Privy Council Denies Discussing Pardon Petition

[phupaman]

Hi All.

Ferwert, I just cannot see how you argue the point so seriously in favour of Thaksin.

You know the man has been tried and found Guilty in court, you know the money from the sale of Shin Corp is frozen in court yet he still jets around the world in his private plane, Or do you believe in Fairy stories you will be telling us next that he is not a terrorist /revolutionary who saved his wages when he was a corrupt policeman.and as for saying we talk about his sick follower's by the colour of their clothing, Ferwert they are Redshirts, or are you colour blind, and after the failed pitch at Songkran to bring him home in triumph, I would call them terrorist and try them all for high Treason.

The Queer ex prime ministers minister broadcast as much to the BBC just when it was happening and thankfully all their well laid plans went woefully wrong Thank God. I am glad that all his Family got back home safely, a lot of innocent Thais did not.

Phupaman

[Ferwert]

Hi All.

Ferwert, I just cannot see how you argue the point so seriously in favour of Thaksin.

You know the man has been tried and found Guilty in court, you know the money from the sale of Shin Corp is frozen in court yet he still jets around the world in his private plane, Or do you believe in Fairy stories you will be telling us next that he is not a terrorist /revolutionary who saved his wages when he was a corrupt policeman.and as for saying we talk about his sick follower's by the colour of their clothing, Ferwert they are Redshirts, or are you colour blind, and after the failed pitch at Songkran to bring him home in triumph, I would call them terrorist and try them all for high Treason.

The Queer ex prime ministers minister broadcast as much to the BBC just when it was happening and thankfully all their well laid plans went woefully wrong Thank God. I am glad that all his Family got back home safely, a lot of innocent Thais did not.

Phupaman

You are on the other end of the Thaksin love-hate spectrum/teeter totter from me Phupaman. How much do you weigh? I could be airbound...Gulp!

Edited July 30, 2009 by Ferwert

[lectito]

To get back to the original posting, the Corrections Department indicates that there are several steps involved in obtaining a pardon - several of which Thaksin may have difficulty with: www.correct.go.th/eng/RoyalPardon/IndividualRoyalPardon.pdf

1) Submit the application to either the Ministry of Justice or the Office of His Majesty's Principal Private Secretary. Or to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs if the applicant is a foreign citizen. (Thaksin?)

2) Petition is forwarded to Dept of Corrections.

3) Petition is forwarded to the Jail Warden where the prisoner is incarcerated. The Jail Warden needs to sign off on the application. (Thaksin may struggle with this requirement.)

4) Petition is returned to the Dept of Corrections to consider.

5) Petition is forwarded to the Ministry of Justice to consider.

6) Petition is forwarded to the Secretariat of the Cabinet to consider.

7) Petition is forwarded to the Office of His Majesty's Principal Private Secretary to consider.

8) The petition is forwarded to His Majesty to consider.

Each step could be dragged out for months/years, depending on how enthusiastic the people concerned are.

There is no specific point where the Privy Council formally considers a pardon petition. I'd suspect, though, that given their role is to advise His Majesty they may have some influence at step 8.

[Ferwert]

