Pattaya: A Victim Of Social Engineering Or Just Bad Management?

[NanLaew]

Much has been made of Pattaya's "lowest low season on record" and posts on recent threads have pointed beyond the global recession and hinted that if Thailand (read Pattaya) had prepared itself better, then this loss of tourist revenues could have been averted.

As far as I can recall, Pattaya has always had a 'unique' status when it came to local administration, starting when it was granted 'special' City status by the Chonburi provincial authorities in the late 1970's. Whether this was a genuine first step in a development plan that simply lost it's way or was just meant to encourage and maintain revenue streams to certain local government individuals and other less visible entities at the time is an ongoing point of conjecture. Either way, when you stand back and look at her, Pattaya hasn't exactly flourished under this unique semi-autonomy. However, it's still the destination of choice for other provincial authorities on 'learning visits' as if there is truly something of value to be learned here and taken away to the remoter provinces for implementation. Or maybe they are just here for the sea, sand, body massages and karaoke bars.

When it comes to social engineering, I would say that Singapore's experiment is the most visible regional success story in that regard. I am sure that there's been smaller, more benign examples throughout Thailand's history; the banning of chewing betel nut springs to mind because is basically didn't look nice. Looked bad to whom? The locals who had been doing it for generations or the growing streams of tourists and potential foreign investors? But in more recent times, and despite the best efforts of various elected and non-elected governments, is there anything to suggest that there is a larger, more recent effort to change the country by social engineering? Have I missed something here? Can this not be simply stated as a national wish to grow beyond being a "sleepy fishing village for tourists" type of country into something of a regional agricultural and industrial powerhouse? I think Singapore and Hong Kong will retain the financial keys to the region but maybe Thailand wants something more than just export rice or build and supply bits and pieces of new technologies to foreign corporations. For example the local automobile industry has grown from just supplying parts for export to complete vehicle assembly and export. Thank goodness the Malaysians stubbed their toe so badly with their own home-grown 'national car' or I am pretty sure there would have been a similar woeful effort from Thailand.

Anyway, just looking for opinions on whether Pattaya's woes are just a smaller reflection of those that affect the whole country and what those local woes really are and their cures and causes. Or is Pattaya just a local aberration, a social blot on the landscape or whatever you want to call it... without getting into any heated debates about the overstated reasons why Pattaya came to exist in it's current form in the first place.

[samuibeachcomber]

sorry nanlaew but how about good mamagement,something for everyone!ok so it can be a bit rough round the edges but..............in the end i think it just evolved.

[BoSelecta]

Edited July 27, 2009 by BoSelecta

[kevkev1888]

So whats your point????

Pattaya is what it is!

Whats the/your problem???

[Spalpeen]

Nice to see someone raising the tone of debate on this forum.

We all know how Pattaya got started and the sex resort aspect will always be a part of it. It is currently going through a transition from being a resort town to being the second city of Thailand. Last year the Economist magazine rated Pattaya as one of the best placed cities in the world to ride out the current recession. When a city reaches a critical mass, as Pattaya has done, it's growth becomes self generating and the effect, good or bad, of local management will be no more than the effect an oxpicker bird standing on the back of a water buffalo.

[bobright]

Much has been made of Pattaya's "lowest low season on record" and posts on recent threads have pointed beyond the global recession and hinted that if Thailand (read Pattaya) had prepared itself better, then this loss of tourist revenues could have been averted.

As far as I can recall, Pattaya has always had a 'unique' status when it came to local administration, starting when it was granted 'special' City status by the Chonburi provincial authorities in the late 1970's. Whether this was a genuine first step in a development plan that simply lost it's way or was just meant to encourage and maintain revenue streams to certain local government individuals and other less visible entities at the time is an ongoing point of conjecture. Either way, when you stand back and look at her, Pattaya hasn't exactly flourished under this unique semi-autonomy. However, it's still the destination of choice for other provincial authorities on 'learning visits' as if there is truly something of value to be learned here and taken away to the remoter provinces for implementation. Or maybe they are just here for the sea, sand, body massages and karaoke bars.

