith & can't be proven by us unless we become enlightenment, something everyone agrees is remote & difficult achieve.

The leap of faith involves accepting:

Cycle of re birth.

Khamma fueling re birth.

Existence of realms other than ours.

Nirvana.

The only way these can be proven is by becoming enlightened.

The other issue is, what actually is Nirvana or Enlightenment?

Other than being permanent & unconditioned we're told what it's not.

Could Nirvana be "nothingness"?

Nothingness is also permanent & unconditioned, is free from re birth, & is void of craving, detachment, lust, rage, anger, delusion, grief, hatred & suffering.

In fact it's void of everything & could be described as peaceful.

Just as those amongst us who have been tormented in life & yearn for death to bring peace, in the same way if "nothingness" is Nirvana then this will surely end all suffering.

Mankind suffers, but isn't that part of life. Without life there would also be no happiness nor pleasure.

And if there is no ego, soul, spirit, or self then when it's extinguished (no rebirth), what is there but nothingness?

Edited July 27, 2009 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

Perhaps different in content compared to fundamentalist or conservative Christianity, it just seems to fit into the fear formula displayed by religions.

How often do you want to kill somebody but have been dissuaded because of fear?

How often have you wanted to steal something but have been dissuaded because of fear?

How often have you wanted to have sex with your best friends wife but have been dissuaded because of fear?

How often have you wanted to lie but have been dissuaded because of fear?

How often have you wanted to get drunk but have been dissuaded because of fear?

I'm guessing that fear hasn't played any part in your decisions, you've done the right thing not because of fear but because you have some wisdom and are basically a good person.

Even when you decide not to do things because you know what the consequences will be is that really fear? I'd call it wisdom, knowing what will happen because you've seen it happen before.

This is a far cry from telling people that they will experience eternal fire and brimstone if they don't sign up to your religion. Firstly because there is no proof of this fire and brimstone, and secondly the join your religion ploy is so obvious.

Unlike the above in Buddhism you can see the results of wrong action in this life and you need not become a Buddhist to avoid them, this is not fear just common sense, if somebody fears their next life I think they misunderstand Buddhism.

[fabianfred]

The buddha said that the greatest pleasure is peace....

If we see life as a pendulum swinging from the extreme of suffering to the extreme of pleasure.

As we get a deeper understanding of the dhamma and start to practice and realise its benefits, it will be for us as if the pendulum slows its swing and we experience less extremes, until we reach the state of nirvana where the pendulum stops in the middle....avoiding both extremes...just peace.

When we go out into the country and enjoy being with nature, perhaps walking or sitting beside a riverbank, we are neither happy nor sad, just peaceful and comfortable....as is nirvana.

No new karma is being created when we attain the state of nirvana, so no cause to be reborn in the 31 realms of samsara, but we still exist, in a form and state beyond the understanding of those still stuck in samsara.

In a higher dimension perhaps, but still able to take form and make ourselves known to beings still stuck in samsara, and help them..

[geriatrickid]

This is a far cry from telling people that they will experience eternal fire and brimstone if they don't sign up to your religion. Firstly because there is no proof of this fire and brimstone, and secondly the join your religion ploy is so obvious.

Unlike the above in Buddhism you can see the results of wrong action in this life and you need not become a Buddhist to avoid them, this is not fear just common sense, if somebody fears their next life I think they misunderstand Buddhism.

Perhaps fire and brimstone isn't employed, but karma is a handy device. I ask my friends why they do certain things and fear is indeed a major factor. Oh no, can't do, will bring bad luck or If I do, it will bring good. These are university graduates and yet they still demonstrate the cowering temperment of a flock of (insert the religion) believers.

Perhaps you may think I am muddling the issue, but I believe a great many monks are adept at manipulating the behaviours of people for their own benefit. Give generously to the temple and you will be blessed with good fortune etc. Don't give, and well, there could be unfortunate events.....

They may not threaten with eternal damnation as we know it in the west, but they can do a good job with the variation of suggesting negative consequences.