Regarding Hammered's post #30, surprisingly, I agree with some of what you say Hammered. I harp away on the one-person-one-vote electoral Democracy thing, and as you say, that is clear. This definitely separates the pro-democracy RS from the PAD/new-old paternalistic politics agenda. I posed your very valid question about other Democracy elements of the RS's, to my little red-hot-for-the-red-shirts wifey and advocate for the pro-democracy Red Shirt movement (red hot for the red shirts......for me??????????). The major point she made was the benefits that representative Democratic rule give to any country. She pointed out the relative prosperity and peacefullness of true Democracy's as compared to those countries that are paternalistically, oligarchically or dictatorially controlled. She indicated that truly representative government affects all aspects of governance, for everyone, not a select minority. Aspects such as the Economy, comparative wealth ratio's, justice without double-standards, education, transportation, Governmental services, Government responsiveness to its' electorate and people, the ability to regularly "turf the bums", officialdom attitudes to the governed, etc. etc. With respect to education which is her profession, she reminded me of the two impoverished teenage girls, previous students of hers and mine, who died in a tragic motorcycle accident. One of them had been accepted into University as a result of a program initiated by the Thaksin Government, and promptly cancelled by the current one. She lamented that now, girls from such poverty stricken villages had no chance at a University education. This lady/wifey speaks passionately about how the pre-Thaksin era differed hugely from what went on before, and after....and she backs it up with volumes of evidence, akin to this impoverished student example. She also spoke angrily about the double standards that can be itemized, and the anger out-there about this. A frequent sign at RS events is one that proclaims, "No justice, no peace"............ So there you have an ardent RS response Hammered. Not my Poly. Sci. educated drivel, but the insight of a schoolteacher steeped in Thai political history and involvement. Pretty good for someone with no Poly. Sci. training.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Ferwert

[webfact]

Military ordered to monitor the pardon petition

Defence Minister Prawit Wongsuwan on Thursday instructed the armed forces to monitor the signature campaign to endorse the petition seeking a royal pardon for ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

In his instruction, Prawit said the armed forces are obligated to uphold the monarchy and that the pardon petition is a sensitive issue impacting on the country's revered institution.

He ordered the military leaders to ensure social peace and safeguard the monarchy.

-- The Nation 2009/07/30

[slimdog]

The article 7 petition was never answered if I remember correctly. If the current petition is seen as contentious maybe a similar fate awaits it.

His Majesty rejected the call to invoke Article 7

source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/04/25...es_30002507.php

It is all about politics and propoganda anyway and always has been. Tactics and strategies to reach an end

On that you are absolutely right.

[Siripon]

The red shirts see a win win situation. If the pardon is granted - win

If the pardon is rejected, they hope it will sway some of those who signed to feel more sympathy for Thaksin.

Note that it will be submitted on August 7, the anniversary on the day the Thai Communist party started its war against the establishment.

The so called Finland declaration is looking more and more plausible day by day.

The pardon bid will go nowhere.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Siripon

[Sao Jiang Mai]

And what will the red shirts feel about our King when he doesn't grant them their wish? This is an untenable situation for our beloved monarch. He served the poor for 60 years and now Thaksinistas think that they owe their loyalty to a Prime Minister of six years? Disgraceful. And no, Ferwert, I am sorry, but I didn't understand a thing of what you or your wife was trying to say. Made no sense to me. Anecdotes abound and can be used to foward any argument, however asinine. Thai society has always had two standards; for the priviledged and for the rest. Thaksin did nothing to fundamentally change this. All the men in his cabinet were of the same ilk, human rights issues were not tackled, all he did was throw money at the poor - and put them in debt. There is nothing pro democratic about the red shirts. They want a criminal to come back to rule a divided nation. How about working within the frameworks of the law? Change does not happen over night. By the way I tried to interview the Rak Chiang Mai 51 group (pro-democracy red group according to Ferwert) and they have refused to answer all questions to the press...obviously they know they can't explain themselves and their (violent) actions.

[Plus]

I would genuinely be interested in knowing what version of democracy the red shirts support.

I would rather ask how red shirts reconcile their personality cult with ANY kind of democracy?

I also want to remind that Thaksin was banned from politics for a very serious offence against the same electoral democracy the red shirts are campaigning for. He has created fake parties with fake credentials and fake candidates and even went as far as to break into official election commission database and falsify official records.

Everybody must be equal before the law for ANY kind of democracy. Why do red shirts think that Thaksin deserves special treatment - i.e. not being punished for those actions?

[TAWP]

Ferwert> So your wife is a socialist?

Not an attack, but when people usually start talking about how things should be 'given' to people and made 'equal'...that is what they are.