When it comes to social engineering, I would say that Singapore's experiment is the most visible regional success story in that regard. I am sure that there's been smaller, more benign examples throughout Thailand's history; the banning of chewing betel nut springs to mind because is basically didn't look nice. Looked bad to whom? The locals who had been doing it for generations or the growing streams of tourists and potential foreign investors? But in more recent times, and despite the best efforts of various elected and non-elected governments, is there anything to suggest that there is a larger, more recent effort to change the country by social engineering? Have I missed something here? Can this not be simply stated as a national wish to grow beyond being a "sleepy fishing village for tourists" type of country into something of a regional agricultural and industrial powerhouse? I think Singapore and Hong Kong will retain the financial keys to the region but maybe Thailand wants something more than just export rice or build and supply bits and pieces of new technologies to foreign corporations. For example the local automobile industry has grown from just supplying parts for export to complete vehicle assembly and export. Thank goodness the Malaysians stubbed their toe so badly with their own home-grown 'national car' or I am pretty sure there would have been a similar woeful effort from Thailand.

Anyway, just looking for opinions on whether Pattaya's woes are just a smaller reflection of those that affect the whole country and what those local woes really are and their cures and causes. Or is Pattaya just a local aberration, a social blot on the landscape or whatever you want to call it... without getting into any heated debates about the overstated reasons why Pattaya came to exist in it's current form in the first place.

pattaya is not singapore , hong kong or malaysia. social engineering comes at a hefty price in the aforesaid places mentioned by nanlaew.. the freedoms found in pattaya is pricelss. pattaya is forever evolving. not sure about the aforesaid places. pattaya is a provincial town with an international flare. the others: they are amorphous to say the least. try being poor in hong kong and singapore. you 'll be trampled all over too like in pattaya. so what's so bad about pattaya when the poor can resort to temples for succour whereas the churches and temples in hong kong and sinngapore are locked up at night and the beaches and parks are out of bounds mostly.

[bobright]

So whats your point????

Pattaya is what it is!

Whats the/your problem???

yeah, nanglaew, what's your point? why don't you move to singapore or hong kong and live there for a while to see what you take for granted in pattaya. for starters, you will miss the freedom of expression like you have here at thaivisa - i.e. pattaya. censorship particularly in singapore is at paranoidal levels in throughout the whole country of singapore - unlike the pattaya township. remember, pattaya is a township unlike singapore or hongkong which are countries of much greater expense than pattaya. stop comparing apples with oranges. for social engineering success or failure, are you aware most expats are racially discriminated in singapore and hongkong. even the locals do not harmonise racially and dialectically and that's why they are the second and third countries in asia targetted by the terrorists after japan. so what great successs is there about social engineering in singapore? remember, singaporeans and hongkongers live at cut-throat paces unlike relaxing pattaya.

Edited July 27, 2009 by bobright

[JR Texas]

So whats your point????

Pattaya is what it is!

Whats the/your problem???

yeah, nanglaew, what's your point? why don't you move to singapore or hong kong and live there for a while to see what you take for granted in pattaya. for starters, you will miss the freedom of expression like you have here at thaivisa - i.e. pattaya. censorship particularly in singapore is at paranoidal levels in throughout the whole country of singapore - unlike the pattaya township. remember, pattaya is a township unlike singapore or hongkong which are countries of much greater expense than pattaya. stop comparing apples with oranges. for social engineering success or failure, are you aware most expats are racially discriminated in singapore and hongkong. even the locals do not harmonise racially and dialectically and that's why they are the second and third countries in asia targetted by the terrorists after japan. so what great successs is there about social engineering in singapore? remember, singaporeans and hongkongers live at cut-throat paces unlike relaxing pattaya.

The social engineering project--embraced by govt.officials, real estate hounds, and wealthy hotel owners--designed to attract the rich and famous w/ families (and get rid of the bar scene w/ expats that are not rich) has been a major disaster for the city. It reflects a mindset that is delusional. But this is both bad social engineering and poor city management.