My friend often sleeps over on the weekend and he spends 5-10 minutes on his prayers every night. He's your typical Thai. I've asked him what he prays about and he tells me that he wishes for success in life, good luck and that his parents are watched over. I asked what happens if he doesn't pray. His reply is that maybe his prayers won't be answered and something could bad could happen. Ok, maybe that's not supposed to be the way the philosophy of the religion works, but I'd wager that's how most of the adherents see it. The question one could then ask is if it is an incorrect interpretation, where did they learn it? I'd suggest that such views and beliefs are propogated by their religion. We then end up with the fire and brimstone method, albeit in a more user friendly format.

[camerata]

I'd suggest that such views and beliefs are propogated by their religion.

I think those incorrect views are simply assumed by people who don't bother to learn about their own religion. And when some of those same people become monks (for all the wrong reasons), they spread them. But IMO that's different from saying they are propagated by "the religion." The religion is what's stated in the Pali Canon, not what 3-month monks and superstitious lay people tell us.

[camerata]

The issue is that key elements require a leap of faith & can't be proven by us unless we become enlightenment, something everyone agrees is remote & difficult achieve.

The leap of faith involves accepting:

Cycle of re birth.

Khamma fueling re birth.

Existence of realms other than ours.

Nirvana.

You might enjoy Jack Kornfield's new book, The Wise Heart. It's basically about how to get the benefits of the Buddha's teachings in this life. In one section Ajahn Chah laughs at Kornfield's doubts about rebirth and tells him "you don't need to believe in reincarnation to attain freedom."

[rockyysdt]

The issue is that key elements require a leap of faith & can't be proven by us unless we become enlightenment, something everyone agrees is remote & difficult achieve.

The leap of faith involves accepting:

Cycle of re birth.

Khamma fueling re birth.

Existence of realms other than ours.

Nirvana.

You might enjoy Jack Kornfield's new book, The Wise Heart. It's basically about how to get the benefits of the Buddha's teachings in this life. In one section Ajahn Chah laughs at Kornfield's doubts about rebirth and tells him "you don't need to believe in reincarnation to attain freedom."

I suppose I jumped a little early.

Outsiders would say that the path towards enlightenment requires many sacrifices & belief.

I should have realised that many of these sacrifices automatically take place as ones practice unfolds.

Our practice causes us to modifying our behavior over time because we learn that it's the right thing to do.

Thanks for the reference camerata.

I'll check the books availability and broaden my outlook.

[Brucenkhamen]

I'd suggest that such views and beliefs are propogated by their religion.

I think those incorrect views are simply assumed by people who don't bother to learn about their own religion. And when some of those same people become monks (for all the wrong reasons), they spread them. But IMO that's different from saying they are propagated by "the religion." The religion is what's stated in the Pali Canon, not what 3-month monks and superstitious lay people tell us.

I agree. I bet geriatrickid's friends are also afraid of Ghosts.

He also has a point though. I'm sure there are Buddhist clergy out there who feed off the fears of their followers, I just don't think that it's what Buddhism is really about which is where I think the OP was coming from.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Brucenkhamen

[camerata]

Outsiders would say that the path towards enlightenment requires many sacrifices & belief.

I should have realised that many of these sacrifices automatically take place as ones practice unfolds.

Our practice causes us to modifying our behavior over time because we learn that it's the right thing to do.

Right. If we think of something as a sacrifice while we are doing it, we have probably started to do it too soon. It should feel "right" at the time.

[geriatrickid]

I'd suggest that such views and beliefs are propogated by their religion.

I think those incorrect views are simply assumed by people who don't bother to learn about their own religion. And when some of those same people become monks (for all the wrong reasons), they spread them. But IMO that's different from saying they are propagated by "the religion." The religion is what's stated in the Pali Canon, not what 3-month monks and superstitious lay people tell us.

You are correct, but the issue is one of reality vs. what is supposed to be done or should be done. When an activity is common practice and allowed to continue, then it becomes part of that religion. I haven't seen any of the leaders or esteemed thinkers speak out against such practices. If they do not speak out or correct the inappropriate behaviour or interpretations, then they facilitate the misinterpretation of the teachings and beliefs and are just as responsible as the "3 monks". Allowing a practice to continue is in effect a tacit support of such an activity.