Edited July 30, 2009 by TAWP

[zzaa09]

In the newpaper article, they are very carefull to avoid characterizing the pro-democracy red Shirts. They only speak in vague terms of a "Red Shirt movement" but are very careful to avoid adding any descriptive adjective that may give a hint as to what this amorphous "movement" is all about. This English media agenda which has so many Farangs ensnared, is adamantly opposed to ever suggesting, in even the tineist fraction, that there may be a "Democracy issue" here. That in spite of the primary reason for its' being - its' linkage to the Democracy issue. Same holds true for the anti-democracy "PAD/new-old paternalistic politics" characteristic. They obfuscate the real issues by focussing exclusively on superficial affinity clothing colours. This neatly side-steps the real issues at play. Wake up Farangs, especially those who come from deep democratic traditions. Know the difference!..................If I dissapear from this board, you will know why!....With regards to the 'petition', my sources in the pro-democracy Red shirts tell me that some pliable, politically influenced Proffs. from Chulalongkorn Universtity, along with some politicians gathered yesterday, and will soon issue a previously composed "solemn declaration" decrying the petition. I haven't heard anything from them about the Privy Council being involved. I think that is only speculation or a diversionary tactic by those whose interests are not well-served by this petition and everything it stands for. I also noted that the obligatory term 'fugitive' was not used.

Obsesed. Sure, we can discuss and rant; ramble on and debate; extend speculation and theories. The bottom line is it's not our business {directly}. They don't find it necessary to be like you, so it would be much wiser to keep your pushy Eurocentricities to yourself and observe from a distance.

[zzaa09]

Does the Privy Council have certain limited duties? Does that include receiving penitent beggings directly from convicted criminals admitting their crimes and pleading for mercy to be graciously granted by We-Know-Whom? Do the Council's duties require them to waste time on an irrelevant issue raised by sycophant supporters of a defiant criminal/revolutionary?

I do believe you and I are at opposite ends of the Thaksin love-hate spectrum Peaceblondie. I think it is much more crowded at your end then mine. The agenda-driven media is very effective............................. But I hope my posting #4 added some substance to the discussion.

You might try engaging in alternative sources and info, because it is available. Outside of the quite mainstream and established media {from all political perspectives} that most imbibe.

[rixalex]

There is nothing pro democratic about the red shirts.

And if there was they would have nothing to do with saving Thaksin's bacon, which if you haven't noticed Ferwert is the only thing they are commited to doing.

[Publicus]

Kult of Personality is exactly the point. It's as if these people were trying to bring back Joe Stalin or were worshiping Kim Jong Il/Kim Il Sung. Even in exile Napoleon Bonepart didn't have this kind of active clamoring among fanatic supporters. There isn't anything to commend in this madness.

It's dangerous absolutism to think or believe ONLY Thaksin embodies democracy in Thailand. As we've been witnessing the past several years, it's dangerous in the extreme.

[zzaa09]

There is nothing pro democratic about the red shirts.

....nor the yellows.

[hansnl]

Ferwert.....Ferwert.....where did I see that name before.

As I see it, the non-Thai press mostly call Mr. T. "the deposed".

They forget to mention that he was also convicted.

I do find that the press outside Thailand is mostly quite positively inclined to him.

Although, lately, the reporters seem to become better informed, and getting less positively inclined

After disposal of Mr T, I gather there were polls?

Wasn't there a coalition of some parties, led by an accomplice of Mr T being a member of the biggest fraction in the Parliament?

Wasn't there another coalition after some time, made up of several parties, led by the opposing second biggest fraction?

I can only conclude that the governments after the polls were and are legal.

All I see is a lot of disrupting forces directed into Thailand.

That is not what Thailand needs, most certainly not now.

And I do believe that who wants to trust a politician, is a fool.

There are no clean, honest politicians, nowhere in the world.

Oh well, maybe a few.

They are in politics for money, attention, power....whatever.

But most certainly not for the betterment of the voters, or the people.

[Publicus]

There is nothing pro democratic about the red shirts.

....nor the yellows.

It's the Thailand Rocky Horror Picture Show live and in color.