[Ulysses G.]

OK, J.R. Texas, NOW you are talking!

[JR Texas]

OK, J.R. Texas, NOW you are talking!

Thank you.........lets go have a beer and celebrate! Maybe eat some Mexican food too.

I actually do want to see the city prosper, but in a way that embraces all categories of tourists.

Maybe that is because I come from a country that embraces all categories of tourists: America.

$ from the not so rich..........$$ from the middle class.........$$$ from the rich..........it all adds up and creates an interesting and diversified market for tourists.

It also means more, not less, money for cities that are involved in tourism.

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry to go off topic, but I believe that you finally found a good Mexican place in Bangkok. Is there anything at all in Pattaya these days?

It would certainly help to attract hungry expats (despite all the lousy social engineering and bad management)!

[zzaa09]

Comparatives aren't an intelligent {nor logical} manner in which to examine anything. Everything has it's place.....just because it is.

[NanLaew]

samuibeachcomber:- Evolution at it's best or slow metamorphosis? Since 'butterflies' are very common here, I reckon Pattaya may be in the ugly pupae stage right now.

kevkev:- Just trying to get other peoples opinions on WHY Pattaya "is what it is". No problem thanks.

spalpeen:- I do my best. Just seemed the sort of post that was needed to take some salient but off-topic sh!t away from the pattaya attractions thread.

bobright:- Evolving or mutating... same, same? I don't need to go live on Singapore or Hong Kong AGAIN in order to appreciate the 'inner beauty' of Pattaya thanks! I brought up the social engineering take on things because it surfaced in other threads, so just wondering exactly who is socially engineering what, if at all. Seems like you and kevkev take me for a Pattaya basher, sorry about that but it aint the case.

JR Texas:- So its a purely LOCAL social engineering plan? Not some government sanctioned master plan to change Pattaya into something else? Whew! I am glad for that since that means as soon as the entities you mention have got their cash out of the particular bit of 'engineering' that benefits them, then someone else can nose into the trough. Maybe social engineering is too grandiose a term and market manipulation is more appropriate. Either way, I can't see where they are really interested in what this new 'family tourist' demographic wants or even needs to actually come here.

UlysessG:- Mexican schmexican... I go to Texas for my fix as there's nothing in Pattaya that hits the spot. Where's this BKK place then? JR? Hmmm... wishing Pattaya was more like Cuncun eh?

zzaa09:- I wasn't comparing Pattaya to SIN, HKG or Malaysia, sorry if you misunderstood. Others have tried to compare Pattaya to what they think these local manipulators want it to be. But somehow I doubt these groups really want it to be a Monaco or St Tropez. I doubt they really care as long as the short-term objective of money in the bank is served. That could explain why the typical knee-jerk here has been to increase prices to milk the few that are still here versus offering price breaks to encourage more foreigners to come here.

Edited July 28, 2009 by NanLaew

[JR Texas]

Sorry to go off topic, but I believe that you finally found a good Mexican place in Bangkok. Is there anything at all in Pattaya these days?

It would certainly help to attract hungry expats (despite all the lousy social engineering and bad management)!

Really off topic, but:

The place with some decent food always makes me sick..........so I am not going to mention it.

But they do make good refried beans and beef tacos (hint.......across the street from a bar that sells subs 50 meters from the water and near the old pier).

Cantina Reef makes a good pork fajita plate.........and something called LA Burrito w/pork......I just don't like their beans, rice, or beef/chicken........or anything else on the menu.

I have long thought that a small kiosk selling tamales and chile rellenos and tacos would work in Pattaya (I know one place that does sell tacos, but it is not the real thing).

Maybe Jorge will decide one day to open a branch of Tacos and Salsa in Pattaya. It would cost a fortune, but such a place right on Walking Street would be a big hit.

[Chaimai]

I wasn't comparing Pattaya to SIN, HKG or Malaysia, sorry if you misunderstood. Others have tried to compare Pattaya to what they think these local manipulators want it to be.