When I referred to my friend and his prayers, it should not be interpreted as a negative. He is not some ignorant oaf or given to a belief in ghosts. This is the way he was raised and taught. He was a monk for a month. He is thoughtful of others and behaves responsibly. He is a genuinely good person. If this is the way he was taught and this is the way his friends and colleagues think and behave, then the reality must be recognized. What one is supposed to do in theory is not what is done in practice by "everyday" people. On a higher level and at the purist level, I cannot dispute Camerata, nor would I even attempt it. However, if people are subject to the vagaries of a "fire & brimstone" approach, that's the reality, even if it is an incorrect application of the beliefs by those that are practicing it. Real life situation vs. what should occur in theory.

[fabianfred]

The carrot and stick of heaven and hel_l is useful for those of simple belief which covers most ordinary buddhists here in thailand.

Those who have studied and practice, and have a deeper understanding of the Dhamma should reach the point where they do good for the love of good, rather than to gain merit.

An Arahant produces only neutral karma which brings no result...and those who are determined to reach nirvana should try to do the same.

[Xangsamhua]

I'd suggest that such views and beliefs are propogated by their religion.

I think those incorrect views are simply assumed by people who don't bother to learn about their own religion. And when some of those same people become monks (for all the wrong reasons), they spread them. But IMO that's different from saying they are propagated by "the religion." The religion is what's stated in the Pali Canon, not what 3-month monks and superstitious lay people tell us.

I haven't seen any of the leaders or esteemed thinkers speak out against such practices. If they do not speak out or correct the inappropriate behaviour or interpretations, then they facilitate the misinterpretation of the teachings and beliefs and are just as responsible as the "3 monks". Allowing a practice to continue is in effect a tacit support of such an activity.

Yes, the Thai Sangha leaders seem to condone it. Perhaps that's why Santi Asoke was such a threat to them. It witnesses against popular practice where it contradicts the Buddha's teaching. I guess it's sufficiently marginalised now that it's no threat any more.

[toptuan]

Of course it does. Cutting through all the side-stepping in the above posts...

1) It promises a demotion to a lower lifeform (in your next life) if your current behavior warrants it

2) The teaching regarding the negative aspects of Karma as taught in Buddhism seek to instill fear in the hearts of those who behave badly.

That being said, I detect a somewhat anti-religious tone in the poster's title and OP. A teacher uses methods that could be construed as "fear" in a classroom when a student goes out of control. The fear of a policeman's handcuffs, nightstick or gun helps to keep the wayward elements of society in line. Your mom and dad probably had a few techniques to keep you "towing the mark" as well--which had an element of fear of punishment.

Religion, government, education, business, the family--I don't care what "system" you are taking about--respond to good or bad behavior by a system of rewards or punishments (the latter which has an element of fear).

To single out religion's participation in this fact of the human condition is to be a bit naive about the bigger picture of life.

Edited August 1, 2009 by toptuan

[phetaroi]

Of course it does. Cutting through all the side-stepping in the above posts...

1) It promises a demotion to a lower lifeform (in your next life) if your current behavior warrants it

2) The teaching regarding the negative aspects of Karma as taught in Buddhism seek to instill fear in the hearts of those who behave badly.

That being said, I detect a somewhat anti-religious tone in the poster's title and OP. A teacher uses methods that could be construed as "fear" in a classroom when a student goes out of control. The fear of a policeman's handcuffs, nightstick or gun helps to keep the wayward elements of society in line. Your mom and dad probably had a few techniques to keep you "towing the mark" as well--which had an element of fear of punishment.

Religion, government, education, business, the family--I don't care what "system" you are taking about--respond to good or bad behavior by a system of rewards or punishments (the latter which has an element of fear).

To single out religion's participation in this fact of the human condition is to be a bit naive about the bigger picture of life.

Well put. In fact, how can you have a moral code without consequences?