[webfact]

Interior Ministry to allow signers of pardon petition to recant

Interior Minister Chaovarat Chanweerakul on Thursday instructed local authorities nationwide to launch a counter-signature campaign for petition signers to recant their endorsement to a royal pardon for ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

Petition signers can renounce the pardon petition beginning Friday at all provincial and district offices.

"I have been informed that many people now realise the truth and want to withdrawal their names, therefore I have ordered every province and district to set up a table for the people to sign and recant the petition," Chaovarat said.

-- The Nation 2009/07/30

[Publicus]

Methinks the problem to this new twist, and to each and every, never ending new twist is that each side thinks they're clever. More clever than the other. Meanwhile, they mindlessly continue to drive Thailand deeper into its abyss.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Publicus

[Insight]

So - correct me if I'm wrong here - but Ferwert assumes farang residents are anti-Thaksin because of what they read in the local media?

That may have a slight influence here and there, but I ultimately share the opinion of the people I work with, as I would imagine most other farang would, who are surrounded by Thai people day-in, day out.

Hopefully nobody will embarrass themselves by mentioning bars; the staff of which generally tend to side with the reds (if anywhere at all).

[Publicus]

In this thread the poster being discussed has eased off his incessant wont to assign all beliefs, opinons and conclusions we farang have as being determined by the English language mass media of Thailand, the print media in particular, so I am cautious not to get him fired up yet again. However, he is what he is.

So I would state that my experience in journalism print media in particular, and my master degree in Journalism along with my experience teaching journalism at the university level, all in the US, impell me to offer a professional perspective which I'd hope could calm the waters here.

Ferwert persistently claims the Thai English language press successfully deceives us by illicitly presenting the anti-Thaksin and anti-democracy prejudice he wrongly perceives it to have in in the quise of a "balanced objective journalism mode." Aside from trying endlessly to insult our intelligence, the poster erroneously represents the style of the Thai English language media.

He mistakenly applies the standards of a classic US style of journalism as the standards of the present day Thai English language print media. Indeed, only the classic "wire" agencies continue to use the antiquated standard Ferwert ascribes to the Thai English media. In particular, only organizations which serve hundreds of subscriber clients (newspapers) necessarily continue to adhere to the classic style of "objective" journalism as it was once defined. Three that most immediately come to mind are the Associated Press (AP) in the US, Reuters in the UK and Agence France Presse of France.

The once requisite "objective" news reporting mode was succeeded some 30 years ago by the narrative and interpretive news reporting style. So, for instance, when Fox News in the US says, "We report, you decide," Fox is being disingenuious at best. More properly, the Fox slogan might better be, "We interpret and narrate, you analyze and sort it out."

The Thai English language print media do similarly present a considerable amount of interpretive narrative by the writer rather than utilize the classic format of presenting numerous direct quotes by the principals being reported. The interpretative narrative news reporting style is central to that which some 30 years ago was identified as the "New Journalism." This now standard journalism is daily practiced in the US and elsewhere in the native English speaking world. Narrative based print journalism is in fact the journalism we whose native language is English have become accustomed to reading.

In short, Ferwert assigns to us an inability to read narrative news stories as what they are, i.e,. the writer's interpretive account of people, places and things. He presumes we are undereducated Thai peasants who can be mislead as equally as Thaksin misleads the peasantry of Thailand.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Publicus

[Plus]

Nation Group is a publicly traded company, they are not "agenised" propagand outlet. They have to sell the news that people would pay for.

And The Nation itself is only one of their publications, the rest are in Thai, and the majority of The Nation readership are Thais as well, and, frankly, their editors do not particularly care what we, farangs, have so say anyway.

Reds themselves complain that ALL Thai media is biased against them, that's why they feel the need for their own media outlets, like some ufologists.

>>>

I also don't understand that "Thaksin yardstick" - everyone is measured on a Thaksin hate-love scale. I think it's a bizarre view of the world, can't think of an example, but remember that father in My Big Fat Greek Wedding? The guy who tried to explain how every word in English has Greek roots, including kimono? Everything was Greek deriviation for him. It was cute, in a senile kind of way.