Isn't that really the point here ?

You can't compare Pattaya to any other place. Sure, many other places have some of the individual attractions (and detractions) of Pattaya but none is directly comparable. Isn't it Pattaya's "unique-ness" that sets it apart - both positively and negatively ?

[NanLaew]

^ Good point. Maybe AC in the PI is the closest apple to this orange and I would say that tropo has a very good take on that comparison... and he choses Pattaya which speaks volumes.

So back to what is Pattaya trying to be... if anything? There's no known zoning laws for example. Has that been a good thing or a bad thing regards Pattaya's urban sprawl?

Maybe it's the more recent arrivals with their bigger investments in condo's and villa's in gated communities that want it to be 'like' some other places; maybe 'like' their previous investments in Iberia?

[brownknees]

I watched the BBC "Panorama" programme the other evening,it was all about the London Olympic development corporation and how they have literally bulldozed thier way through the east end of London to build the Olympic complex .Two case studies were of an Allotment garden society and a couple of streets of houses.All went through the planning applications and the replys from residents etc and the LDC won each time,compulsery purchase orders where issued and that was that!Perhaps Pattaya town hall could benefit from watching this prog?!!!So many times things are promised and never get done and we all know why.For example,rental of motor bikes,have they all been cleared of the streets!Of course not someone would lose money,never mind the nuisance caused by them.Anyone care to add to the list ?

^ Good point. Maybe AC in the PI is the closest apple to this orange and I would say that tropo has a very good take on that comparison... and he choses Pattaya which speaks volumes.

So back to what is Pattaya trying to be... if anything? There's no known zoning laws for example. Has that been a good thing or a bad thing regards Pattaya's urban sprawl?

Maybe it's the more recent arrivals with their bigger investments in condo's and villa's in gated communities that want it to be 'like' some other places; maybe 'like' their previous investments in Iberia?

[rgs2001uk]

I watched the BBC "Panorama" programme the other evening,it was all about the London Olympic development corporation and how they have literally bulldozed thier way through the east end of London to build the Olympic complex .Two case studies were of an Allotment garden society and a couple of streets of houses.All went through the planning applications and the replys from residents etc and the LDC won each time,compulsery purchase orders where issued and that was that!Perhaps Pattaya town hall could benefit from watching this prog?!!!So many times things are promised and never get done and we all know why.For example,rental of motor bikes,have they all been cleared of the streets!Of course not someone would lose money,never mind the nuisance caused by them.Anyone care to add to the list ?

^ Good point. Maybe AC in the PI is the closest apple to this orange and I would say that tropo has a very good take on that comparison... and he choses Pattaya which speaks volumes.

So back to what is Pattaya trying to be... if anything? There's no known zoning laws for example. Has that been a good thing or a bad thing regards Pattaya's urban sprawl?

Maybe it's the more recent arrivals with their bigger investments in condo's and villa's in gated communities that want it to be 'like' some other places; maybe 'like' their previous investments in Iberia?

You may find that these people actually own the street and the buildings on it, they will also control who can sell what on the street, usually other family members, or apply some kind of toll to others.

[tropo]

Pattaya is an extremely difficult matter for the government to tackle so I can't see them wanting to get too involved with it.

On one hand just about all laws and regulations are ignored in Pattaya. On the other hand it is very profitable and a great tourist attraction in its present state.

You can't have one without the other.

Pattaya is a profitable embarrassment to the government. "See no evil, hear no evil" is probably the way they handle it.

[NanLaew]

Pattaya is an extremely difficult matter for the government to tackle so I can't see them wanting to get too involved with it.

On one hand just about all laws and regulations are ignored in Pattaya. On the other hand it is very profitable and a great tourist attraction in its present state.

You can't have one without the other.

Pattaya is a profitable embarrassment to the government. "See no evil, hear no evil" is probably the way they handle it.

Exactly!

There's nothing quite like riding the ragged edge between Sodom & Gomorrah (where Pratumnak Hill just happens to be located).