Most posters on this board judge things by what they think is right and wrong, pro-democratic or anti. They simply apply these criteria to Thaksin, that's all.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Plus

[Ferwert]

Publicus - thank you for that very informative background discussion about variant forms of journalistic reporting. Very interesting. Ya got me fired up Publicus, sorry about that. You appear to have a very professional grounding in journalism, and I certainly accede to you superior knowledge. Journalism was a secondary consideration of mine when pursuing a University education. Yeah, I look for objectivity in news coverage, and perhaps the reason I am so disgusted by the other kind, is because of my close proximity to "the story here", namely the pro-democracy RS's" and the subsequent coverage. I cannot recall being that close to any news story before. Previously I tended to believe what I read and hoped it was objective. But as you say, that was probably naiive and dated. I know you are absolutely correct about your characterization of Fox news. But that I see. Their agenized version is blatantly apparent to me, because I come from the opposite political pursuasion. So what that tells me, is that when the news agrees with one's basic ideas, it is seen as objective and when not, it is perceived as agenized. And that puts the Thai domestic media squarly in my sights. They are so opposite to my political inclination that their extreme agenized approach grates and aggravates me. Then when I read Farang pontification mirroring and parroting with almost identical language, it causes me to really want to challenge that. I am very pro-Farang, and also feel violated when I hear of Farangs having very costly, unfortunate experiences in this culture. I also want to see them fully informed so that they are a cut-above this Thai obfuscation. I am fortunate to be associated with a very professional, mature, politically savy wifey, who backs up all her opinions with historical data. She turned me around from being an impressionable believer of the Thai domestic media, to a more balanced position, that just happens to coincide with my political beliefs. With very strong feelings of electoral Democracy by far being the superior manner of the governed selecting their governors, and that such a system is not culture specific. Anyway, thank you for your efforts to educate this naiive consumer of journalistic endeavours. Not sure if it will prevent my ranting, but I will try to contain myself.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Ferwert

[Sao Jiang Mai]

There is nothing pro democratic about the red shirts.

....nor the yellows.

Agreed. But we weren't discussing the yellows. After they made the decision to become a political party, they lost huge support and credibility among their ranks and files. As reds have lost credibility by focusing on Thaksin. Two wrongs do not make it right. Right now reds are active and that is why we are talking about them. Yellow is passe...or should be.

[xminator]

Staying on topic, I doubt the Privy Council's duties require them to act on third-party petitions.

Heaven forbid they let the King they are placed to serve in the first place decide what or what not He want to act on.

[Publicus]

It's a pleasure to meet Ferwert the gentleman. Thanks for your generous statements as they have taught me more about people than I knew before. Had you gone into journalism our paths might have crossed sooner to the benefit of each of us, I'd like to think. That you watch the Fox Network because you disagree is a revelation that is, I would offer, pleasing to many of us and intellectually commendable. I myself lazily watch MSNBC because I agree with them and like what they say; they often elicit a chuckle from within me that is good for the blood pressure.

Which of course speaks to the interpretative narrative style of contemporary journalism whether print or airborne. I'm reminded of then Pres Reagan when he saw the surgeons in the OR after having been shot, "I hope you guys are Republicans." Objectivity fortunately continues to exist but has become a rare beast indeed. It's all but extinct in contemporary journalism.

However, always of concern in the profession is the smelly and grungy beast known as "Pack Journalism," which is always derided within the craft but too often present. When journalists talk more with one another than with anyone else we tend to get a common theme in most or many outlets of reporting both in print and via the airwaves. Sometimes the culture of the larger society possesses the scribes and produces uniformity or commonality in reporting, but neither flaw serves us well.

Good citizens who are attentive to the news in whatever form presented, such as we who read and post here, can be ill served by Pack Journalism. Indeed, it is at times realistic to believe that we are hearing from our neighbor or coworker almost exactly what was printed in the newspaper that very morning, or said on the news the previous day.

It's often said the challenge when we think or believe we are hearing such echos is to finesse the distinction between treating the fellow citizen as a person of intellectual maturity who has had a distracting lapse of concentration or attention vs trying to treat the well meaning good citizen as a fool or as having a sub-intellect. This is neither difficult nor impossible for the great majority of people I know.

Catch you here and elsewhere at the Forum.

[rixalex]

There is nothing pro democratic about the red shirts.

....nor the yellows.

Agreed. But we weren't discussing the yellows. After they made the decision to become a political party, they lost huge support and credibility among their ranks and files. As reds have lost credibility by focusing on Thaksin. Two wrongs do not make it right. Right now reds are active and that is why we are talking about them. Yellow is passe...or should be.

Just the normal M.O. with all the Thaksin fanatics. Throw a question their way that they have no answer for, like: "if the red-shirts are pro-democracy, why are they wasting all their time helping the causes of one very rich man who is a convicted criminal and who suffocated democracy and prevented it working freely and fairly when he was in power?", and all you'll get back from them is some sort of a retort about the PAD, or the yellow shirts, or the Democrats, or the generals, being worse, or having been worse at some time in the past.

You see for them crimes can be justified - all you have to do is look around for someone who has allegedly commited worse and that all somehow makes things ok.

[rixalex]

It's a pleasure to meet Ferwert the gentleman.

A gentleman?

Most gentlemen i meet don't tell me everyday that i'm too stupid to form an educated opinion on an issue without being fooled by bias in the local media that they alone are clever enough to perceive.

[Samuian]

Can't Thaksin do it himself?

Well, you are right he could - but then he couldn't involve

"the people who love him so much" and use "the people" to

"bring him come home".... sicko!

this guy... the x-tra topping on the pizza was his birthday ballad..

the line "when a bruised man comes home.." sicko!

He can come back anytime - but he wants the clearance first!

"HIS" money back - all or nothin' at the expense of an entire nation!

[animatic]

I would genuinely be interested in knowing what version of democracy the red shirts support.

I would rather ask how red shirts reconcile their personality cult with ANY kind of democracy?

I also want to remind that Thaksin was banned from politics for a very serious offence against the same electoral democracy the red shirts are campaigning for. He has created fake parties with fake credentials and fake candidates and even went as far as to break into official election commission database and falsify official records.

Everybody must be equal before the law for ANY kind of democracy. Why do red shirts think that Thaksin deserves special treatment - i.e. not being punished for those actions?

Yes these MAJOR points have been left out of the debate for too long.

Thanks for the timely reminder of still MORE convictions of Thaksin's minions AND Thaksin himself.

Oh yes and THESE criminal political actions were committed under 1997 constitution,

and BEFORE the coup and tried based on laws from before. WHILE Thaksin was still Caretaker PM.

But after he had dissolved the government to white wash his Temasek sale of national assets to foreigners.

The following constitution changed some fundamental basis laws, or added some

but didn't throw out the regular laws of the land.

Yet that set of constitutional changes are/were irrelevant to TRT's demise.

They cheated and broke SEVERAL laws and were duly disbanded.

"created fake parties

with fake credentials

and fake candidates

and even went as far as to break into official election commission database

and falsify official records."

Just so TRT could 'Run Opposed"

and thus significantly lower the threshold of votes needed to win a seat.

In other words

TRT was worried many of their candidates could NOT get enough votes running unopposed.

But lets bring back to the trough these fraudsters and cheats for the sake of 'national resolution'.

What a cheap idea and degrading to the entire Thai populous.

Of course these points will not be lost on the privy council.

And one of their jobs is to shield HM from such triffles as ill intentioned politicians,

and those wishing to use the royal position for gain...

Maybe they advise who gets to be 'given the care and feeding of White Elephants'?

Thaksin deserves a small herd!

Edited July 31, 2009 by animatic